Israeli assault targets symbols of Hamas power

[chaishai 1]

You are talking about human lives here. Where is the victory in killing so many innocents? The lack of value of human life is just disgusting.

The victory is that you accomplish your objective....i.e. make the enemy stop launching rockets into Israel. Did you just fall off a turnip truck or something??

exactly - and i think its hilarious to say that israel does not value human life - are we suggesting that the opposing "government" ie HAMAS does?!

they are hard at work, ain't they?

I am just sick over the whole thing. I need to stay away from forums like this where people sit on their cushy desk chairs and babble on saying arent HAMAS lives equal to the life of an israeli. Um, no they are not. Their life isnt worth the baby toenail of an upstanding israelis life. One rocket hit two doors down from my brother in laws new house last night then as he moved into beer sheva today with my MIL and FIL and sat down to dinner to celebrate the fact that he is alive another rocket hit one block away from their place. Not to mention they use their own palestinian people as human shields. Dispicable.

EDITED TO MAKE SENSE.... im a little upset....

I'm sorry about your family. I hope they remain safe.

thanks palilover, yours too.

[Caladan 19]

I think the claim that it's just a religious thing and that Muslims just want to hate Jews is just wrong on the face of it; there are Jewish people and Muslims living in the U.S. without firing rockets into each other. Surely part of the problem is the difference in religions/cultures, but no one who wanted to be taken seriously would argue that the U.S. and Israel couldn't be allies because of the often troubled history of Christianity and Judaism, or that since there are hundreds of years of war (literally) between Protestants and Catholics, the only thing to do is nuke northern Ireland.

Politics matters. The rise of radical Islam in the past forty years matters. The end of colonialism post WW-II matters. The way I look at it is that we're paying for a mistake and there are no good solutions. It was a bad decision to decide by fiat that the land that belonged to one group of people should be given to another; but now that it's been done, reversing the decision would be worse. The whole problem makes me sad. Emotionally it's got to be like 9/11 every day, and I can't imagine that anyone is in a good position to think of a rational solution on either side.

[DeadPoolX 9]

I, too, think that many Palestinians believe that they are the rightful owners of the land they lived on for countless generations. I also think that a strong case could be made that there is a basis in reality for this belief. How do you determine whether someone "owns" their land?

In general, there are laws that specifically state who owns what piece of land. If I purchase some land (and build a home on it), I own paperwork which states I am the owner. The Palestinians had no such documents. They were there simply because they could be and that does not constitute land ownership.

Those are quite some absolutes there buddy which more than anything reek of personally biased opinion. That's taking antisemitism to a new level that I frankly don't think even exists unless of course you're in 1940 Germany and its wannabe philosophies of hate.

The only rationally despised perspectives for most of us takes the form of fanatacism, on either side. Obviously one side is much more known than the other. And those perspectives have names: Extreme Zionism and Extreme Islamism.

In between there can and likely (eventually) will be two independent states: Palestine and Israel.

You may believe what you wish, but history has clearly shown there has been -- and always will be -- severe hatred towards Jews. In response to all the ####### the Jews have taken over the last 2000 years or more, the Israelis have become militant. They will not allow such persecution to happen again and I agree with that.

I think the claim that it's just a religious thing and that Muslims just want to hate Jews is just wrong on the face of it; there are Jewish people and Muslims living in the U.S. without firing rockets into each other. Surely part of the problem is the difference in religions/cultures, but no one who wanted to be taken seriously would argue that the U.S. and Israel couldn't be allies because of the often troubled history of Christianity and Judaism, or that since there are hundreds of years of war (literally) between Protestants and Catholics, the only thing to do is nuke northern Ireland.

Politics matters. The rise of radical Islam in the past forty years matters. The end of colonialism post WW-II matters. The way I look at it is that we're paying for a mistake and there are no good solutions. It was a bad decision to decide by fiat that the land that belonged to one group of people should be given to another; but now that it's been done, reversing the decision would be worse. The whole problem makes me sad. Emotionally it's got to be like 9/11 every day, and I can't imagine that anyone is in a good position to think of a rational solution on either side.

Israel and the U.S. are allies for one very important reason: Israel is a westernized nation and can at least somewhat reliably be our eyes and ears in the Middle East. If they lacked such usefulness to the U.S., I doubt this country would care about them at all. Politics dictate who assists whom. This means that alliances can form if one country can benefit the other. If no such possibility exists then there will be no alliance.

[Caladan 19]

Absolutely. That's why no one would argue that religious conflicts between Jews and Christians would trump politics; it very clearly doesn't. All I'm saying is that I don't know if there's a solution here, but if there is one, it's not going to be ruled out because of "2000 years or more" of persecution of "Jews" (as opposed to the sovereignty of the modern Israeli state -- two different things), but will be grounded in political and economic reality now.

