The 3D Plan: Shhhhhhhhh...I Dont Love my Fiance...

[Popcorn Henry 0]

Just an opinion.

My soon to be wife and I had some fun talk last night on the phone.

She went to complete her medical appt and she mentioned to me that

"She found one" lol

I was confused at first what she was talking about, but she told me

about all the gossip between the women at SLEC hospital who were there

for their medical appts. All of them finding out about each others

case...She told me none of them mentioned love for the reason of

marrying and immigrating to the United States, but some had sincere

and good intention to make their marriages work once they got here.

But then she told me about the "one" She was very young maybe 22, and

giggly. And her words were clear...

"I dont love my fiance, I am just doing this because my parents want

me to go to the United States" hehehe

We had talked about these types many times in our relationship, I am

sure most of you can guess, that I was making sure that I was not

being duped myself. lol

This topic will be very long:

Now for the purposes of this thread, we are going to ASSUME that it is

clear that the Pilipina is using the Americano to get the green card

or U.S. citizenship status. We all know that this is not the case

with all or even most Pilipina women and that the majority of Pilipina

women are sincere and come here to marry and live for life with the

person that petitioned them.

But we do see a common trend that seems to be increasing among many

Pilipina women who are using the K-1 visa to come here, and really

have no intention of staying married. Over the past 5 yrs I have done

a lot of reading on Fil-Am relationships, and while decades ago you

would think that this was the perfect match made in heaven for a lot

of people, we now see that things may be breaking down between the two

groups. American people are changing, becoming a lot more

conservative. Philippine culture has changed immensely. Economic

conditions have proven to be the one thing that really supported the

bond between an American man and Pilipina woman. The man wanted a

faithful loving wife, and the woman wanted a good man who could

provide her a good family life. It’s nothing wrong with this either.

Men seek a woman they can trust, and women seek a man who has the

resources to take care of her and any children that may come along.

In the 70s and 80s it seemed to have worked well. If you look around

America you can see older couples that have succeeded from this era in

marriage. About 5 yrs ago I was in a mall and I saw an old

couple...both of them had to be in their 60s. The man was American,

and his wife Pilipina. What was amazing is that right there in the

mall this older couple was holding hands. Wow, what a good thing to see!

But lets be honest, the new Philippine culture has changed a lot over

the past few decades. Since the bases closed there in 1992, we see

that the culture has changed both for the better, and some for the

worst. The economic conditions seem to be bad in the Philippines,

many people who are from the Philippines are working abroad or have a

family member(s) that are working abroad.

So while the economic status of the Philippines looks bad on the

inside economy, many people inside the Philippines may not be hurting

as bad as it looks on paper. Most money flows from other countries

into the Philippines to support the people. The trend of people

having to leave the Philippines for sake of making money has birthed

all kinds of options to the younger generation inside the country. The

internet has also opened a new door for some Pilipino people to make

money from other countries, and to secure new relationships that may

help them immigrate to the United States and other developed

countries. It has also birthed a new culture of people who use the

internet to create scams, and steal from innocent people who are

seeking real relationships or help them.

This brings me to one particular scammer, that uncommon Pilipina who

sits in the Philippines and wants to leave that country and is willing

to lower herself to do it any way possible. She lives on the internet

like its a job. She may seek only status in a new country and is

willing to use someone to achieve it. She flirts and talks with many

men online at one time, she is fishing for the big catch, and waits

until the right fish catches the hook. She is not really interested

in marriage at all. She just wants to get out of that country any way

she can. Meanwhile while she is fishing, she can use the other

smaller fish to help her have some income there in the Philippines.

Many changes in Philippine culture like this one, has not been caught

on by many American men. Many American men who don’t know much about

the Philippines are easily fooled by the scams in the country. She

may tell you a family member is sick and needs medical help. You have

no way of knowing for sure. Also many of the images that are put

forth of the Pilipina today is falsely tied to the old Pilipina who

was more traditional and who had strong family values. What baffles

me is how so many American men refuse to see that the Philippines has

changed from its more traditional ways. This change took place a long

long time ago.

Anyway once the Pilipina achieves finding that man to petition her and

she makes it to the United States via K-1 visa, is when things start

to get tricky. So I am going to inform some of these men as to what I

have seen with my own eyes and what i have heard, and what i know to

be true. Some of it may not make you happy.

