Pro-Hamas Demonstration - Fort Lauderdale FL

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Only to like-minded people surely.

[HAL 9000 96]

Relativising the issue is pointless. Pointing out that there is an almost unlimited right to free speech in this country that these people are protected by is really the issue. You can't very well go around taking offence at one group of racists over another when it comes to free speech.

Racist Muslim extremists are no more offensive than white supremacists, though reading this thread you might no think so.

Unless they start blowing stuff up or otherwise killing people they don't like, they have a constitutionally protected right to express opinions, even if their ideas are abhorrent or evil.

...but to some here - the guilt by association works perfectly. Palestinians voted for the Hamas therefore they support terrorism. Every Palestinian man, woman and child bares the bloodstains of all Jews killed ever, past and present by proxy. And if they really don't think that way, they would simply get rid of the Hamas themselves, like the Afghans got rid of the Taliban, or how the Iraqi people got rid of Saddam.

There's plenty of demonising going on. Its rather silly to take sides, though honestly what the protesters said on that video did isn't much worse than some of the comments seen on these forums - certainly in regard to cavalier statements endorsing genocide as a way of solving problems.

The point should surely be that ignorance is universal, but that it isn't a crime to be ignorant.

There is a difference, however. The comments made on this board are not widely publicized in the news. What's discussed here stays (for the most part) between the people involved in the discussion. We're not attempting to reach a national or international audience. The same cannot be said for those who engage in inflammatory protests, screaming for people to die and is covered by the media.

It all evens out at the end of the day in philosophy. The media covers hateful crazies protesting massive bombing campaigns that kill people pretty much indiscriminately. You can fill in your 'side' if you wish, but it works both ways in concept- although in body count there is a large difference.

[mawilson 2,133]

...but to some here - the guilt by association works perfectly. Palestinians voted for the Hamas therefore they support terrorism. Every Palestinian man, woman and child bares the bloodstains of all Jews killed ever, past and present by proxy. And if they really don't think that way, they would simply get rid of the Hamas themselves, like the Afghans got rid of the Taliban, or how the Iraqi people got rid of Saddam.

Let me spell it out for you:

1) Hamas were *always* about violence, conflict and outright war with Israel.

2) The majority of Palestinians voted for Hamas.

They wanted war, they got it.

[HAL 9000 96]

Yes, and life is so simple too.

[mawilson 2,133]

Yes, and life is so simple too.

Life *is* simple, my friend.

You make decisions and live with the consequences - good or bad.

[HAL 9000 96]

Yes, and life is so simple too.

Life *is* simple, my friend.

You make decisions and live with the consequences - good or bad.

Certainly cousin.

Decisions and consequences go back before Hamas even existed too. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter while both perspectives can be really douchy as in being douchebags.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The Palestinians weren't ready for democracy. Everyone warned bush about what would happen if they had free elections there, and the outcome didn't disappoint. Frankly bush was a fcuking idiot for insisting on it - he's done more damage to middle east peace than anyone in recent memory.

I wonder if the Israelis preferred dealing with hamas or Arafat.

At least you could talk to Arafat. Unfortunately to nationalists an assault on a political leader is an assault on the very soul of a nation, and it exacerbates extremism.

The Palestinians have to own that of course, but pretty much everything Israel has done has been counter productive.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

...but to some here - the guilt by association works perfectly. Palestinians voted for the Hamas therefore they support terrorism. Every Palestinian man, woman and child bares the bloodstains of all Jews killed ever, past and present by proxy. And if they really don't think that way, they would simply get rid of the Hamas themselves, like the Afghans got rid of the Taliban, or how the Iraqi people got rid of Saddam.

Let me spell it out for you:

1) Hamas were *always* about violence, conflict and outright war with Israel.

2) The majority of Palestinians voted for Hamas.

They wanted war, they got it.

