VISA DENIED 2ND TIME!!!

[soul_encounter 0]

First, I am so sorry to hear of this tragedy. When visiting my fiance in Morocco this year, I met a couple (american woman, moroccan man, 12 year age difference, she had 3 previous divorces) and her fiance got the same interrogation about the age difference, and also her previous marriages. Evidently, she was asked to write a "reply" to the consular officers findings. In the consular officers letter of findings he had written "It is highly unusual/unlikely for a moroccan man to marry a woman so much older than himself or one who has been previously married" She did not have any legal assistance and was at a loss for what to write, so I did some research for her and used "cultural" and "religious" beliefs to be the basis to refute that officers findings. I wish I had this letter saved still, but do research to support that moroccan (muslim) men, do not see an age difference as a factor in marriage or the woman having been previously married. In short, Mohammeds first and great love of his life was Khadija whom he met at the age of 25 and when she was 40. She had been previously married as well. While she was alive, he did not take any other wives. It is hard for any consular to argue with something, modeled after that persons prophet.

[chiquita 0]

First, I am so sorry to hear of this tragedy. When visiting my fiance in Morocco this year, I met a couple (american woman, moroccan man, 12 year age difference, she had 3 previous divorces) and her fiance got the same interrogation about the age difference, and also her previous marriages. Evidently, she was asked to write a "reply" to the consular officers findings. In the consular officers letter of findings he had written "It is highly unusual/unlikely for a moroccan man to marry a woman so much older than himself or one who has been previously married" She did not have any legal assistance and was at a loss for what to write, so I did some research for her and used "cultural" and "religious" beliefs to be the basis to refute that officers findings. I wish I had this letter saved still, but do research to support that moroccan (muslim) men, do not see an age difference as a factor in marriage or the woman having been previously married. In short, Mohammeds first and great love of his life was Khadija whom he met at the age of 25 and when she was 40. She had been previously married as well. While she was alive, he did not take any other wives. It is hard for any consular to argue with something, modeled after that persons prophet.

Yes, we know that. Thanks so much for the reply!

[~kiyah~ 14]

Chi...has your friend tried contacting the consulate directly? I know a lot of times this is a fruitless effort, but it can be done as I did in the beginning of this mess (not that I got positive results). Also have her congressman contact them like Mary's did. I would be hiring an attorney immediately as well.

Yes the age difference is a HUGE issue with Casa...szsz, you posted your age difference earlier. Believe me, this WILL be an issue wuth Casa and you need to be prepared for it. There is a 9 year age difference between my SO and me...this is exactly why our petition was returned. This is a red flag that Casa will use to their advantage, Chi and other members like us have seen it time and time again in Morocco, we are living this reality.

I just can't imagine going through all this and having them deny it again...and for a stupid reason like "I don't believe your husband loves you." Casa does not follow the regulations

I can tell you this, your friend needs to get her congressman involved...somone further up mentioned congress not wanting to look hypocritical in the middle of this illegal immigration ####### and that is soooo correct.

You are correct, this is an absolute abuse of power...I do not care what anyone else says. Those of us who have been affected like this know exactly what is going on in Morocco. This is not just a simple case of they need training to spot marriage fraud...they do have this training. The abuse of power here has got to be addressed...I know a lot of us are afraid to address this for fear of being singled out when our husband gets another interview in Casa. I am not even sure anymore this is a message that Casa is sending out to the DOS/DHS. Something needs to be done at a higher level in a way that does not single out one case or couple.

I pray for your friend and her husband...I cannot imagine being denied again after going through this process of petition being returned. It is just infathomable. I would be very interested in finding out about your friend contacting congress and what happens with that avenue. I certainly would not hesitate in contacting the consulate in Casa myself...then contacting the embassy Rabat.

~Kiya~

[frndly1 1]

Chiquita, I am so sorry for asking a dang on question. I read the post and it said that he was asked about 50 questions then the CO denied so I asked if possible something was said that may have triggered this reaction from the CO.

I don't speak much on these boards and when I just asked a harmless question I get insulted.

Everyone have a good day.

Does any one know if the husband may have said something to trigger this CO's deision?