[doodlebugg 10]

In general, there are laws that specifically state who owns what piece of land. If I purchase some land (and build a home on it), I own paperwork which states I am the owner. The Palestinians had no such documents. They were there simply because they could be and that does not constitute land ownership.

The Palestinians did have such documents.

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/60years...7142130391.html

'They have a land called Palestine'

By Casey Kauffman in south Lebanon

Abu Mamun has lived in Ein el Hilweh refugee camp in Lebanon since he fled his

Palestinian village in 1948

The issue of land ownership endures as one of the most wrenching issues for Palestinians who left homes, livelihoods and land behind in 1948.

Al Jazeera's Casey Kauffman travelled to Ein el Hilweh refugee camp in the south of Lebanon where he met one Palestinian man for whom land is a matter of pride and dignity.

Abu Mamun escaped from his Palestinian village, once called Ras al Ahmar, in 1948. As he was waiting on the Lebanese border for the Arab Liberation Army to fight off the Jewish militias, he decided to go back under cover of night for his land ownership documents.

Abu Mamun still has his land

ownership documents

"The Israeli massacre in Safsaf was next to our town. We were scared and we ran away to Lebanon.

"We had nothing. I used to sneak back to my village at night to bring food and other things - like thieves in our homes stealing our own possessions.

"One night I brought all my documents. This is proof that I paid taxes and that the land is mine," he said.

Abu Mamun, who is now 90, has been in Lebanon ever since but has kept his documents and still has clear memories of where he used to live.

"I tell my grandkids they have land and a country called Palestine, so they know they have more than this refugee life here - where we do not have anything," he told Al Jazeera.

World's apart

Ein el Hilweh refugee camp is only 45km away from Abu Mamun's former home in Ras al Ahmar - which is now in Israel. But it is a world apart and one that he cannot return to.

"I always think about being back and farming on my own land in my own country. There is a big difference. I remember what it was like to not be in debt to somebody else," he says.

Leaving Abu Mamun behind in Lebanon, Al Jazeera travelled to Israel to search for his old village.

Saeed stands in the land that was

once Abu Mamun's

There we met Saeed, a 90-year-old Palestinian man who stayed behind in Israel. He used to live close to Abu Mamun's village and knows his whole family and where they used to farm in the Ghazal valley.

He takes us to Ras al Ahmar, which has now been renamed Karem Ben Zimra. Today a Jewish community lives there and there are few signs of the past.

The Ghazal valley where Abu Mamun used to farm is a few hundred metres down the hill from Karem Ben Zimra - but most of the olive trees are now neglected.

Saeed says: "The Ghazal valley is still the same. All the olive trees are here - but they use it as grazing land for their cows - not humans."

When he return to Abu Mamun in Lebanon, we show him pictures of the land he has not seen in 60 years.

"My feelings have changed," he says looking at the pictures. "Anyone who sees his land after all this time will feel different. I am glad I got the chance to see my home again. We used to have all this land - it was all ours."

Abu Mamun says that he could go back and live with the Arab Jews. He remembers how they lived together peacefully before 1948.

But he adds that he would not return home unless the Israelis have left. Until that happens, he will keep farming somebody else's 20-metre patch of land in South Lebanon.

[DeadPoolX 9]

Absolutely. That's why no one would argue that religious conflicts between Jews and Christians would trump politics; it very clearly doesn't. All I'm saying is that I don't know if there's a solution here, but if there is one, it's not going to be ruled out because of "2000 years or more" of persecution of "Jews" (as opposed to the sovereignty of the modern Israeli state -- two different things), but will be grounded in political and economic reality now.

You're missing the point. Part of the reason Israel exists is because of persecution towards Jews. The Israeli slogan is "Never Again!" The connection between religion -- and the horrendous attacks made on Jews within the last 2000 years -- is very evident. Whether or not that will be the deciding factor is unknown at this point, but Israel clearly exists due to past events taken against Jews all over the world.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I'm not sure I understand how the historical persecution of the jews and "religion" be the deciding factor on finding a solution to this problem.

How can the ideological rationale for the establishment of the state of Israel trump the day to day economic/political realities of living in that region?

I mean... its not too different to saying that because the USA was established via the rejection of British colonial rule, that the US should still hold a grudge against the UK for it. Clearly it doesn't - becase the political realities of the modern time supercede the original conditions.

[Caladan 19]

I'm not missing the point; I know the reasons for the creation of Israel. I'm disagreeing with you that the fact of persecution means that there aren't other things done (by all political actors involved) that have more impact on the situation.

