Poverty

[JeremyR 8]

I've just received the RFE letter that I've been waiting for all week. It claims that the I-864 we submitted didn't clear 125% of the poverty line. But it did!!!! Not by very much - in fact uncomfortably close but none the less, it is above 125% of the poverty line! What on earth do we do now? A joint sponsor will be very difficult to come by.

[JeremyR 8]

Just to point out, we did take into account household size. The 125% line for our household is $26500. My wife makes slightly more than that.

[aravis227 1]

I would call USCIS and follow the options for an RFE. Hopefully you can get someone helpful on the phone and they can let you know what options you have.

[DaveHanna 0]

Hi JeremyR

Sorry about your situation. What was the gross income listed on the most resent tax return?. Line 37 on the 1040 form.

[JeremyR 8]

Hi JeremyR

Sorry about your situation. What was the gross income listed on the most resent tax return?. Line 37 on the 1040 form.

Thanks . That's where things might be complicated. She was promoted into a position that increased her salary above the poverty line after the 2007 return was submitted. However, we submitted a certified letter from her employer dated just a few days before we sent the I-864 stating that her annual salary is just slightly over $26,500. She's a government employee so it shouldn't be that they think her employer is cooking the books to shove her above the line (my first thought). We have pay stubs and so on.

I have another (possibly complex) question that might make all of this irrelevant though. My two stepkids (the other two members of our household of 4) receive Social Security survivor's benefits from their father who died last year (poor kids) and they will continue to receive them until they're 18 (6 and 8 years from now). Should we count this as income? The under the instructions for "If you cannot meet the income requirements" (leaving apart that we do ) it says:

Income from any relatives or dependents living in your household or dependents listed on your most recent Federal tax return who signed a Form I-864A;

If this counts as income then we have absolutely no problem clearing the poverty line. We weren't sure first time around and left them off because we thought we would be OK without declaring them by virtue of the fact that we're above 125% of the line. If it's not considered income from USCIS's point of view, I don't know what we'll do.

[aravis227 1]

Income from any relatives or dependents living in your household or dependents listed on your most recent Federal tax return who signed a Form I-864A;

If this counts as income then we have absolutely no problem clearing the poverty line. We weren't sure first time around and left them off because we thought we would be OK without declaring them by virtue of the fact that we're above 125% of the line. If it's not considered income from USCIS's point of view, I don't know what we'll do.

I think this would count the same way that child support from an ex would count. As long as you can prove you receive it (shouldn't be hard at all since it's social security) you should be able to include it. Hopefully someone more experienced in these things will verify and let you know how to report it. Good luck!

[Cuchita 1]

OMG I am freaking out now cause I exceed it for a minimum too. Well I think its 2000 more, will that be minimum?

[JeremyR 8]

OMG I am freaking out now cause I exceed it for a minimum too. Well I think its 2000 more, will that be minimum?

Don't sweat it. We're talking a hell of a lot closer than 2K here. Think less than 50 bucks

However, if it turns out that the 125% line isn't an absolute line at all and it's actually 'fuzzy' then I would imagine there are implications for some others too... Right now I'm waiting for my congressional rep to get back to me to see what she thinks of this.

[JeremyR 8]

Well the misinformation line were as useful as a chocolate teapot. She just said that if I truly believe that my wife's income is sufficient, send in the evidence (again!!) and "include a covering sheet detailing your calculations".

<sigh> <sigh>

I have a splitting headache now. They really do know how to wreck your day, don't they

[Mint518 0]

I have another (possibly complex) question that might make all of this irrelevant though. My two stepkids (the other two members of our household of 4) receive Social Security survivor's benefits from their father who died last year (poor kids) and they will continue to receive them until they're 18 (6 and 8 years from now). Should we count this as income? The under the instructions for "If you cannot meet the income requirements" (leaving apart that we do ) it says:

Income from any relatives or dependents living in your household or dependents listed on your most recent Federal tax return who signed a Form I-864A;

If this counts as income then we have absolutely no problem clearing the poverty line. We weren't sure first time around and left them off because we thought we would be OK without declaring them by virtue of the fact that we're above 125% of the line. If it's not considered income from USCIS's point of view, I don't know what we'll do.

Although I agree that, as a general matter, Social Security survivor's benefits would be used as household income, I do not think you can count on them since your stepchildren are minors and cannot sign I-864A (see part 1, Q8c of I-864A, requiring the signor of I-864A to be at least 18 years old in case he/she is a son or daughter of intending immigrant).

Well the misinformation line were as useful as a chocolate teapot. She just said that if I truly believe that my wife's income is sufficient, send in the evidence (again!!) and "include a covering sheet detailing your calculations".

If I understand correctly, your wife's income in 2007 was a litte below poverty line, but was above the poverty line in 2008 due to promotion. In that case, if I am in your shose, I will submit the updated I-864 using 2008 tax return information (Since it is already mid-January, she will receive W-2 in 2 weeks or so, and can file 2008 return.)

But if you rather want to send back I-864 ASAP, resending the last submitted I-864 might be fine as long as you will attach the employer's letter and latest pay stubs showing her income for the previous six months (including the one showing cumulative income for 2008) along with a cover sheet explaining the situation as you were told by a person from information line.

[JeremyR 8]

Although I agree that, as a general matter, Social Security survivor's benefits would be used as household income, I do not think you can count on them since your stepchildren are minors and cannot sign I-864A (see part 1, Q8c of I-864A, requiring the signor of I-864A to be at least 18 years old in case he/she is a son or daughter of intending immigrant).

