Why does the Left hate Israel?

[Ban Hammer 13,345]

rockets= wrong Israel's reaction to those rockets= wrong

wrong + wrong not equal right.

easy to say when one is armchair quarterbacking instead of having those rockets shot at you.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

You can't have a solution without breaking the cycle of violence. Easier said than done of course.

Hamas will never accept any solution short of a full Israeli withdrawal to the "Green Line"

(pre-June 1967 border.) And let's face it - that's just not gonna happen. A bit too late for

that now - there are hundreds of thousands of Israelis living behind the Green Line -

what do you do with them? I suppose if you paid them a million dollars each to move,

a couple of hundred billion dollars would fix the problem.

As I said they do have a valid position on that issue, and one that doesn't tend to be much analysed in our media.

Gaza comprises approximately a million and a half people crammed into a 140 square mile area (in essence not terribly different from inner city ghettos in the US). Throw in terrible transport infrastructure, chronic malnutrition amongs the population and a broken economy (the result, in part, of previous Israeli incursions) and it becomes clear that this little more than a long-term refugee camp, complete with all the associated humanitarian problems.

We can to and fro over the relative morality about Hamas and the IDf, but its pretty clear who is suffering the most here. The rocket attacks are certainly reprehensible, but I think the threat that they pose to the Israelis is rather inflated given the relative handful of people killed and injured - certainly when it comes to justifying the response - major military action which kills many hundreds of palestinians and which further cripples the civilian infrastructure.

[Niels Bohr 72]

This part of the World have produced terror in many parts of the world. When will these zealots understand that people think differently, and just plainly accept that instead of war.

Hamas should accept the Israelis are Israelis. So what if they oppose them. Don't have to put rockets towards Israel.

Edited January 6, 2009 by Niels Bohr

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I don't think Hamas' is fixated on global islamism, the way Al Qaeda purportedly is.

There is a mythology in those circles that the Palestinians are embroiled in a new crusade against Jewish invaders, but the reality is that this is very much a day-to-day conflict - ideology has something to do with it, but a lot of it I think is about ####### for tat revenge.

[mawilson 2,133]

You can't have a solution without breaking the cycle of violence. Easier said than done of course.

Hamas will never accept any solution short of a full Israeli withdrawal to the "Green Line"

(pre-June 1967 border.) And let's face it - that's just not gonna happen. A bit too late for

that now - there are hundreds of thousands of Israelis living behind the Green Line -

what do you do with them? I suppose if you paid them a million dollars each to move,

a couple of hundred billion dollars would fix the problem.

As I said they do have a valid position on that issue, and one that doesn't tend to be much analysed in our media.

Gaza comprises approximately a million and a half people crammed into a 140 square mile area (in essence not terribly different from inner city ghettos in the US). Throw in terrible transport infrastructure, chronic malnutrition amongs the population and a broken economy (the result, in part, of previous Israeli incursions) and it becomes clear that this little more than a long-term refugee camp, complete with all the associated humanitarian problems.

We can to and fro over the relative morality about Hamas and the IDf, but its pretty clear who is suffering the most here. The rocket attacks are certainly reprehensible, but I think the threat that they pose to the Israelis is rather inflated given the relative handful of people killed and injured - certainly when it comes to justifying the response - major military action which kills many hundreds of palestinians and which further cripples the civilian infrastructure.

Yes, they do have a position and that is a "10-year truce" (wow how generous of them!) in return

for Israel's complete withdrawal to the 1967 borders.

Israel doesn't accept their position, Hamas doesn't accept Israel's position and the only alternative

is war.

War is not pretty or fair. Combatants die and so do innocent civilians caught in the line of fire.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Its not really "War" though is it. Its a bunch of irregular guerila fighters of varying degrees of experience Vs. a well armed, experienced regular military.

As I said yesterday - much of the condemnation of Israel has to do with what is perceived to be a massively disproportionate response to the original problem; a tactic that's been tried several times before to little effect.