I feel for this person.

What does that matter? This case was reaffirimed by USCIS for DOS to take action on, yet they gave the infamous 221g letter with nothing marked and verbably saying she doesn't beleive he loves his wife after being married for more than 2 years. If that is not abuse of power, I sure don't know what is. The CO is to be VERY clear in why they will not issue a visa in the case of immigrants. Yet Casa has a history for not following the laws.

I don't understand why the ppl here don't get it...why does it have to be that the couple did something wrong??????????? I know in our case and most of the denied cases the couples did nothing wrong. The problem is the CO....age difference....denied!!! Period! Case sent back to USCIS.

This is the same problem I ran into last year when I first shared what happened to us. Everyone figured we did something wrong and those who were issued visas did the right thing. I guess most will never understand until it happens to them. I am so glad there is a group to go to for support, cuz it isn't here.

Edited June 10, 2006 by frndly1

[chiquita 0]

Chi...has your friend tried contacting the consulate directly? I know a lot of times this is a fruitless effort, but it can be done as I did in the beginning of this mess (not that I got positive results). Also have her congressman contact them like Mary's did. I would be hiring an attorney immediately as well.

Yes the age difference is a HUGE issue with Casa...szsz, you posted your age difference earlier. Believe me, this WILL be an issue wuth Casa and you need to be prepared for it. There is a 9 year age difference between my SO and me...this is exactly why our petition was returned. This is a red flag that Casa will use to their advantage, Chi and other members like us have seen it time and time again in Morocco, we are living this reality.

I just can't imagine going through all this and having them deny it again...and for a stupid reason like "I don't believe your husband loves you." Casa does not follow the regulations

I can tell you this, your friend needs to get her congressman involved...somone further up mentioned congress not wanting to look hypocritical in the middle of this illegal immigration ####### and that is soooo correct.

You are correct, this is an absolute abuse of power...I do not care what anyone else says. Those of us who have been affected like this know exactly what is going on in Morocco. This is not just a simple case of they need training to spot marriage fraud...they do have this training. The abuse of power here has got to be addressed...I know a lot of us are afraid to address this for fear of being singled out when our husband gets another interview in Casa. I am not even sure anymore this is a message that Casa is sending out to the DOS/DHS. Something needs to be done at a higher level in a way that does not single out one case or couple.

I pray for your friend and her husband...I cannot imagine being denied again after going through this process of petition being returned. It is just infathomable. I would be very interested in finding out about your friend contacting congress and what happens with that avenue. I certainly would not hesitate in contacting the consulate in Casa myself...then contacting the embassy Rabat.

~Kiya~

Thanks Kiya. I am waiting to hear back from her. She works full time and is trying to get this all taken care of.

I advise her to call the consulate and to send an email as well. I need to find the number to the embassy in Rabat and give that to her too.

Her representaive is working on finding out what is going on. I am not sure if it was her senator or congressman. She called me after I worked three 12 hours shifts and I was so tired.

I am just hoping, really hoping her husband misunderstood and he has the infamous 221g for AP. This is my hope!!!!!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

szsz, you posted your age difference earlier. Believe me, this WILL be an issue wuth Casa and you need to be prepared for it.

Thanks, Kiya. We were advised about age discrimination at the consulate long ago, so we've decided to face that and any other issues that may send up red flags head on in the I-130 before they raise it. I brought up the history of Khadijah and the Prophet (pbuh) on an earlier post; it is among the valid evidence that should be employed as religious precedent.

I'm going to leave this issue now as there some tension growing that I don't need, and there is little more that I can contribute further other than to repeat the advice to contact relevant congressional representatives and get a lawyer. I also posted an inquiry to solicit information from others

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17164

and can suggest this article that was contributed by a lawyer who posts on VJ

http://www.ilw.com/articles/2006,0323-ellis.shtm

Chiquite, I know this is painful, but if you fought and won, then have some confidence that your friend will too. Best wishes to all!

[chiquita 0]

Chiquita, I am so sorry for asking a dang on question. I read the post and it said that he was asked about 50 questions then the CO denied so I asked if possible something was said that may have triggered this reaction from the CO.