The Pilipina who has made it to the United States via K-1 visa and is

now married but she only did it for the sake of a green card or

citizenship status and do not want to be married or stay married, what

are her options? Now I am not saying what she is doing is right, we

all know it's not right. In fact this is fraud. We should be realistic

that this is fraud and is rarely caught, and it is not easy to catch.

But what is her next move after she secures the marriage in the U.S.?

This is where it becomes tricky, but very dangerous.

Most of us have seen this openly discussed right here on the

Internet among Pilipinas giving advice to each other. As one

Pilipina’s post states she commonly says:

“I don’t love my husband. I am worried that I may get deported. How

can I stay in the United States?”

The replies to this post have a major contrast between the American

men, who rarely even reply to these posts and the Pilipina women who

are already in the United States who will give sometimes unethical

advice about how to achieve such goal.

The American men often recommend that she go back to her country and

come back the right way if she has not achieved status yet. But the

Pilipina women will give some very interesting advice that clearly

shows the plan about how a woman can come to the United States using a

K-1 visa for the sake of just getting a green card or citizenship Status.

I have read several posts as to what is often called the 3-D plan as

to how to stay in the United States and leave your marriage. I

realized this was the door that attracts some Pilipinas sitting in the

Philippines who are looking to leave the Philippines and use the

internet to look for a victim, to help them achieve it.

What does the 3-D plan consists of?

The 3-D plan is for the one who wants to come to the U.S. but wants to

not be married, but chooses to use marriage for the sake of getting

here. It can also be used for a Pilipina who honestly came to the

United States to marry but the marriage did not work out, but wants to

stay in the United States. One would question why someone would come

to a foreign country for love, and the love does not work out, why

they would want to stay and not go back to their own country.

How can you really tell the difference? You really don't know which

is the scammer and which is sincere. The 3-D plan consists of

Divorce, Domestic Violence, and Delay. So what does she do when she

gets to the United States and is now ready to move away from her

husband? She has 3 options, at her disposal, and some of them can

prove to be lethal to the victim petitioner:

Divorce

Divorce is the more likely option for most of them. But in order to

get that divorce, they need time in the marriage, and they need to

convince their husbands to divorce them too. While they can file for

divorce, they must have some cause for it. This may cause a serious

volatile situation in the home and marriage and can be dangerous in a

marriage. She could be causing dilemmas and conflict in the home and

conflict between the two of them, soon after she arrives. She could

ignore the spouse, or refuse any intimacy between the two of them. I

have seen this act happen in real life. But the result did not turn

out so well for the Pilipina this time.

Domestic Violence

This one is tricky and is not very likely to be an option for most

Pilipina women. This kind of conflict is not one that feels good to

any Pilipina. But this one is extremely dangerous and can cause

someone to get hurt. While we all know something about DV, we all

know that no man (or woman) should ever hit or abuse someone in a

marriage. Most men understand this from childhood. But there are

some men that hit. There are some women that hit too. But when a man

hits, it’s likely to cause more destruction and pain. So in America

we have strong solid laws that mostly protect women from Domestic

Violence. VAWA laws have been set to protect women in order to

decrease violence between men and women. We need these laws because a

man is much stronger than a woman and can cause more damage in a

physical conflict. But Domestic Violence goes a lot farther in that

one can also be mentally, verbally and emotionally abused by a spouse

as well. So things can get tricky here in a marriage and if someone

is accused of DV, their life can be ruined.

But VAWA laws can also open a door for a devious woman, and

occasionally a scheming man to gain leverage in a marriage and to give

cause to a divorce. My honest opinion, this is the worst and the most

dangerous advice that can be given to a Pilipina who is coming here

and wishes to achieve independence and American citizenship. But if

you look around you can see this advice is freely handed out as a way

to “sneak in.” While most cases of DV are true and genuine, there are

a lot of cases where the spouse (especially women) can provoke or lie

about DV. This causes a highly volatile situation in the home and in

the marriage that can cause someone to get hurt. Even children can be

caught in the crossfire or even used as pawns to achieve the false

accusation of abuse. This can hurt the man greatly who gets falsely

accused of this. Just remember that a pilipina who comes here

strictly for the reasons of gaining citizenship or a green card has

this option open to her, if she gets too desperate it is likely she

may try such a scheme in the marriage. While this is the extreme of

her options, please realize that its there at her disposal. Keep in

mind that DV is not just you hitting her; it means just a tiny

incident that you may have not initiated. It can be a physical or

verbal exchange. It can be spanking your stepchild. It can be a

simple gesture that you called her a name. One visit from the police

to your home can ruin your life. BE CAREFUL! I have seen it with my

own eyes.