Screw the factions - surely the only sympathy here should be with those who are caught in the middle.

[HAL 9000 96]

I don't think Hamas' is fixated on global islamism, the way Al Qaeda purportedly is.

There is a mythology in those circles that the Palestinians are embroiled in a new crusade against Jewish invaders, but the reality is that this is very much a day-to-day conflict - ideology has something to do with it, but a lot of it I think is about ####### for tat revenge.

Indeed. The conflict is over land.

Granted, Hamas seriously needs to be wiped off the map, since it is land they are fighting over. As do zealot Israeli Zionists that think they are entitled to the same place due to scripture.

Modern Israelis- those that hate Israel according to satire- are sick of the terror as much as they are sick of their own government perpetuating more cycles of terror in the future. That is, those that understand the meaning of the word peace.

[mawilson 2,133]

Its not really "War" though is it. Its a bunch of irregular guerila fighters of varying degrees of experience Vs. a well armed, experienced regular military.

Sure it is. Hamas' military wing is a proper army, not a bunch of "irregular guerilla fighters".

They certainly want to be treated as such:

Abu Abdullah, a leader of Hamas' military wing said his group is preparing for war against Israel.

"In the last 15 months, even though the fighters of Hamas kept the cease-fire, we did not stop

making important advancements and professional training on the military level. In the future,

after Hamas is obliged to stop the cease-fire, the world shall see our new military capabilities,"

said Abu Abdullah, who is considered one of the most important operational members of Hamas'

Izzedine al-Qassam Martyrs Brigades, Hamas' declared "resistance" department.

Al Aqsa's Abu Ahmed said his group is receiving help from Hezbollah to import long-range rockets

and train in guerrilla warfare tactics.

"We have warm relations with Hezbollah, which helps with some of the training programs," Abu Ahmed

said. "We don't have anything to be ashamed of – that we are dealing with Hezbollah and that we

are receiving training and information from them."

He said Hezbollah maintains cells in the Sinai.

"The Sinai is an excellent ground for training, the exchange of information and weapons and for

meetings on how to turn every piece of land into usable territory for a confrontation with Israel,"

Abu Ahmed said.

[joelunchbox 0]

rockets= wrong Israel's reaction to those rockets= wrong

wrong + wrong not equal right.

easy to say when one is armchair quarterbacking instead of having those rockets shot at you.

My opoinion is that ALL americans are armchair quarterbacks.

What are the odds of me going to Israel much less having a say when I get there?

Just because I don't live there doesn't make a wrong a right.

When I first visited Tashkent, I came away with a fairly glowing picture about the government.

Hey! I was there! I lived it.

Low and behold, a couple of months later I read where that government is considered one of the ten worst in the world. I asked my fiance about it and, well, there went my glowing picture.

We do need to get off our arses, get educated and think about the people there--both sides.

There have been so many things done--military and politcal-that I am not sure what accord is in effect and if anyone is left to agree to it.

My understanding--and I will have to go back and do some reading--is that Israel has failed to honor the last agreement. I know that hurts us americans but that is where the peace process stands.

Oh, how many factions are within Israel? How many factions are within the palestinians??

Who are the good guys and who are the bad guys--there are both on both sides.

[DeadPoolX 9]

Its not really "War" though is it. Its a bunch of irregular guerila fighters of varying degrees of experience Vs. a well armed, experienced regular military.

As I said yesterday - much of the condemnation of Israel has to do with what is perceived to be a massively disproportionate response to the original problem; a tactic that's been tried several times before to little effect.

Screw the factions - surely the only sympathy here should be with those who are caught in the middle.

So... I guess the Revolutionary War (i.e. The American War of Independence) wasn't "really a war?" Funny. Seems like it to me.

You had your rag-tag colonists using guerrilla warfare tactics against the British, who at the time had most powerful army in the world.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Its not really "War" though is it. Its a bunch of irregular guerila fighters of varying degrees of experience Vs. a well armed, experienced regular military.