I don't speak much on these boards and when I just asked a harmless question I get insulted.

Everyone have a good day.

I am so sorry...I as well meant no harm!! I meant no insult at all. Please forgive me if I came across as such. This is a very frustrating situation and I am looking to help her. There should be nothing to triggering the responce from the CO as this has been reaffirmed by USCIS who verifies the relationship throghoughly before sending the case back to DOS.

I know a lot of ppl here do not know the process of returned cases, I was just hoping for advice with laws and guidelines to help them. We pretty much know the process up to this point. The couple is in a desperate situation and I want to help

[morocco4ever 63]

Chiguita, I don't know why I didn't think of this before. Maybe one of these 2 could help. I don't have their phone numbers, but maybe you could find them so you can save time.

Dale Rumbarger

for

Julia Furuta-Toy

Director of Public and Diplomatic Liaison Visa Services

Washington, D.C. 20520

You can also write to:

Maura Harty

Assistant Secretary, Bureau of Consular Affairs

Washington, D.C. 20520

[ForeverAmen 0]

First of all, I am sorry you and your friends are having to go through this hassel. My husband (fiance at the time) was initially told that he did not have sufficient evidence of our relationship. I already had a strange feeling that this would be an issue. So I immediately started doing 'little' things as it pertains to our communication.

#1) STOP using calling cards unless you know for sure you can track your calls. I mailed to my husband over $1500.00 worth of used calling cards. But according to the embassy, a calling card does not prove 'who' you talked to. So we signed up for www.pingo.com at now have a record of our calls made (the rate was even cheaper than a calling card)

#2) EMAIL, EMAIL, EMAIL! In the case of my husband and I, we communicated via phone 90% of the time. When my husband was told to come back with more information I literally stayed in front of the computer for hours printing out every single email between he and I, and even emails from friends that mentioned his name (do a word search in your email file for your husbands name).

#3) Ask friends and family members to write notarized letters stating that they know about your relationship and approve it as well.

#4) Submit Western Union receipts between the two of you

#5) Never give up! Coach your husband on his approach while in the embassy. Sound confident about your relationship, and assured that he knows that a visa will be issued. Be careful not to come across as cocky.

#6) Believe that the best will come forth. The mind is a powerful thing.

I wish you well!

[chiquita 0]

szsz, you posted your age difference earlier. Believe me, this WILL be an issue wuth Casa and you need to be prepared for it.

Thanks, Kiya. We were advised about age discrimination at the consulate long ago, so we've decided to face that and any other issues that may send up red flags head on in the I-130 before they raise it. I brought up the history of Khadijah and the Prophet (pbuh) on an earlier post; it is among the valid evidence that should be employed as religious precedent.

I'm going to leave this issue now as there some tension growing that I don't need, and there is little more that I can contribute further other than to repeat the advice to contact relevant congressional representatives and get a lawyer. I also posted an inquiry to solicit information from others

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17164

and can suggest this article that was contributed by a lawyer who posts on VJ

http://www.ilw.com/articles/2006,0323-ellis.shtm

Chiquite, I know this is painful, but if you fought and won, then have some confidence that your friend will too. Best wishes to all!

Thanks!

Let me advise you there is something that Marc wrote that is not true in Casa.

He wrote >>>>>>

The beneficiary interviews at a US Consulate and her case is not approved at the time of the interview. Rather, the interviewing officer first refuses the visa application under INA 221(g), and requests more information about the relationship.

After the petitioner and beneficiary provide the information, the consular officer decides that the petition should be returned to USCIS for review with the recommendation that it be revoked because it’s the officer’s view that a reasonable person would believe the relationship exists solely or primarily to convey an immigration benefit.

This does not happen in Casa...requests more information about the relationship. Instead the case is denied the same day of the interview and returned to USCIS without either the petitioner or the benefiary knowing why. Trust me this exactly what happens!!! We only find out much later when out senator or congressman make an inquiry for us. I know many many couples who have gone througth Casa and this is exactly what has happened to them.

I know that sooooooooo many ppl and even embassies say it doesnt happen, but I am here to tell everyone it indeed does happen. And for no other reason that the woman being older than the man. PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!

