VISA DENIED 2ND TIME!!!

[chiquita 0]

I only offer my advice because all the work I did paid off with a visa from Morocco and it has helped other couples get their visas from Morocco also. In fact every couple I and my husband helped has gotten their visa. And I hope my advice helps others.

Paula

Just curious - what do you mean by this exactly? Are you an immigration attorney? How are you helping couples get visas?

She gives her experience and feels that because she got a visa, follow what worked for her.

I worked my butt off preparing and my husband had a 5 minute interview wherein the CO lied and told my husband "I need more info from America" leading my husband to think our file needed more paperwork. When in reality he denied us because there is an age difference (which BTW was addressed in my letter enclosed with my petition and with my proof of of relationship for the CO [which BTW he refused to look at], therefore addressing our red flags at all levels).

I don't think she really helped others, she gives her advice and takes the credit for them getting a visa.

You see Paula, that is what you are offereing...advice, advice from your experience which is good. But you were approved not denied. I remember when you ou offered it to a few ladies advice and they didn't take it, you blew up at them. Man that was so sad. My heart went out to them.

I would think that the culture in Morocco is one that is put in to consideration. I am not sure, But maybe you should try another visa. One thing that I say one this trend and I plan on doing is visiting more than once. AI am muslim and a wedding is a big deal, so to not have one would bring about a question I think. I am not sure and I am learning from you experince, I am engaged to a Moroccoan and I am scared to death that there will be problems. But can you tell how many times you been to Morocco, and the conditions you meet. i meet my fiance through my friend who is his cousin. We have been chating and emailing. We want to get maaried and I am going to meet him. But I am sure I will have a hard time. I am thining of just going over there and marrying him legally, so that we can do the K-3 but I dont know. And do you have to do the K-3 at the Embassy?

There are a few yahoo groups you can join who can help you with all of your questions.

PM me and I'll let you know.

Look like the Consulate wont let you bring your boy toys to the US anymore.

Anytime you have a combination of age, religion, culture, or language differences, you will be raising a red flag. If these are contrary to the usual culture there, then they are not going to believe in the validity of your relationship. They are allowed to make subjective judgements like many of you are finding out.

They dont believe that many of these relationships are based on love, but based upon other motives. His motives or your motives.

Well you piss me off too.

How dare you insinuate our beloveds are "boy toys".

You aren't worth the effort to insult.

Our case was approved as easy as pie. My husband was asked about his work and asked only to explain what my job title meant. I don't go on to assume that we somehow prepared our case better than anyone else.

He didn't go to the interview with a sectioned off binder, I wasn't there, I had only been to Morocco once, and the I-129F I had submitted was very slim in comparison to one I have read about on here. We got lucky... whatever.. but I would never claim or imply we somehow did it better than someone else.

The consulate is NOT doing what they are supposed. One only has to look at the protocols they are supposed to follow to know they are not in adherance. Whether or not there may be some justification for returning these cases is actually an entirely separate issue. None of these couples have been given the opportunity to overcome their petitions being returned at the consulate level and that ALONE is wrong.

Rebecca

I am so happy for you Rebecca and I respect your honesty.

I too prepared a huge binder (with each page enclosed in a plastic sleeve) separated by dividers for different sections (e mail logs, phone bills, photos, travel info, letters, etc.) and felt I made it so easy for the CO to just thumb through it. I also had an index for each section. The CO never gave my husband an opportunuity to show it as he gave him the 221g letter within 5 minutes of the interview.

I do think it is good to post our experiences to help others. We need to help each other in this diificult area. It is when someone offers her opinion and says "this is what worked for me so it will work for you" idealogy I dislike. I would sure hate to see someone denied based on her opinions.

Look like the Consulate wont let you bring your boy toys to the US anymore.

Anytime you have a combination of age, religion, culture, or language differences, you will be raising a red flag. If these are contrary to the usual culture there, then they are not going to believe in the validity of your relationship. They are allowed to make subjective judgements like many of you are finding out.

They dont believe that many of these relationships are based on love, but based upon other motives. His motives or your motives.

I hope that your "boy toy" comment was not serious, seriously.

sarah ... meet the fox!! he is always serious!!

MAYBE THAT IS WHY YOU ARE UNDER CONSTRUCTION.....

Look like the Consulate wont let you bring your boy toys to the US anymore.

Anytime you have a combination of age, religion, culture, or language differences, you will be raising a red flag. If these are contrary to the usual culture there, then they are not going to believe in the validity of your relationship. They are allowed to make subjective judgements like many of you are finding out.

