Arsenic levels too high in Kern Valley State Prison's drinking water

[mox 298]

I knew a young woman from church whose mother was sent to prison for check fraud. While the behavior is despicable, I don't think that takes away the love her daughter has for her, or the fact that her mother is still a human being and deserves to be treated as one.

Sorry, but there can be only extremes. Either she gets sparkling water served to her by young, nubile virgins, or she gets arsenic treated, feces laden water served by AIDS infested child molesters. And I'm sorry, but I don't want my tax dollars paying for young nubile virgins for prisoners.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I knew a young woman from church whose mother was sent to prison for check fraud. While the behavior is despicable, I don't think that takes away the love her daughter has for her, or the fact that her mother is still a human being and deserves to be treated as one.

Sorry, but there can be only extremes. Either she gets sparkling water served to her by young, nubile virgins, or she gets arsenic treated, feces laden water served by AIDS infested child molesters. And I'm sorry, but I don't want my tax dollars paying for young nubile virgins for prisoners.

Sheriff Arpaio approves your message.

[DeadPoolX 9]

Those poor criminals. Prisoners should have more rights. They should be given Perrier to drink.

I take it you've never had a friend or relative sentenced to prison?

you have?

and btw, a brother in law from my first marriage was a convicted felon.

Yes and I don't think of them any less for it. While I don't think prison should be a resort, the prisoners deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.

with the former bil, it wasn't really a surprise - auto insurance fraud. and i'll agree on the part of it not being a resort.

I knew a young woman from church whose mother was sent to prison for check fraud. While the behavior is despicable, I don't think that takes away the love her daughter has for her, or the fact that her mother is still a human being and deserves to be treated as one.

To be fair, Steven, the crimes most get sentenced to prison (not jail, which is something else entirely) for are of a violent and/or sexual nature. You'll be hard pressed to find very many people who really care about the "rights" of a murderer, child molester or rapist. Those people took away the rights of others when they committed their crimes. I won't argue in favor of someone who violated others simply because "they felt like it" or some other ridiculous reason.

[desert_fox 32]

Simple...take out the drinking fountains. I should be Governor.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

To be fair, Steven, the crimes most get sentenced to prison (not jail, which is something else entirely) for are of a violent and/or sexual nature. You'll be hard pressed to find very many people who really care about the "rights" of a murderer, child molester or rapist. Those people took away the rights of others when they committed their crimes. I won't argue in favor of someone who violated others simply because "they felt like it" or some other ridiculous reason.

Listen to the words of a former prison Warden:

Unfortunately, some prisons do not operate on the principles of dignity and respect. In those systems, officers think that by threatening new inmates, they will set a tone of superiority. They think that by treating inmates with disdain, they will maintain control. They are wrong. Contempt breeds contempt. Mistreated inmates react with hostility and resistance. What's more, this resentment against constant mistreatment continues past the release date when offenders are returned to the community and are expected to associate appropriately with the general public.

I met inmate John Smith the day after his transfer to Oak Park Heights. What he told me reaffirmed the importance of treating inmates with dignity and respect.

First, Smith thanked me. He said that after being processed in, escorted to his cell, and locked in for the night, he was surprised to hear one of the officers say, "Good night. We'll see you in the morning." This simple pleasantry, Smith said, had been absent from his previous prison experience, and helped ease the anxiety that exists with an institution transfer.

Then Smith told me about a previous transfer experience. In that instance, he was greeted with the following question: "Where would you like your body sent if you're murdered here?" It set the tone for the rest of his stay.

Prisons do not run safely through intimidation. They don't run safely through fear of automatic rifles or corporal punishment. Prisons don't run safely by accident; they run safely by design. And it all starts with how you treat people.

This is the most critical of all management principles in prison operations. It forms the foundation upon which every thing else is built. Security and control — given necessities in a prison environment — only become a reality when dignity and respect are inherent in the process. Excerpted from his book, "The Big House: Life Inside a Supermax Security Prison."

James H. Bruton has over thirty-four years of professional experience in corrections. He was the Warden at the Minnesota Correctional Facility - Oak Park Heights, the state's maximum security prison, from 1996 until his retirement in 2001. Prior to that, Mr. Bruton was the Deputy Commissioner of the Institutions Division in the Minnesota Department of Corrections. He has also served as the Superintendent of the Ramsey County Correctional Facility; the Executive Officer of Adult Release, directing Minnesota's prison release system; the Director of Internal Affairs at Oak Park Heights; and Vice-Chair of the Minnesota Corrections Board (State Parole Board).