It is important that all petitioners (male and female) are aware that

this tactic can be used against them and if so, to immediately remove

and separate themselves from the person that may attempt this. Bottom

line is you have to move away. If she is attempting to intentionally

cause conflict, both of you cannot stay in the same home without any

witnesses there. Even if there are witnesses it is not good for you

both to be in close proximity of one another. If they won’t leave,

you must leave. You are vulnerable to be accused of something that can

destroy your life. I speak to the men mostly on this issue.

Delay

The last option open to this Pilipina is to delay and play the role of

married wife until she gains enough status to guarantee her stay in

the United States. This is the more likely option. If she can bear

living with the man, and is willing to play the role long enough, then

she can achieve better status, and make a divorce look like she gave

an honest try to make it work. Delaying can cause issues for the

petitioners as well, because the investment into the marriage has

settled in a lot more after 2 or 3 years. A divorce may put the

petitioner in the position to may have to pay child support for kids

he may have adopted and even alimony. But if the Pilipina just wants

to be free of the marriage, she may not even seek any of this. Guys

be careful!!!

I am not doing this thread to make petitioners scared, but I think its

important that they think a lot more before they decide to bring the

poor, destitute helpless young pilipina to the United States. You

need to know that she is not out in some field working the crops for

14 hours a day, and barely making enough money to feed her or the

family. While the Philippines is a poor country, it is more likely to

be more of a welfare state, rather than a really poor country. There

is a huge difference between some countries in South Africa and the

Philippines. If you want to see a good example of what the

Philippines is, take a tour of our tough crime neighborhoods and

ghettos here in America. That is mostly what you get in PI.

Comments Please!

Wow, very interesting thread! My dad's brother is married to a Filipina lady. I think at first he was thinking she may be using him but she seems to be in love now. I hope nobody on here gets used for the GC!

[Mykuls Merry Ann 4]

Dont upset the pred peds the will call for a ban on ur azz

The Pred peds???

[happywifeymom 4]

Just an opinion.

My soon to be wife and I had some fun talk last night on the phone.

She went to complete her medical appt and she mentioned to me that

"She found one" lol

I was confused at first what she was talking about, but she told me

about all the gossip between the women at SLEC hospital who were there

for their medical appts. All of them finding out about each others

case...She told me none of them mentioned love for the reason of

marrying and immigrating to the United States, but some had sincere

and good intention to make their marriages work once they got here.

But then she told me about the "one" She was very young maybe 22, and

giggly. And her words were clear...

"I dont love my fiance, I am just doing this because my parents want

me to go to the United States" hehehe

We had talked about these types many times in our relationship, I am

sure most of you can guess, that I was making sure that I was not

being duped myself. lol

This topic will be very long:

Now for the purposes of this thread, we are going to ASSUME that it is

clear that the Pilipina is using the Americano to get the green card

or U.S. citizenship status. We all know that this is not the case

with all or even most Pilipina women and that the majority of Pilipina

women are sincere and come here to marry and live for life with the

person that petitioned them.

But we do see a common trend that seems to be increasing among many

Pilipina women who are using the K-1 visa to come here, and really

have no intention of staying married. Over the past 5 yrs I have done

a lot of reading on Fil-Am relationships, and while decades ago you

would think that this was the perfect match made in heaven for a lot

of people, we now see that things may be breaking down between the two

groups. American people are changing, becoming a lot more

conservative. Philippine culture has changed immensely. Economic

conditions have proven to be the one thing that really supported the

bond between an American man and Pilipina woman. The man wanted a

faithful loving wife, and the woman wanted a good man who could

provide her a good family life. It’s nothing wrong with this either.

Men seek a woman they can trust, and women seek a man who has the

resources to take care of her and any children that may come along.

In the 70s and 80s it seemed to have worked well. If you look around

America you can see older couples that have succeeded from this era in

marriage. About 5 yrs ago I was in a mall and I saw an old

couple...both of them had to be in their 60s. The man was American,

and his wife Pilipina. What was amazing is that right there in the

mall this older couple was holding hands. Wow, what a good thing to see!

But lets be honest, the new Philippine culture has changed a lot over

the past few decades. Since the bases closed there in 1992, we see

that the culture has changed both for the better, and some for the

worst. The economic conditions seem to be bad in the Philippines,

many people who are from the Philippines are working abroad or have a

family member(s) that are working abroad.