They dont believe that many of these relationships are based on love, but based upon other motives. His motives or your motives.

Care to enlighten us as to who the "you" is there in your first statement? Sounds like you're addressing the entire ME/NA forum, or maybe just those of us with SOs from Morocco?

And many couples have a "a combination of age, religion, culture, or language differences", not just those from ME/NA. What are you trying to say exactly?

Good question and the answer is??????

[diadromous mermaid 36]

I would sure hate to see someone denied based on her opinions.

Denials are based on opinions of the ConOff as to how well the visa applicant addresses the requirement that have been laid out by law. How else could those determinations be made? Are you suggesting that the ConOffs are not qualified to render a decision?

[kerewin21 2]

I can't seem to get the quotes to work, so I've put Zyggy's comments in italics

Actually this is not exactly the case, the CO has the authority to send a petition back to the USCIS if in their opinion there is evidence that if the USCIS had known it would have resulted in a different outcome on their end. The evidence does not need to be written, it can be empirical, cultural or otherwise...

From http://travel.state.gov/visa/laws/telegram...grams_1415.html

4. Providing solid evidence of fraud or misrepresentation in a petition relationship may not be achievable in many cases, particularly those involving marriage or relationship fraud. The FAM guidance on revocations makes this point on several occasions -- posts seeking revocations must show the "factual and concrete reasons for revocation." BCIS has asked us to remind consular officers that revocation requests must provide solid, factual evidence of fraud or misrepresentation, evidence that is likely to stand up in a court of law. In the case of sham marriages, for example, 9 FAM 42.43 N2.2 notes that BCIS requires at the least either documentary evidence that money changed hands between the petitioner and beneficiary or factual evidence that would convince "a reasonable person" that the marriage was entered into solely to evade immigration laws. Without such evidence, BCIS will be unlikely to obtain a petition''s revocation if a petitioner chooses to contest a notice of intent to revoke.

So it can't just be cultural... Saying that muslim men don't marry older women certainly wouldn't hold up in a court of law.

From http://travel.state.gov/visa/laws/telegram...grams_1388.html

6. In adjudicating visa cases involving petitions, posts should

bear in mind three important factors: A. the consular officer''s

role in the petition process is to determine if there is

substantial evidence relevant to petition validity not

previously considered by DHS, and not to merely readjudicate the

petition; B. the memo supporting the petition return must

clearly show the factual and concrete reasons for recommending

revocation (observations made by the consular officer cannot be

conclusive, speculative, equivocal or irrelevant) and; C.

consular officers must provide to the applicant in writing as

full an explanation as possible of the legal and factual basis

for the visa denial and petition return.

From http://travel.state.gov/visa/laws/telegram...grams_1415.html

Where Congress has placed responsibility and

authority with DHS to determine whether the requirements for

status which are examined in the petition process have been met,

consular officers do not have the authority to question the

approval of petitions without specific evidence, generally

unavailable to DHS at the time of petition approval, that the

beneficiary may not be entitled to status (see 9 FAM 41.53, Note

2, 41.54 Note 3.2-2, 41.55 Note 8, 41.56 Note 10, 41.57 Note 6,

and 42.43 Note 2) due to fraud, changes in circumstances or

clear error on the part of DHS in approving the petition.

Conoffs should not assume that a petition should be revoked

simply because they would have reached a different decision if

adjudicating the petition.

Second of all, the rules say that the petitioner and beneficiary may present additional evidence attempting to refute the CO's decision prior to the petition's being sent back. Most of the Moroccan petitions, on the contrary, have been sent back the following day. It's pretty hard to present additional evidence when you don't know what the CO's objection is and they send the application back immediately.

Can you cite the provision where this is the case...

I saw this in the Foreign Affairs Manual

9 FAM 41.81 Notes

d. Consular officers should return the K-1 petition to DHS for reconsideration if not satisfied with respect to the bona fides of the relationship or if the petitioner indicates that he or she no longer intends to go forward with the marriage.

I see nothing in the FAM that states that the opportunity for more information must be given...