Moreover, you're saying that it wasn't the Palestinians' land because they didn't have the deed to the property. But that fundamentally gets the picture wrong. It's not just about personal property. It's about political autonomy. I don't own any land here in Connecticut, but if New York City (with the agreement of the feds) declared that Connecticut was now an outer borough, and that they were going to settle people from Long Island in Connecticut (and anyone who could show ancestry in Long Island had the right to move in), and people in Connecticut had to surrender their driver's licenses since it wasn't really a state any more, but that they weren't eligible to get new ones, or to vote in elections, or have U.S. passports and I couldn't get to work because I didn't have the right papers to get the quarter-mile to the university, and I couldn't move to a nearby state.

Well, telling me that I didn't really own the land wouldn't be consolation, if you see what I mean.

[DeadPoolX 9]

I'm not sure I understand how the historical persecution of the jews and "religion" be the deciding factor on finding a solution to this problem.

How can the ideological rationale for the establishment of the state of Israel trump the day to day economic/political realities of living in that region?

I mean... its not too different to saying that because the USA was established via the rejection of British colonial rule, that the US should still hold a grudge against the UK for it. Clearly it doesn't - becase the political realities of the modern time supercede the original conditions.

Religion is a dominant force in the Middle East. Politics may be important, but the political decisions in that region are often colored by religion.

By the way... I don't know if you noticed, but I didn't state that religion itself was going to be the deciding factor. It may or may be a deciding factor and it will have some have influence.

I'm not missing the point; I know the reasons for the creation of Israel. I'm disagreeing with you that the fact of persecution means that there aren't other things done (by all political actors involved) that have more impact on the situation.

Moreover, you're saying that it wasn't the Palestinians' land because they didn't have the deed to the property. But that fundamentally gets the picture wrong. It's not just about personal property. It's about political autonomy. I don't own any land here in Connecticut, but if New York City (with the agreement of the feds) declared that Connecticut was now an outer borough, and that they were going to settle people from Long Island in Connecticut (and anyone who could show ancestry in Long Island had the right to move in), and people in Connecticut had to surrender their driver's licenses since it wasn't really a state any more, but that they weren't eligible to get new ones, or to vote in elections, or have U.S. passports and I couldn't get to work because I didn't have the right papers to get the quarter-mile to the university, and I couldn't move to a nearby state.

Well, telling me that I didn't really own the land wouldn't be consolation, if you see what I mean.

I wouldn't really care if you owned the land. If New York could enforce such a proclamation, I'd say that's fine. I think many here forget that nearly every country in the world was created by force.

Edited December 31, 2008 by DeadPoolX

[Chica Yeyé 41]

I am just sick over the whole thing. I need to stay away from forums like this where people sit on their cushy desk chairs and babble on saying arent HAMAS lives equal to the life of an israeli. Um, no they are not. Their life isnt worth the baby toenail of an upstanding israelis life. One rocket hit two doors down from my brother in laws new house last night then as he moved into beer sheva today with my MIL and FIL and sat down to dinner to celebrate the fact that he is alive another rocket hit one block away from their place. Not to mention they use their own palestinian people as human shields. Dispicable.

EDITED TO MAKE SENSE.... im a little upset....

Yes they are. All human life has equal value. Unless someone named You god while I wasn't reading.

Get upset all you like, that I can respect.

when you are a murderer, in my opinion, your worth becomes nil.

your opinion and mine are quite minuscule in the great scheme of things- again ,whether you/I like it or not.

I happen to believe ALL human life has equal value; and I also believe life begins at birth, not at conception.

If you feel better ranting about how Palestinians deserve to die horrible deaths because blah blah blah blah--- good for you: I am sure your god agrees...

Have a nice life.

[Nagishkaw 510]

Well, that settles it then.

[Chica Yeyé 41]

Well, that settles it then.

[Nagishkaw 510]

[mawilson 2,133]

Yes they are. All human life has equal value. Unless someone named You god while I wasn't reading.

Get upset all you like, that I can respect.

That's just nonsense.

A professor's life is worth more than a child molester's.

What if the professor is a child molester?

Still worth more than a dumbass molester.

According to who?

Me. Common sense. Education is worth something.

[Chica Yeyé 41]

Yes they are. All human life has equal value. Unless someone named You god while I wasn't reading.

Get upset all you like, that I can respect.

That's just nonsense.

A professor's life is worth more than a child molester's.

What if the professor is a child molester?

Still worth more than a dumbass molester.

According to who?

Me. Common sense. Education is worth something.

It is????????????