So while the economic status of the Philippines looks bad on the

inside economy, many people inside the Philippines may not be hurting

as bad as it looks on paper. Most money flows from other countries

into the Philippines to support the people. The trend of people

having to leave the Philippines for sake of making money has birthed

all kinds of options to the younger generation inside the country. The

internet has also opened a new door for some Pilipino people to make

money from other countries, and to secure new relationships that may

help them immigrate to the United States and other developed

countries. It has also birthed a new culture of people who use the

internet to create scams, and steal from innocent people who are

seeking real relationships or help them.

This brings me to one particular scammer, that uncommon Pilipina who

sits in the Philippines and wants to leave that country and is willing

to lower herself to do it any way possible. She lives on the internet

like its a job. She may seek only status in a new country and is

willing to use someone to achieve it. She flirts and talks with many

men online at one time, she is fishing for the big catch, and waits

until the right fish catches the hook. She is not really interested

in marriage at all. She just wants to get out of that country any way

she can. Meanwhile while she is fishing, she can use the other

smaller fish to help her have some income there in the Philippines.

Many changes in Philippine culture like this one, has not been caught

on by many American men. Many American men who don’t know much about

the Philippines are easily fooled by the scams in the country. She

may tell you a family member is sick and needs medical help. You have

no way of knowing for sure. Also many of the images that are put

forth of the Pilipina today is falsely tied to the old Pilipina who

was more traditional and who had strong family values. What baffles

me is how so many American men refuse to see that the Philippines has

changed from its more traditional ways. This change took place a long

long time ago.

Anyway once the Pilipina achieves finding that man to petition her and

she makes it to the United States via K-1 visa, is when things start

to get tricky. So I am going to inform some of these men as to what I

have seen with my own eyes and what i have heard, and what i know to

be true. Some of it may not make you happy.

The Pilipina who has made it to the United States via K-1 visa and is

now married but she only did it for the sake of a green card or

citizenship status and do not want to be married or stay married, what

are her options? Now I am not saying what she is doing is right, we

all know it's not right. In fact this is fraud. We should be realistic

that this is fraud and is rarely caught, and it is not easy to catch.

But what is her next move after she secures the marriage in the U.S.?

This is where it becomes tricky, but very dangerous.

Most of us have seen this openly discussed right here on the

Internet among Pilipinas giving advice to each other. As one

Pilipina’s post states she commonly says:

“I don’t love my husband. I am worried that I may get deported. How

can I stay in the United States?”

The replies to this post have a major contrast between the American

men, who rarely even reply to these posts and the Pilipina women who

are already in the United States who will give sometimes unethical

advice about how to achieve such goal.

The American men often recommend that she go back to her country and

come back the right way if she has not achieved status yet. But the

Pilipina women will give some very interesting advice that clearly

shows the plan about how a woman can come to the United States using a

K-1 visa for the sake of just getting a green card or citizenship Status.

I have read several posts as to what is often called the 3-D plan as

to how to stay in the United States and leave your marriage. I

realized this was the door that attracts some Pilipinas sitting in the

Philippines who are looking to leave the Philippines and use the

internet to look for a victim, to help them achieve it.

What does the 3-D plan consists of?

The 3-D plan is for the one who wants to come to the U.S. but wants to

not be married, but chooses to use marriage for the sake of getting

here. It can also be used for a Pilipina who honestly came to the

United States to marry but the marriage did not work out, but wants to

stay in the United States. One would question why someone would come

to a foreign country for love, and the love does not work out, why

they would want to stay and not go back to their own country.

How can you really tell the difference? You really don't know which

is the scammer and which is sincere. The 3-D plan consists of

Divorce, Domestic Violence, and Delay. So what does she do when she

gets to the United States and is now ready to move away from her

husband? She has 3 options, at her disposal, and some of them can

prove to be lethal to the victim petitioner:

Divorce

Divorce is the more likely option for most of them. But in order to

get that divorce, they need time in the marriage, and they need to

convince their husbands to divorce them too. While they can file for

divorce, they must have some cause for it. This may cause a serious

volatile situation in the home and marriage and can be dangerous in a

marriage. She could be causing dilemmas and conflict in the home and

conflict between the two of them, soon after she arrives. She could

ignore the spouse, or refuse any intimacy between the two of them. I

have seen this act happen in real life. But the result did not turn

out so well for the Pilipina this time.