Mr. Bruton has been an Adjunct faculty member for the University of St. Thomas' Criminal Justice Department since 1987, and is also an Adjunct faculty member at the University of Minnesota, Hamline University, Minneapolis Community and Technical College, and Century College. He has been a consultant with the National Institute of Corrections and an expert witness for the Ramsey County Attorney's Office. Mr. Bruton is the author of The Big House: Life Inside a Supermax Security Prison, published in 2004, and a contributor to Super Max Prisons: Beyond the Rock.

[mox 298]

What's interesting about this conversation is that we have a situation, we have people's gut reactions, and we have an end goal. And often our gut reactions do not serve the end goal. For example:

Situation: Prisoners.

Gut reaction: Let the bastards rot in their own filth.

End goal: Rehabilitation and productive re-integration into society.

The gut reaction does not serve the end goal. You do not get from there to here by mistreating these people and making them live in sub-human conditions, even if your gut reactions tell you to make them suffer mightily. And the end goal MUST be rehabilitation because most of them are going to wind up as your neighbors. Now, do you want that neighbor to have lived like an animal for the last 10 years, or do you want that neighbor to have lived for the last 10 years with some hope, dignity, and access to skills that make them a productive member of society? Which one of these scenarios serves the greater good?

It's important to look at the big picture when your knee-jerk reaction says otherwise. You may feel good in the short run about treating them like they probably deserve, but in the long run all it does is cause more collective harm than good.

[*Robert* 2]

Now isn't that a damn shame...

Poor fcuking crimnals!!!

[mox 298]

Now isn't that a damn shame...

Poor fcuking crimnals!!!

So you have a choice: provide them with dignity and respect, which leads to a higher rate of successful re-integration into the public and hence lower crime rates, or treat them with indignity, which leads to higher crime rates when they're released. You have just chosen the latter. How do you defend that decision?

It has absolutely nothing to do with what you believe they deserve, it has to do with what is better for society. Because for most inmates, it's not a question of if they return to society, it's when.

[*Robert* 2]

Now isn't that a damn shame...

Poor fcuking crimnals!!!

So you have a choice: provide them with dignity and respect, which leads to a higher rate of successful re-integration into the public and hence lower crime rates, or treat them with indignity, which leads to higher crime rates when they're released. You have just chosen the latter. How do you defend that decision?

It has absolutely nothing to do with what you believe they deserve, it has to do with what is better for society. Because for most inmates, it's not a question of if they return to society, it's when.

I realize you make a very good point, but I still think our entire criminal system needs a huge enima! When compared to other countries, our "cons" live in country clubs.

Maybe if our prisons were more like the ones overseas, it would be a much better detterent to keep people out of them in the first place. I guess that's how I defend my decision. They shouldn't be there in the first place.

[mox 298]

Maybe if our prisons were more like the ones overseas, it would be a much better detterent to keep people out of them in the first place. I guess that's how I defend my decision. They shouldn't be there in the first place.

Actually there's no correlation between crime rates and quality of prisons. Mexico, for example, has a very high rate of crime, and some of the worst prisons in the world. People just don't think about prison when they're committing a crime because they don't think they're going to get caught. Even many places such as Russia and Asia and even the U.S., prison is a badge of honor. The harsher the prison, the more respect you garner in the criminal world.

So again, it comes down to what's best for society, and that turns out to be treating inmates with respect and dignity. I'm not saying to turn it into a country club. But the best thing for society is to provide a basic level of dignity and respect. Otherwise we're just cutting off our collective noses to spite our face.

[*Robert* 2]

Maybe if our prisons were more like the ones overseas, it would be a much better detterent to keep people out of them in the first place. I guess that's how I defend my decision. They shouldn't be there in the first place.

Actually there's no correlation between crime rates and quality of prisons. Mexico, for example, has a very high rate of crime, and some of the worst prisons in the world. People just don't think about prison when they're committing a crime because they don't think they're going to get caught. Even many places such as Russia and Asia and even the U.S., prison is a badge of honor. The harsher the prison, the more respect you garner in the criminal world.

So again, it comes down to what's best for society, and that turns out to be treating inmates with respect and dignity. I'm not saying to turn it into a country club. But the best thing for society is to provide a basic level of dignity and respect. Otherwise we're just cutting off our collective noses to spite our face.

Again, you make an excellent point. I guess the true criminals won't change, no matter what. It's more about the ones that make a mistake in life, accidentally or not, and are willing to pay the time, clean up their act, and move on with their lives. Some people are genetically prone to a life as a criminal, and there's nothing to change it.