Again from http://travel.state.gov/visa/laws/telegram...grams_1415.html

Rather, a consular officer should only seek revocation of the petition if the officer knows, or has reason to believe, that the petition approval was obtained through fraud, misrepresentation or other unlawful means, or that the beneficiary is not entitled to the status conferred by the petition. Petitions generally should not be returned unless the post uncovers new information not known to BCIS at the time of petition approval. The FAM cautions that posts should seek revocations "sparingly," to avoid inconveniencing the petitioners and applicants and to avoid creating an additional administrative burden for BCIS.

and

VO supports this use of 221(g) with IV petitions, as returning a petition based on suspicion alone is not appropriate, and providing the applicant an opportunity to address post''s doubts is a fairer way of dealing with suspect cases. We encourage posts to use 221(g), except in those IV cases in which fraud, misrepresentation, or ineligibility for status can be clearly established. 221(g) allows petitioners and beneficiaries to supplement the initial application and in many cases overcome the refusal.

and

Posts should be generous in allowing applicants every opportunity to supplement their applications following a 221(g) refusal.

So you're right, it is only strongly encouraged that people be given the opportunity to refute the CO's decision. I don't think it's too much to ask that COs do what they are strongly encouraged to do.

You can find more here in a very helpful thread created by a woman whose petition for her fiance was sent back to DHS.

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2687

[chiquita 0]

.....And just because a visa is approved doesn't make the case somehow legit. I know of a few women who found out their husband's real intentions once they got here. This consulate isn't that great at sniffing out fraud and obviously will erroneously deny visas to completely legitimate petitions as well.

Rebecca

This pretty much reflects what I meant. The Consulate does not consider these to be valid relationships, and choses to send the petition back to the USCIS. You may not like my words, but iit's kind of hard to refute them based upon what is actually happening.

If your petition gets returned....its because they dont believe you or they dont believe your young spouse.

Look like the Consulate wont let you bring your boy toys to the US anymore.

Anytime you have a combination of age, religion, culture, or language differences, you will be raising a red flag. If these are contrary to the usual culture there, then they are not going to believe in the validity of your relationship. They are allowed to make subjective judgements like many of you are finding out.

They dont believe that many of these relationships are based on love, but based upon other motives. His motives or your motives.

I hope that your "boy toy" comment was not serious, seriously.

sarah ... meet the fox!! he is always serious!!

Thumbs down to that.

Desert Fox are you familiar with the Moroccan Consulate? You cannot generalize about Consulates because they are all a little different especially the one in Casablanca. I'm wondering if you have experienced filing through Morocco to say what you did? (I'm assuming not since under your name it says Spain).

nope...I only know what I read here, and what the logical conclusions are.

Dont get me wrong....if you have a valid relationship, then I hope you get approved...just be ready for a rough ride as they have been burned before and now want and need to be more convinced.

Not many young Morrocan men are married to women some 20 years older than they are. Its a RED flag!!!

So how much you know. Their prophet's first marriage was to a woman much older to him.

I would sure hate to see someone denied based on her opinions.

Denials are based on opinions of the ConOff as to how well the visa applicant addresses the requirement that have been laid out by law. How else could those determinations be made? Are you suggesting that the ConOffs are not qualified to render a decision?

Untrue, denials must be from concrete evidence, not suspision or opinions!

Nope, not at all. However, they need to follow the law, not their thier opinions. This is the problem.

[diadromous mermaid 36]

Untrue, denials must be from concrete evidence, not suspision or opinions!

Nope, not at all. However, they need to follow the law, not their thier opinions. This is the problem.

You missed the point. Opinions as to whether the applicant meets the requirement as established by law and regulation, of which the ConOff is and should be aware. Now, in the case of an alien at an interview, there are many factors involved: demeanour and comportment, answers to enquiries, evidence etc. All come into play. If a ConOff does not ask for evidence, it could be that something in the other factors triggered an impression, that he/she believes could not be overcome. However, not being there, and not being the ConOff all of this is simply idle speculation. If the ConOff in Chiquita's opening post stated that he/she did not believe the relationship is real, then one has to conclude one of two points:

1) Either the applicant demonstrated genuine eligibility in all areas being reviewed as above, and the ConOff made a mistake and the applicant is eligible for the visa

2) Or the ConOff picked up on something which lead him/her to believe that the applicant is not

It would be wrong for us to determine which of the two was the case. It could be either.

Edited June 21, 2006 by diadromous mermaid

[Fandango 1,439]

let me tell ya, you piss me off! you must be a CO to say the things you say.

nice attitude!! paula offered sound advice that, frankly, anyone on this entire board could use when prepping for their interview. it's a shame that you can't keep emotions out of this and had to reply in such a derogatory fashion.