My husbands interview lasted 5 minutes, the CO reused to look at our proof, and returned our case to USCIS. I had taken great pains in creating a binder filled with pictures of us and family, copies of e mails, phone records and so much more. I had it all in plastic sleeves and had sections for each topic. I went to great length to make it so easy for the CO to just thumb through it for our proof of relationship. Guess what??? He refused to even look at it, yet we were denied "due to the validity of the relationship".

It is just the way it is.

Chiquite, I know this is painful, but if you fought and won, then have some confidence that your friend will too. Best wishes to all!

She did win!!! Her case was reaffirmed by USCIS like mine was!!!

It is the CO who keeps holding them up!

Chiguita, I don't know why I didn't think of this before. Maybe one of these 2 could help. I don't have their phone numbers, but maybe you could find them so you can save time.

Dale Rumbarger

for

Julia Furuta-Toy

Director of Public and Diplomatic Liaison Visa Services

Washington, D.C. 20520

You can also write to:

Maura Harty

Assistant Secretary, Bureau of Consular Affairs

Washington, D.C. 20520

Thanks, I was thinking of giving those numbers to her last night. I will now send them to her in an e mail. I have the numbers if anyone else needs them.

[morocco4ever 63]

szsz, you posted your age difference earlier. Believe me, this WILL be an issue wuth Casa and you need to be prepared for it.

Thanks, Kiya. We were advised about age discrimination at the consulate long ago, so we've decided to face that and any other issues that may send up red flags head on in the I-130 before they raise it. I brought up the history of Khadijah and the Prophet (pbuh) on an earlier post; it is among the valid evidence that should be employed as religious precedent.

I'm going to leave this issue now as there some tension growing that I don't need, and there is little more that I can contribute further other than to repeat the advice to contact relevant congressional representatives and get a lawyer. I also posted an inquiry to solicit information from others

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17164

and can suggest this article that was contributed by a lawyer who posts on VJ

http://www.ilw.com/articles/2006,0323-ellis.shtm

Chiquite, I know this is painful, but if you fought and won, then have some confidence that your friend will too. Best wishes to all!

Thanks!

Let me advise you there is something that Marc wrote that is not true in Casa.

He wrote >>>>>>

The beneficiary interviews at a US Consulate and her case is not approved at the time of the interview. Rather, the interviewing officer first refuses the visa application under INA 221(g), and requests more information about the relationship.

After the petitioner and beneficiary provide the information, the consular officer decides that the petition should be returned to USCIS for review with the recommendation that it be revoked because it’s the officer’s view that a reasonable person would believe the relationship exists solely or primarily to convey an immigration benefit.

This does not happen in Casa...requests more information about the relationship. Instead the case is denied the same day of the interview and returned to USCIS without either the petitioner or the benefiary knowing why. Trust me this exactly what happens!!! We only find out much later when out senator or congressman make an inquiry for us. I know many many couples who have gone througth Casa and this is exactly what has happened to them.

I know that sooooooooo many ppl and even embassies say it doesnt happen, but I am here to tell everyone it indeed does happen. And for no other reason that the woman being older than the man. PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!

My husbands interview lasted 5 minutes, the CO reused to look at our proof, and returned our case to USCIS. I had taken great pains in creating a binder filled with pictures of us and family, copies of e mails, phone records and so much more. I had it all in plastic sleeves and had sections for each topic. I went to great length to make it so easy for the CO to just thumb through it for our proof of relationship. Guess what??? He refused to even look at it, yet we were denied "due to the validity of the relationship".

It is just the way it is.

Chiquite, I know this is painful, but if you fought and won, then have some confidence that your friend will too. Best wishes to all!

She did win!!! Her case was reaffirmed by USCIS like mine was!!!

It is the CO who keeps holding them up!

Chiguita, I don't know why I didn't think of this before. Maybe one of these 2 could help. I don't have their phone numbers, but maybe you could find them so you can save time.