Yes, this is what we thought back in October and what I still think now, having spent a mind numbing couple of hours reading CFR 8 §213a this evening :wacko: For obvious reasons, we've always wanted to keep any income the kids have as far away from the I-864 as possible and that's what we'll continue to do.

If I understand correctly, your wife's income in 2007 was a litte below poverty line, but was above the poverty line in 2008 due to promotion. In that case, if I am in your shose, I will submit the updated I-864 using 2008 tax return information (Since it is already mid-January, she will receive W-2 in 2 weeks or so, and can file 2008 return.)

But if you rather want to send back I-864 ASAP, resending the last submitted I-864 might be fine as long as you will attach the employer's letter and latest pay stubs showing her income for the previous six months (including the one showing cumulative income for 2008) along with a cover sheet explaining the situation as you were told by a person from information line.

Yes, this year's W-2 will be submitted. The timing of the RFE is 'good' in that respect. The payslips and employment letter were sent with the original affidavit (precisely because the 2007 tax return was deficient). I get the impression that either the adjudicator was trying to push the rules a bit and demand a co-sponsor because we are so very close to the line (which they won't be getting away with ) or they just didn't see the supplementary evidence or it became separated from the file.

There's a policy document (PDF) on the USCIS website that states that "The adjudicator should request additional evidence only if the tax return reflects income below the Form I-864P, Poverty Guidelines and the record does not already contain additional evidence that would establish the sponsor meets the current income requirements." So clearly either they're bending the rules or just didn't see the slips and letter.

Having calmed down a little bit, I know we're in the right and can prove it so there really shouldn't be a problem. The way the I-864P document puts it is crystal clear: $26,500.00 is not ok, $26,500.01 absolutely is. Reading the RFE, we're not required to submit a new I-864, just supplementary evidence. So we'll send it again. It also doesn't matter what happens to the poverty line when 2009's guidelines come out in March - my understanding of 8 CFR §213a is that the poverty guidelines that are used are for the time when the original I-864 was submitted, regardless of when they subsequently process it.

If they still won't take it, we'll move on to assets but since the rules say that the value of any assets has to be 5x the deficit, I'd like to see them try and work out how much they have to be worth when the 'deficit' is a positive number

[jhunjhun 7]

Although I agree that, as a general matter, Social Security survivor's benefits would be used as household income, I do not think you can count on them since your stepchildren are minors and cannot sign I-864A (see part 1, Q8c of I-864A, requiring the signor of I-864A to be at least 18 years old in case he/she is a son or daughter of intending immigrant).

Yes, this is what we thought back in October and what I still think now, having spent a mind numbing couple of hours reading CFR 8 §213a this evening :wacko: For obvious reasons, we've always wanted to keep any income the kids have as far away from the I-864 as possible and that's what we'll continue to do.

If I understand correctly, your wife's income in 2007 was a litte below poverty line, but was above the poverty line in 2008 due to promotion. In that case, if I am in your shose, I will submit the updated I-864 using 2008 tax return information (Since it is already mid-January, she will receive W-2 in 2 weeks or so, and can file 2008 return.)

But if you rather want to send back I-864 ASAP, resending the last submitted I-864 might be fine as long as you will attach the employer's letter and latest pay stubs showing her income for the previous six months (including the one showing cumulative income for 2008) along with a cover sheet explaining the situation as you were told by a person from information line.

Yes, this year's W-2 will be submitted. The timing of the RFE is 'good' in that respect. The payslips and employment letter were sent with the original affidavit (precisely because the 2007 tax return was deficient). I get the impression that either the adjudicator was trying to push the rules a bit and demand a co-sponsor because we are so very close to the line (which they won't be getting away with ) or they just didn't see the supplementary evidence or it became separated from the file.

There's a policy document (PDF) on the USCIS website that states that "The adjudicator should request additional evidence only if the tax return reflects income below the Form I-864P, Poverty Guidelines and the record does not already contain additional evidence that would establish the sponsor meets the current income requirements." So clearly either they're bending the rules or just didn't see the slips and letter.

Having calmed down a little bit, I know we're in the right and can prove it so there really shouldn't be a problem. The way the I-864P document puts it is crystal clear: $26,500.00 is not ok, $26,500.01 absolutely is. Reading the RFE, we're not required to submit a new I-864, just supplementary evidence. So we'll send it again. It also doesn't matter what happens to the poverty line when 2009's guidelines come out in March - my understanding of 8 CFR §213a is that the poverty guidelines that are used are for the time when the original I-864 was submitted, regardless of when they subsequently process it.

If they still won't take it, we'll move on to assets but since the rules say that the value of any assets has to be 5x the deficit, I'd like to see them try and work out how much they have to be worth when the 'deficit' is a positive number

Our interview date is coming soon...I'm afraid that USCIS will request for my wife income for 2008....my wife's income for this year is just very little above the poverty line.......

[JeffnBhing 0]

Assets are 3x not 5x as the old forms state.

If they still won't take it, we'll move on to assets but since the rules say that the value of any assets has to be 5x the deficit, I'd like to see them try and work out how much they have to be worth when the 'deficit' is a positive number

[JeremyR 8]

Assets are 3x not 5x as the old forms state.

My point remains though, if we have to show assets that are worth a minimum of three times the deficit, then if the deficit is actually a surplus of 36 bucks, we'd need to show we own assets worth -$108 Does that mean USCIS would have to pay us

Anyway, the case has now been transferred to CSC, after receiving the response to the RFE, which we're hoping is a good sign that they've accepted the proof of income this time