Let me tell ya ####### is wrong...she has no idea of what happens to a couple who are denied a visa.

I agree being PREPARED is the most important thing one can do. Since she has no experience with denials how on earth can she give advice? In her opinion...that is exactly it...hers.

Some of her advice is WRONG! (more on that later...)

I can't keep my emotions out of this because I want my husband here and there is NOT ONE REASON for him not to be here!!!!!!!!!!

So, like I said, she pisses me off and she sounds like a CO...(oooooo don't piss them off or you'll get denied!!!) That is a bunch of #######.

Paula is giving advice on other groups as well when she shouldn't. Not everthing works for everyone. That's so narrow minded. There are many many issues to consider.

I'm just a little confused, is this thread about your husband or your friend's?

Oh, and I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing, but I did google

Dictionary

boy toy

n. Slang.

A young man who is the lover of an often older, more prosperous person.

in theory, that's not neccessarily an insult, just what it is....

[chiquita 0]

Instead of everyone focusing their energies on how the consulate doesn't have a right to do what they did (which by the way they do)... maybe everyone should be focusing their energies on solutions...

I AGREE...THAT IS WHAT I WAS ASKING FOR.

As you have all figured out, the consulate has every right to make subjective jodgements on the validity of a relationship. It help to know what the job of the CO is and what their position is. Their position is to keep people out of the US..

WHY???

meaning that they only have to give out a visa to individuals who have proven without a doubt in their mind that they are eligible for it.

I DISAGREE...they must follow the law which casa is NOT doing.

However, they are not permitted to second guess the USCIS. Meaning that if evidence about the validity of the relation was presented to the USCIS and accepted by the USCIS, they have to find another way to send the petition back...

ONCE AGAIN I AGREE...casa violates the DOS and USCIS laws and guidelines.

So the solution to the problem is to find out what would need to be provided to the Consular Officer in the form of physical, subjective evidence that would lead them to the conclusion that the marriage was not entered into for the purposes of subverting immigration laws.

MANY MANY couples have done all of this, but the CO doesn't want to see it!! Instead they lie to the beneficiary and return the case "due to the validity of the relationship". Casa will not even tell the petitioner why the case was returned like they are supposed to do.

Unfortunately, there have been many many documented cases of people who have had significant age differences having problems with fradulaent marriages...

SOOOOOOOOOOOOO...who is to judge my marriage? Not all American marriages are valid. What's the point? Our government is the marriage police? Hmmmmm...wonder why they didn't help all the women killed and maimed by their husband in this country? Sounds just as ridiculous.

Keep in mind that every action that you do is being weighed by the consular officer. So even though the presence of the USC is not required, the mere statement that the USC is in the next room, outside the consulate, etc. means a lot to the CO in showing the the relationship is valid.

MAYBE...one woman was with her fiancee waiting outside while he was in the consulate being interviewed...didn't help them.

There have been individuals who have brought their SO's US passport into the interview to show the CO that their SO was indeed in the country waiting for them... believe me.. it speaks volumes. As other have said, the CO's know that there was some sacrifice made on the part of the USC to be there. The fact that that sacrifice was made says a lot...

WELL, that could be true. I now believe that all couples should be at the consulate for the interview, just in case...

In addition, then comment made by several people here on what to do in the interview are right on... criticising them is completely misguided... and misses the point.

NOT TRUE, if the info incorrect.

The goal is to get your SO into the US to be with you.. you should be willing to jump through whatever hoops that would get you there. If that takes a big wedding ceremony because that is what the culture expects, then you do it.. if it's taking on the phone every day.. then you do it... if it takes making a gift to the family's mosque, you do it..

I AGREE, but I think it is wrong. When one marries here they don't have to "jump through hoops etc" to be together. This is just plain wrong. I believe each couple needs to be fairly interviewed and allowed to establish they indeed have a valid relationship. PEOPLE>>>listen up>>>>

IT DOESN'T HAPPEN IN CAS!!!!

Keep your eye on the prize and you'll get there faster..

YES, SO WE HOPE!

[Fandango 1,439]

clarifying about the 'boy toy' bit: just showing that the def wasn't saying anything about either party having fraudulent intentions, forgot that bit :/

Edited June 21, 2006 by LisaD

[Jenn! 918]

clarifying about the 'boy toy' bit: just showing that the def wasn't saying anything about either party having fraudulent intentions, forgot that bit :/

Even the definition for "boy toy" you found would suggest a relationship that is not valid as far as U.S. immigration is concerned. A relationship that is not valid would be considered fraudulent, no?