Dale Rumbarger

for

Julia Furuta-Toy

Director of Public and Diplomatic Liaison Visa Services

Washington, D.C. 20520

You can also write to:

Maura Harty

Assistant Secretary, Bureau of Consular Affairs

Washington, D.C. 20520

Thanks, I was thinking of giving those numbers to her last night. I will now send them to her in an e mail. I have the numbers if anyone else needs them.

Yes, I do want them. At this point since our case is still back with the CIS it won't help me, but this time I plan to be more prepared when it gets back to the consulate. By the time I found these addresses it was already back to the CIS so it didn't help me, but I have held on because I don't believe it will go any easier the second time around.

Please keep us informed about what your friends do to resolve this issue, and how it turns out. I am praying for the best for her, and you as well.

[chiquita 0]

Yes, I do want them. At this point since our case is still back with the CIS it won't help me, but this time I plan to be more prepared when it gets back to the consulate. By the time I found these addresses it was already back to the CIS so it didn't help me, but I have held on because I don't believe it will go any easier the second time around.

Please keep us informed about what your friends do to resolve this issue, and how it turns out. I am praying for the best for her, and you as well.

Here they are:

OFFICE OF DIPLOMATIC AND PUBLIC LIAISON (VO/P)

Director Julie Furuta-Toy 202-663-3579

Public Inquiries Division Chief Karla Gentile 202-663-3623

Diplomatic Liaison Division Chief Dale Rumbarger 202-663-3211

Right after we were denied the K3 visa i wrote to Pres Bush (I wrote to everyone!!!) who wrote right back to me letting me know he was forwarding my letter to the DOS. It took DOS 6 months to write to me!!! So calling is much better! i wish I had known. Now, I have spoke to Mr. Rumbarger on the phone which was nice that he answered himslelf.

BTW, I also wrote to and sent e mail to Secretary Rice and to this day I have never heard from her or her office to this day.

[anxious 0]

Sorry this had to happen this way. I can't believe a consular would think allllllll this time and effort and years of communicating in a long distance relationship could be concieved as a hoax.

It frustrates us all to read this, but I still hope it works out someway for you

[Isabel 0]

You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar, chiquita. There's no need to insult people who have done nothing to hurt you. If you want to fight, fight to win, not to alienate.

Thanks for you concern, I really do appreciate it.

We do know why they were denied. The CO does not believe the husband loves the wife.

I am not trying to insult anyone. It gets frustrating when the same questions keep being asked. Did he say anything wrong? I can only guess...no. He said he loves his wife and wants to be with her. He was hoping the bus he was on would just crash and kill him when he was on his way home from the consulate. My husband feels he is in exile. For what? Because there is an age difference.

I am just looking for laws to help them. I know they exist because I have read them. I was hoping someone had done some research lately and my have had the links handy.

I think a lot of the questions being asked are purely innocent. I know I am not knowledgeable in this matter and maybe some others are not also. I think a lot of brainstorming as to why some people get denied their visas goes on here. I am pretty sure it's because they only want to help. We can only speculated as to what happen. I sincerely hope you find the information you are seeking. We got a 221g for lack of information and i know the feeling I felt was helplessness at that time.

Angel

Does any one know if the husband may have said something to trigger this CO's deision?

I feel for this person.

What does that matter? This case was reaffirimed by USCIS for DOS to take action on, yet they gave the infamous 221g letter with nothing marked and verbably saying she doesn't beleive he loves his wife after being married for more than 2 years. If that is not abuse of power, I sure don't know what is. The CO is to be VERY clear in why they will not issue a visa in the case of immigrants. Yet Casa has a history for not following the laws.

I don't understand why the ppl here don't get it...why does it have to be that the couple did something wrong??????????? I know in our case and most of the denied cases the couples did nothing wrong. The problem is the CO....age difference....denied!!! Period! Case sent back to USCIS.

This is the same problem I ran into last year when I first shared what happened to us. Everyone figured we did something wrong and those who were issued visas did the right thing. I guess most will never understand until it happens to them. I am so glad there is a group to go to for support, cuz it isn't here.

Nobody thought Goldenheart's fiancé said anything wrong either, but he did. Sometimes people say strange things under pressure or coercion. They really do ask a lot of questions and just wait for you to slip up on something then they eat you alive with it. It's unfortunate but true.