Following your logic, then Israel did too - they propped up the Hamas in hopes of marginalizing the PLO.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

...but to some here - the guilt by association works perfectly. Palestinians voted for the Hamas therefore they support terrorism. Every Palestinian man, woman and child bares the bloodstains of all Jews killed ever, past and present by proxy. And if they really don't think that way, they would simply get rid of the Hamas themselves, like the Afghans got rid of the Taliban, or how the Iraqi people got rid of Saddam.

Let me spell it out for you:

1) Hamas were *always* about violence, conflict and outright war with Israel.

2) The majority of Palestinians voted for Hamas.

They wanted war, they got it.

Unfortunately for Hamas, their strategy of being a nuisance-level threat with their cute 1950's era weaponry combined with a media strategy intended to appeal to the bleeding heart idiots of the American Left, isn't working. The Israeli people and leadership possess a fortitude the Americans lost a long time ago. They're going to engage Hamas where Hamas is weak - militarily. If Hamas wants to win this thing for their people, they're gonna have to step up and engage Israel militarily. That is traditionally how nations are formed, how boundaries are forged. Not on CNN or al-fvcking-Jazeera or the idiotic BBC.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

...

While Israel already has destroyed much of Hamas's infrastructure, "I don't see how this changes the fundamental balance of power" in the Palestinian areas, said Aaron David Miller, who advised six secretaries of state on Arab-Israeli negotiations.

"Hamas is already relevant in a way that undermines Abbas's fecklessness," said Miller, who's now a fellow at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in Washington.

Said an Arab diplomat: "The only way to weaken Hamas is politically," rather than via military force.

A senior Israeli diplomat acknowledged that Hamas had deliberately goaded Israel into a military strike to boost the group's credentials as a front-line force against Israel. With Israeli citizens under attack, Israel had to act in order to not look weak, he said, particularly in the face of a threat from Lebanon-based Hezbollah on its northern border and an election looming in February.

Both diplomats requested anonymity in order to speak more freely.

Sharon, who suffered a stroke in January 2006 that left him in a coma, had argued that disengagement from Gaza would improve Israel's strategic position and bolster "moderate forces" among the Palestinians "who want to make the right choice."

Palestinian leaders, however, were never able, or willing, to begin building their state in Gaza.

Even without its troops or the 9,000 Jewish settlers in place, Israel retained a chokehold over the strip, controlling major land crossings into Israel, Gaza's airspace and the waters off its Mediterranean seacoast.

Then, in January 2006, the Palestinians, with strong backing from the Bush administration, held legislative elections. Over Israeli misgivings, Hamas — which has questioned Israel's right to exist and which the U.S. and Israel consider terrorist group — was allowed to participate.

Hamas won a majority of seats, benefiting from the perceived corruption and incompetence of Abbas's Fatah faction.

"The United States should have anticipated a result it didn't like, and it should have played it better," said Jon Alterman, of the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies.

"Hamas has much more power now than it did three years ago," he said.

After the elections, the Bush administration began an effort to reverse the results, McClatchy reported in 2007, but it failed to weaken the group or persuade it to modify its hard-line views. As the months went on, Washington opposed Arab efforts to form a Palestinian unity government and pressed Abbas to confront Hamas.

In June 2007, after months of factional fighting, Hamas forces overran Gaza, ousting Fatah's foreign-armed and trained security forces. The U.S. rounded up diplomatic and financial support for Abbas, and Israel responded by clamping down harder on Gaza.

An uneasy, Egyptian-mediated truce expired this month and Hamas began intensifying its rocket attacks from Gaza into Israel.

Scarred by their experience in the Lebanon war of 2006, when Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's promise to eliminate Hezbollah proved to be a mirage, Israeli leaders are offering narrow military goals for the Gaza operation.

The senior Israeli diplomat declined to outline a political endgame. He said he hoped that Palestinians would compare life under Hamas in Gaza with the West Bank, where economic conditions are much better and Palestinian security forces are becoming increasingly capable.

Other observers warned that Hamas, should it survive the siege intact, could end up emboldened.

"It's highly possible that this will be a rallying point for Hamas. I believe it will weaken Mahmoud Abbas," said Steven Cook, a senior fellow at the nonpartisan Council on Foreign Relations.