Domestic Violence

This one is tricky and is not very likely to be an option for most

Pilipina women. This kind of conflict is not one that feels good to

any Pilipina. But this one is extremely dangerous and can cause

someone to get hurt. While we all know something about DV, we all

know that no man (or woman) should ever hit or abuse someone in a

marriage. Most men understand this from childhood. But there are

some men that hit. There are some women that hit too. But when a man

hits, it’s likely to cause more destruction and pain. So in America

we have strong solid laws that mostly protect women from Domestic

Violence. VAWA laws have been set to protect women in order to

decrease violence between men and women. We need these laws because a

man is much stronger than a woman and can cause more damage in a

physical conflict. But Domestic Violence goes a lot farther in that

one can also be mentally, verbally and emotionally abused by a spouse

as well. So things can get tricky here in a marriage and if someone

is accused of DV, their life can be ruined.

But VAWA laws can also open a door for a devious woman, and

occasionally a scheming man to gain leverage in a marriage and to give

cause to a divorce. My honest opinion, this is the worst and the most

dangerous advice that can be given to a Pilipina who is coming here

and wishes to achieve independence and American citizenship. But if

you look around you can see this advice is freely handed out as a way

to “sneak in.” While most cases of DV are true and genuine, there are

a lot of cases where the spouse (especially women) can provoke or lie

about DV. This causes a highly volatile situation in the home and in

the marriage that can cause someone to get hurt. Even children can be

caught in the crossfire or even used as pawns to achieve the false

accusation of abuse. This can hurt the man greatly who gets falsely

accused of this. Just remember that a pilipina who comes here

strictly for the reasons of gaining citizenship or a green card has

this option open to her, if she gets too desperate it is likely she

may try such a scheme in the marriage. While this is the extreme of

her options, please realize that its there at her disposal. Keep in

mind that DV is not just you hitting her; it means just a tiny

incident that you may have not initiated. It can be a physical or

verbal exchange. It can be spanking your stepchild. It can be a

simple gesture that you called her a name. One visit from the police

to your home can ruin your life. BE CAREFUL! I have seen it with my

own eyes.

It is important that all petitioners (male and female) are aware that

this tactic can be used against them and if so, to immediately remove

and separate themselves from the person that may attempt this. Bottom

line is you have to move away. If she is attempting to intentionally

cause conflict, both of you cannot stay in the same home without any

witnesses there. Even if there are witnesses it is not good for you

both to be in close proximity of one another. If they won’t leave,

you must leave. You are vulnerable to be accused of something that can

destroy your life. I speak to the men mostly on this issue.

Delay

The last option open to this Pilipina is to delay and play the role of

married wife until she gains enough status to guarantee her stay in

the United States. This is the more likely option. If she can bear

living with the man, and is willing to play the role long enough, then

she can achieve better status, and make a divorce look like she gave

an honest try to make it work. Delaying can cause issues for the

petitioners as well, because the investment into the marriage has

settled in a lot more after 2 or 3 years. A divorce may put the

petitioner in the position to may have to pay child support for kids

he may have adopted and even alimony. But if the Pilipina just wants

to be free of the marriage, she may not even seek any of this. Guys

be careful!!!

I am not doing this thread to make petitioners scared, but I think its

important that they think a lot more before they decide to bring the

poor, destitute helpless young pilipina to the United States. You

need to know that she is not out in some field working the crops for

14 hours a day, and barely making enough money to feed her or the

family. While the Philippines is a poor country, it is more likely to

be more of a welfare state, rather than a really poor country. There

is a huge difference between some countries in South Africa and the

Philippines. If you want to see a good example of what the

Philippines is, take a tour of our tough crime neighborhoods and

ghettos here in America. That is mostly what you get in PI.

Comments Please!

well, not just filipinas but also "NIGERS"..say mo?

GALING MO KABAYAN!!

[mawilson 2,133]

where is brother MA at? this is his type of thread...to get suspended

I would make a joke, but Filipinas have already made themselves into one.

[bhajishah 4]

predators and philers (like the guy who claimed to have stolen Jon Benet) Shhhh they wtching and they going to start whining like sissy girls.

[Uncle Wally 2]

My buddy's cousin in California married some girl he met on the Internet from *a country that shall remain anonymous*.

I guess he got some kind of rash or whatever, and finally got her to spill the beans: While he was at work everyday, she was down at the local pool hall whoring her self out for extra cash.