What did GH fiancee say that was wrong? Did i miss that part?

GH fiancee mentioned the religious ceremony the next day AFTER he was put in jail.

COERCION (forcing of somebody to do something: the use of force or threats to make somebody do something against his or her will) IS ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!

((((( Oh, honey))))), I'm 53 and my husband's 32, so if Casa discriminates on the basis of age, this will affect me too. Half of my family is married to immigrants, but none of us have the same circumstances or story to tell. I moved to Colorado to work for a relative's law firm and even she had to hire a lawyer to help with her husband's immigration issues!

We all care, or we wouldn't respond. The bottom line is, the process (using the word loosely) is bewildering to most of us. We're trying to be logical where logic doesn't count. You're probably beyond the realm of logic, so it all sounds like _______ to you. Please try to take it as it's meant, concern and caring for a process (using the word loosely) where we all feel powerless and somewhat abused but we don't have to feel alone.

I understand what you are saying. I never meant to imply that no one cared.

i am not beildered or beyond logic at all. That happened last year when we were first denied. I have since had our case reaffirnmed and feel very positive about it.

I am just trying to get the law and guidelines to help this couple. We are not powerless in this situation. At least i don't feel that way. I fought back and I won.

HI chiquita,

well I just read the messages here and hm what to say. Im sorry for what happened.

But to be realistic, were you in part at the interview? Or how can you tell what she said? How she reacted, if she might said something strange...that was a red flag? How can you know? Maybe she/he doesnt know it either. And if they already got denied another visa it is imaginable that the next interview would be harder as well...cos they need to convince the officer now that they indeed love each other etc.

Just to ask, why couldnt they repeal the first denial of the K3? That might have been a better choice instead of going further and trying to get the immigration visa? Sure finally they wanna get that but first off shoudlnt they try to get an approval for the K3?

Maybe im misinformed here, but that would be my try, cos for me it would be a red flag, why they just went on and went for the immigration visa.

Isabel

No I was not part of the interview. why would I need to be there to help this couple? Their case was reaffrimed by USCIS and sent back to DOS for action. That means issue the visa. But in this case the CO said she just cant believe the husband loves her. How does her believe system enter into this judgement? The relationship was proved and now USCIS was asking DOS to issue the visa. Plain and simple.

A k3 (non immigrant)visa is no longer valid once the CO denies it. It not our choice it is the law.

In oder to even file for a K3 one has to file for the I-130 Immigrant first. Once a K3 is denied the DOS and USCIS thereafter only uses the I-130 Immigrant to review.

I am hoping you understand now. All I was hoping to get was the law and guidelines for them.

Hi chiquit,

thats why I asked you . Well Im familir to the process of applying for a K3 since I do it myself, you know. I was just wondering why they cant repeal the K3 denial, thats all.

And as mentioned before, we can give you hints and a few thoughts but we are no legal attourneys. So obviously you know more about that law than we do, so why are you not just looking for professional help? That is my best advice.

Oh and I wanted to know if you were apart at that interview because you seemed to know every single thing and so on. But honestly You cant know everything that is a fact. What people say and what they do are two seperate things. That is a fact as well.

Good look

Isabel

[chiquita 0]

[quote name='Isabel' date='Jun 10 Well Im familir to the process of applying for a K3 since I do it myself, you know. I was just wondering why they cant repeal the K3 denial, thats all.

I suppose the USCIS could do what they want to do. I just know that the K3 is no longer valid once it is sent back to the states. I would think you would know this since you are familar with the K3.

And as mentioned before, we can give you hints and a few thoughts but we are no legal attourneys. So obviously you know more about that law than we do, so why are you not just looking for professional help? That is my best advice.

Becuase that takes so much time to get arranged. I was hoping to get some help for them, thats all.

Oh and I wanted to know if you were apart at that interview because you seemed to know every single thing and so on. But honestly You cant know everything that is a fact. What people say and what they do are two seperate things. That is a fact as well.

I know this couple very well. I know I wasn't there but I am sure there is no reason to deny with out reason. Least of all ....for personal belief