A State Department official, speaking on condition of anonymity, acknowledged that despite investing political capital and diplomatic energy in recent years, the U.S. "has not strengthened Fatah and (Abbas) in a very clear fashion."

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/58812.html

[mawilson 2,133]

...but to some here - the guilt by association works perfectly. Palestinians voted for the Hamas therefore they support terrorism. Every Palestinian man, woman and child bares the bloodstains of all Jews killed ever, past and present by proxy. And if they really don't think that way, they would simply get rid of the Hamas themselves, like the Afghans got rid of the Taliban, or how the Iraqi people got rid of Saddam.

Let me spell it out for you:

1) Hamas were *always* about violence, conflict and outright war with Israel.

2) The majority of Palestinians voted for Hamas.

They wanted war, they got it.

Following your logic, then Israel did too - they propped up the Hamas in hopes of marginalizing the PLO.

There's no logic in what you just said.

[aidan80 9]

Typical of religion!.. Most of the various "groups" and their "God's" proclaim and think of course they are "Right" and the other guy is "Bad" because ______ (Fill in the blank)... So they do what their "God's" usually tell them not to do.. Kill the other guy, bash his face in till he "Converts" or accepts the others point of view or gives back ______ (Fill in the blank)? Proof if ever there was that humans came from "Cavemen" and some/most of us have yet to evolve/grow up a bit more to get past that. Religion and politics are the two single worst things I've ever in my life had to witness being put together and being forced on the people.

Don't get me wrong, I'm far from an atheist I do believe in God I just don't believe he/she put us here just so we can find new and exciting ways to blow each other to bits. Now if there's a Devil or an Anti-God then yes maybe he/she put us here just for the fun of watching us murder each other in new and exciting ways!

[one...two...tree 2,762]

...but to some here - the guilt by association works perfectly. Palestinians voted for the Hamas therefore they support terrorism. Every Palestinian man, woman and child bares the bloodstains of all Jews killed ever, past and present by proxy. And if they really don't think that way, they would simply get rid of the Hamas themselves, like the Afghans got rid of the Taliban, or how the Iraqi people got rid of Saddam.

Let me spell it out for you:

1) Hamas were *always* about violence, conflict and outright war with Israel.

2) The majority of Palestinians voted for Hamas.

They wanted war, they got it.

Following your logic, then Israel did too - they propped up the Hamas in hopes of marginalizing the PLO.

There's no logic in what you just said.

Following your logic - Israel must have wanted to be at war too. To lay blame entirely on the Palestinian people who voted the Hamas into government is inaccurate.

"Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years. Israel 'aided Hamas directly – the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization),' said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic [and International] Studies. Israel's support for Hamas 'was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,' said a former senior CIA official."

Middle East analyst Ray Hanania concurs:

"In addition to hoping to turn the Palestinian masses away from Arafat and the PLO, the Likud leadership believed they could achieve a workable alliance with Islamic, anti-Arafat forces that would also extend Israel's control over the occupied territories."

In a conscious effort to undermine the Palestine Liberation Organization and the leadership of Yasser Arafat, in 1978 the government of then-Prime Minister Menachem Begin approved the application of Sheik Ahmad Yassin to start a "humanitarian" organization known as the Islamic Association, or Mujama. The roots of this Islamist group were in the fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood, and this was the seed that eventually grew into Hamas – but not before it was amply fertilized and nurtured with Israeli funding and political support.

http://www.counterpunch.org/hanania01182003.html

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I think he has a point though - Palestinians were frustrated with Arafat and the PLO and what the election of hamas signifies is that the Palestinians were generally more militant than the old government that represented them.

Unfortunately Arafat wasn't effective controlling the extremists and this was compounded by the Israelis shelling his compound and rendering him totally impotent.

Again this conflict has been characterized by short sighted and counter-productive decision making on the part of the Israelis and increasing extremism on the part of the palestinians.

Attacking government might make sense militarily but it has the side effect of rendering it impossible for a stable administration that can be negotiated with to develop.

Edited January 5, 2009 by Paul Daniels