[Together4ever 1]

Untrue, denials must be from concrete evidence, not suspision or opinions!

Nope, not at all. However, they need to follow the law, not their thier opinions. This is the problem.

You missed the point. Opinions as to whether the applicant meets the requirement as established by law and regulation, of which the ConOff is and should be aware. Now, in the case of an alien at an interview, there are many factors involved: demeanour and comportment, answers to enquiries, evidence etc. All come into play. If a ConOff does not ask for evidence, it could be that something in the other factors triggered an impression, that he/she believes could not be overcome. However, not being there, and not being the ConOff all of this is simply idle speculation. If the ConOff in Chiquita's opening post stated that he/she did not believe the relationship is real, then one has to conclude one of two points:

1) Either the applicant demonstrated genuine eligibility in all areas being reviewed as above, and the ConOff made a mistake and the applicant is eligible for the visa

2) Or the ConOff picked up on something which lead him/her to believe that the applicant is not

It would be wrong for us to determine which of the two was the case. It could be either.

Are you an immigration lawyer? Or have you studied immigration law?

I've read alot about this and everyone's interpretation comes down to a consular officer cannot base a decision on speculation or opinion, they have to have substantial proof.

[desert_fox 32]

I don't know why this person feels compelled to come out of no where with no knowledge of what is going on and deliver us the word on "reallity" which he has no idea about.

The reality is that you aint got a visa (or whomever this applies to), and you aint about to get one. That is REALITY...this is what is happening. You need to change your approach in dealing with this Consulate if indeed, your relationships are valid.

For instance...you got to show that you are into the culture...you respect their ways of doing things...you participate...etc. as opposed to someone here who didnt want to get involved in the traditional wedding or whatever it was.....Im not even going to bother to look.

Dont like "boy toy"??....how about puppies??....my friend also uses that one.

[Together4ever 1]

I don't know why this person feels compelled to come out of no where with no knowledge of what is going on and deliver us the word on "reallity" which he has no idea about.

Dont like "boy toy"??....how about puppies??....my friend also uses that one.

OK pal, this is just plain unnecessary. Really. Take your nasty attitude elsewhere, or speak with a level head. Enough is enough. Your previous point was valid to an extent but if you're going to behave like this I doubt many are going to take you seriously.

This is supposed to be a forum for information and help. I don't see how this helping. Yes I lost my temper at you and it's all I can do remain somewhat level at this point. I do not believe this forum was intended a sparring arena where people can come and pick on eachother.

And I see you're still lurking... why?

Edited June 22, 2006 by just_waiting

[desert_fox 32]

Im just pointing out facts.........if you have cultural differences......such is the case in Moracco...plus its on the US State Dept hit list requiring extra processing and investigation...you aint getting a visa..

What could be more clear when you have all these cultural and other differences that the Consulate sees as not being a valid relationship. The US wife (fiancee) isnt going to be able to change this as she is blinded. Its up to the the your SO in Morocco to impress the Consulate to the point he/she feels that this is indeed a valid relationship.

Im not against older women/younger men....matters not to me. Even my ex-wife has a boy toy (9 years) and they get along great.

So you can run up another 7 pages here, or decide on what you can do to convince the Consulate that this younger man is indeed the love of your life, and he cant wait to marry you no matter where you live.

[Jenn! 918]

So you can run up another 7 pages here, or decide on what you can do to convince the Consulate that this younger man is indeed the love of your life, and he cant wait to marry you no matter where you live.

Well, that's exactly what everyone here has been brainstorming. It seems that some CO's are not even interested in seeing this sort of evidence. It's as if they've already made up their minds about the relationship based solely on the age difference. If they're concerned about the younger man's intentions, I don't think that showing reams of email correspondence is going to make a bit of difference.

Any ideas on how to prove that someone is the love of your life when a CO doesn't think that love can exist under certain circumstances?

[iceyspots 0]

In regards to saying It's OK that we have a big age difference, Mohammed had an older wife... I mean, really can't the CO refute that by stating how many wives he had and how many he had at one time? I mean, come on, that was one era and this is another...

All you have to do is ask yourself, if you have a fiance/husband from the ME/NA, would he marry a morroccan woman who is much older than him? would he marry a divorced morroccan woman? would he marry a morroccan woman with kids? ask him as well.. it is more the exception than the rule there.