Good discussion brother mox!

[DeadPoolX 9]

To be fair, Steven, the crimes most get sentenced to prison (not jail, which is something else entirely) for are of a violent and/or sexual nature. You'll be hard pressed to find very many people who really care about the "rights" of a murderer, child molester or rapist. Those people took away the rights of others when they committed their crimes. I won't argue in favor of someone who violated others simply because "they felt like it" or some other ridiculous reason.

Listen to the words of a former prison Warden:

Unfortunately, some prisons do not operate on the principles of dignity and respect. In those systems, officers think that by threatening new inmates, they will set a tone of superiority. They think that by treating inmates with disdain, they will maintain control. They are wrong. Contempt breeds contempt. Mistreated inmates react with hostility and resistance. What's more, this resentment against constant mistreatment continues past the release date when offenders are returned to the community and are expected to associate appropriately with the general public.

I met inmate John Smith the day after his transfer to Oak Park Heights. What he told me reaffirmed the importance of treating inmates with dignity and respect.

First, Smith thanked me. He said that after being processed in, escorted to his cell, and locked in for the night, he was surprised to hear one of the officers say, "Good night. We'll see you in the morning." This simple pleasantry, Smith said, had been absent from his previous prison experience, and helped ease the anxiety that exists with an institution transfer.

Then Smith told me about a previous transfer experience. In that instance, he was greeted with the following question: "Where would you like your body sent if you're murdered here?" It set the tone for the rest of his stay.

Prisons do not run safely through intimidation. They don't run safely through fear of automatic rifles or corporal punishment. Prisons don't run safely by accident; they run safely by design. And it all starts with how you treat people.

This is the most critical of all management principles in prison operations. It forms the foundation upon which every thing else is built. Security and control — given necessities in a prison environment — only become a reality when dignity and respect are inherent in the process. Excerpted from his book, "The Big House: Life Inside a Supermax Security Prison."

James H. Bruton has over thirty-four years of professional experience in corrections. He was the Warden at the Minnesota Correctional Facility - Oak Park Heights, the state's maximum security prison, from 1996 until his retirement in 2001. Prior to that, Mr. Bruton was the Deputy Commissioner of the Institutions Division in the Minnesota Department of Corrections. He has also served as the Superintendent of the Ramsey County Correctional Facility; the Executive Officer of Adult Release, directing Minnesota's prison release system; the Director of Internal Affairs at Oak Park Heights; and Vice-Chair of the Minnesota Corrections Board (State Parole Board).

Mr. Bruton has been an Adjunct faculty member for the University of St. Thomas' Criminal Justice Department since 1987, and is also an Adjunct faculty member at the University of Minnesota, Hamline University, Minneapolis Community and Technical College, and Century College. He has been a consultant with the National Institute of Corrections and an expert witness for the Ramsey County Attorney's Office. Mr. Bruton is the author of The Big House: Life Inside a Supermax Security Prison, published in 2004, and a contributor to Super Max Prisons: Beyond the Rock.

That's great, Steven. But those are examples from two sources out of the entire prison system. I'm sure some read like the article above does, but the majority do not. I've known numerous prison guards and been in-touch with many within the criminal justice system. It's not at all unusual to see guards beaten or killed by inmates. It's amazing what some criminals will do to escape and they don't give a damn who gets hurt in the process.

While I'd agree that purposefully abusing prisoners is unnecessary, there's often a fine line between allowing a few rights here and there versus giving criminals whatever they want. Government can't tell the difference, so it's usually one extreme or the other. If I had to choose a side, I'd be in the camp that says, "A prisoner gave up his rights when he committed a crime against someone. Their rights are whatever the prison dictates."

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Those poor criminals. Prisoners should have more rights. They should be given Perrier to drink.

I take it you've never had a friend or relative sentenced to prison?

I come from a long line of criminals and convicts. We love arsenic in our water. We're crazy like that.

Ah yes, because everything HAS to be an extreme, doesn't it?

Remember, There can be Only One.

Would that be You?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Those poor criminals. Prisoners should have more rights. They should be given Perrier to drink.

I take it you've never had a friend or relative sentenced to prison?

I come from a long line of criminals and convicts. We love arsenic in our water. We're crazy like that.

You crazy troll. That's what I like about you, Spooks.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Those poor criminals. Prisoners should have more rights. They should be given Perrier to drink.

I take it you've never had a friend or relative sentenced to prison?

I come from a long line of criminals and convicts. We love arsenic in our water. We're crazy like that.

You crazy troll. That's what I like about you, Spooks.