Don't know if she just married him for a Green Card, but it's a pretty funny story. Poor #######...

[Mykuls Merry Ann 4]

I would like to do a rebuttal of my own opinion thread,

I can see that the responses go from, its good advice to some being offended. BUt this was not meant to offend anyone.

One thing the orignal post does not mention is that even though some of these women may be seeking a greencard and/or citizenship status they themselves can be or become victims in this process as well.

I think the hints lay in the original post if you look close enough and read. The point of the post actually is not only to alert American but to save lives. Not only the American life but the life of someone who may be desparate enough to do such a thing. That its risky business.

What about the young girl at the SLEC hospital who says her parents want her to go to the UNited States so that she can help the family at home? Is she not being used and put in a very risky situation? She can be a victim here as well. what if she ties herself to a very unstable man, who may be controlling, or is prone to demostic disputes?

My point here is that we should not be looking to put anyone down here, but to be sure to limit some of these situations where the relationship can become highly charges and volatile. How often do we see a very older man and very young girl in some of the relationships between Fil and Am?

I could not see myself, poor or not, sending my 22 yr old daughter to a foreign country to be with a much older man, who I dont know anything about. This issue has been going on a while. The young filipina who leaves her province to work in a bar.

We need to see that not only should we be alerting men, but actively we need to educate the young women in the philippines who think this is an easy and good way to immigrate the United States. I have seen some women come here with 3 kids, and marry an american man, and the relationship is not good. Remember there are kids in the home here. They are also in a foreign country. We have to see that even if some of my filipina sisters may be offended by my post, they also must realize that what is being said here protects vulnerable filipina women.

I am wondering why I did not get the reply that this desparate young girl online all day, may also be a victim of her own family, society, and culture? Can we see that the person who is providing her the advice is giving her poison, and may put her in danger?

You can make me the bad guy on this issue for bringing up such a fragile issue, that many choose not to speak openly about. But my question is why not talk about this? This is a complex issue, that needs to be discussed, Its not about pointing fingers at any one group, its about saving lives ultimately.

Who is the victim here? Arent they all?

[Uncle Wally 2]

You know, I don't know how to say this without sounding like an a$$hole, but seeing as how I'm a bit of an a$$hole, I'll just say it:

If some guy marries a girl from a 3rd world country who's 26 years younger than him whom he met and 'fell in love' with on the fvcking Internet,...

come on now, seriously- how the hell does he honestly expect it to turn out?!?

[Chica Yeyé 41]

This is starting to remind me of Ken's threads

[Mykuls Merry Ann 4]

This is starting to remind me of Ken's threads

May I ask who is Ken? And what was it about his threads that remind you of my own?

[Chica Yeyé 41]

This is starting to remind me of Ken's threads

May I ask who is Ken? And what was it about his threads that remind you of my own?

Ken is a VJ member. Long-winded blah blah threads.

[Mykuls Merry Ann 4]

This is starting to remind me of Ken's threads

May I ask who is Ken? And what was it about his threads that remind you of my own?

Ken is a VJ member. Long-winded blah blah threads.

Yes I could shorten my style a bit. But ya know what, if you don't narrow down to the subject, people will simply not understand what is said, and not see the full picture. They will always claim overgeneralizing. That you cant put all one group in one box...And then you never get to discuss the actual issue itself. So you try to nail down the common sense points, so that people can be free to discuss only the issue at hand. This will take more words to do this.

Sorry to bore you!

[Ban Hammer 13,445]

please edit your posts so they are not a mile long and giving the rest of us blisters on our mouse wheel finger!

Edited January 17, 2009 by charles!

[Chica Yeyé 41]

This is starting to remind me of Ken's threads

May I ask who is Ken? And what was it about his threads that remind you of my own?

Ken is a VJ member. Long-winded blah blah threads.

Yes I could shorten my style a bit. But ya know what, if you don't narrow down to the subject, people will simply not understand what is said, and not see the full picture. They will always claim overgeneralizing. That you cant put all one group in one box...And then you never get to discuss the actual issue itself. So you try to nail down the common sense points, so that people can be free to discuss only the issue at hand. This will take more words to do this.

Sorry to bore you!

I don't think "people" really give a hoot about what you have to say. But please carry on. It is quite amusing.

[john & jean 37]

please edit your posts so they are not a mile long and giving the rest of us blisters on our mouse wheel finger!