As I said yesterday - much of the condemnation of Israel has to do with what is perceived to be a massively disproportionate response to the original problem; a tactic that's been tried several times before to little effect.

Screw the factions - surely the only sympathy here should be with those who are caught in the middle.

So... I guess the Revolutionary War (i.e. The American War of Independence) wasn't "really a war?" Funny. Seems like it to me.

You had your rag-tag colonists using guerrilla warfare tactics against the British, who at the time had most powerful army in the world.

I think you can tell the difference.

[DeadPoolX 9]

Its not really "War" though is it. Its a bunch of irregular guerila fighters of varying degrees of experience Vs. a well armed, experienced regular military.

As I said yesterday - much of the condemnation of Israel has to do with what is perceived to be a massively disproportionate response to the original problem; a tactic that's been tried several times before to little effect.

Screw the factions - surely the only sympathy here should be with those who are caught in the middle.

So... I guess the Revolutionary War (i.e. The American War of Independence) wasn't "really a war?" Funny. Seems like it to me.

You had your rag-tag colonists using guerrilla warfare tactics against the British, who at the time had most powerful army in the world.

I think you can tell the difference.

What difference? Because the colonists won so we see history through a decidedly American viewpoint? Big deal. The situation is virtually the same.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Its not really "War" though is it. Its a bunch of irregular guerila fighters of varying degrees of experience Vs. a well armed, experienced regular military.

As I said yesterday - much of the condemnation of Israel has to do with what is perceived to be a massively disproportionate response to the original problem; a tactic that's been tried several times before to little effect.

Screw the factions - surely the only sympathy here should be with those who are caught in the middle.

So... I guess the Revolutionary War (i.e. The American War of Independence) wasn't "really a war?" Funny. Seems like it to me.

You had your rag-tag colonists using guerrilla warfare tactics against the British, who at the time had most powerful army in the world.

I think you can tell the difference.

What difference? Because the colonists won so we see history through a decidedly American viewpoint? Big deal. The situation is virtually the same.

Except the colonists had geography on their side.

[DeadPoolX 9]

Its not really "War" though is it. Its a bunch of irregular guerila fighters of varying degrees of experience Vs. a well armed, experienced regular military.

As I said yesterday - much of the condemnation of Israel has to do with what is perceived to be a massively disproportionate response to the original problem; a tactic that's been tried several times before to little effect.

Screw the factions - surely the only sympathy here should be with those who are caught in the middle.

So... I guess the Revolutionary War (i.e. The American War of Independence) wasn't "really a war?" Funny. Seems like it to me.

You had your rag-tag colonists using guerrilla warfare tactics against the British, who at the time had most powerful army in the world.

I think you can tell the difference.

What difference? Because the colonists won so we see history through a decidedly American viewpoint? Big deal. The situation is virtually the same.

Except the colonists had geography on their side.

The Confederate military during the Civil War had "geography on their side." That didn't do them a whole lot of good, now did it?

The Palestinians have the ability to blend in with the populace. Israel uses military uniforms (just as we do) while a Palestinian assailant could come from anyone standing around. I'd say that's better than having geography on your side.

[HAL 9000 96]

Its not really "War" though is it. Its a bunch of irregular guerila fighters of varying degrees of experience Vs. a well armed, experienced regular military.

As I said yesterday - much of the condemnation of Israel has to do with what is perceived to be a massively disproportionate response to the original problem; a tactic that's been tried several times before to little effect.

Screw the factions - surely the only sympathy here should be with those who are caught in the middle.

So... I guess the Revolutionary War (i.e. The American War of Independence) wasn't "really a war?" Funny. Seems like it to me.

You had your rag-tag colonists using guerrilla warfare tactics against the British, who at the time had most powerful army in the world.

I think you can tell the difference.

What difference? Because the colonists won so we see history through a decidedly American viewpoint? Big deal. The situation is virtually the same.

So the Continental Army didn't really exist. The War of Independence was really won by Benjamin Martin and his Colonial Militia.