Israeli assault targets symbols of Hamas power

[Tahoma 2,292]

Or they could declare two separate nations- Israel and Palestine. No strings attached; no illegal settlements in Palestinian lands.

Israel is, more or less, a cover for what the Arab nations want. They use the Palestinians to do their dirty work and hide behind them as "victims of Israeli aggression." If fighting were to cease there still wouldn't be peace. The Palestinians (and other Arab countries) want the Israelis dead for one very important reason -- they are Jewish.

People all over the world haven't needed a better reason to kill. In fact, that's part of the reason so many -- both outside the Middle East and inside it -- despise Israel. They're Jews who defend themselves and fight for their people, instead of allowing themselves to be beaten or killed off by whatever power is in-charge at the moment.

I also find it amusing that so many believe if Israel was gone, the aggression the West feels from the Middle East would dissipate. Israel is a westernized nation. The Palestinians and other Arab nations there hate the West and everything it stands for today. If Israel were destroyed, the terrorist groups would simply find another outlet. I'd say North America and most of Europe would then be targeted (even more so than they are today). If anything, Israel provides a convenient buffer for the West. So long as it exists, their Middle Eastern aggressors will aim at them first.

hmmmm...out of curiosity...where does the expropriation of Palestinian property (since the 1940's) fit into your "they're Jews/domino effect" theory? Would you or your family be upset if your property was expropriated?

[DeadPoolX 9]

hmmmm...that would seem a somewhat tortured logic to the casual observer. Do you really believe that Americans (and most of the world) would not have called it terrorism if the Pentagon were the only target on that fateful day?

I don't really care what "most" Americans or people from foreign nations think or believe. I consider attacks against military targets to be fair game. It's fine if someone else doesn't agree with me. I'm not asking for others to agree or even understand.

hmmmm...out of curiosity...where does the expropriation of Palestinian property (since the 1940's) fit into your "they're Jews/domino effect" theory? Would you or your family be upset if your property was expropriated?

If my family and I were squatting and the rightful owner requested to reclaim their land, I would have little choice but to accept it. I may not be happy, but then again, I had no legal justification to be there in the first place.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Who considers their people more valuable? The numbers speak for themselves.

The most famous prisoner swap between Israel and the PLO was in May 1985. In exchange for three Israeli soldiers held by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), Israel released 1,150 Palestinian political prisoners.

In January 2004, in the largest prisoner exchange, Israel released a total of 436 prisoners including 400 Palestinians; 23 Lebanese; two Syrians; three Moroccans; three Sudanese; a Libyan; and a German Muslim. Israel also returned the remains of 59 Lebanese soldiers. Israel received the remains of three Israel soldiers and the release of Elhanan Tennenbaum who Hizballah claimed was an Israeli intelligence officer.

http://www.counterpunch.org/assad07142006.html

[Ban Hammer 13,275]

Who considers their people more valuable? The numbers speak for themselves.

The most famous prisoner swap between Israel and the PLO was in May 1985. In exchange for three Israeli soldiers held by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), Israel released 1,150 Palestinian political prisoners.

In January 2004, in the largest prisoner exchange, Israel released a total of 436 prisoners including 400 Palestinians; 23 Lebanese; two Syrians; three Moroccans; three Sudanese; a Libyan; and a German Muslim. Israel also returned the remains of 59 Lebanese soldiers. Israel received the remains of three Israel soldiers and the release of Elhanan Tennenbaum who Hizballah claimed was an Israeli intelligence officer.

http://www.counterpunch.org/assad07142006.html

first paragraph: that's a 1 to 383.3 ratio

second paragraph, discounting the dead: 1 to 436.

i'm starting to see why there's like a 350-1 death ratio when israel goes to war - the fatality rate has been preset by prisoner exchanges.

Edited December 31, 2008 by charles!

[doodlebugg 10]

You are talking about human lives here. Where is the victory in killing so many innocents? The lack of value of human life is just disgusting.

The victory is that you accomplish your objective....i.e. make the enemy stop launching rockets into Israel. Did you just fall off a turnip truck or something??

exactly - and i think its hilarious to say that israel does not value human life - are we suggesting that the opposing "government" ie HAMAS does?!

they are hard at work, ain't they?

I am just sick over the whole thing. I need to stay away from forums like this where people sit on their cushy desk chairs and babble on saying arent HAMAS lives equal to the life of an israeli. Um, no they are not. Their life isnt worth the baby toenail of an upstanding israelis life. One rocket hit two doors down from my brother in laws new house last night then as he moved into beer sheva today with my MIL and FIL and sat down to dinner to celebrate the fact that he is alive another rocket hit one block away from their place. Not to mention they use their own palestinian people as human shields. Dispicable.

EDITED TO MAKE SENSE.... im a little upset....

Could you please quote where someone was asking how many "HAMAS" lives are equal to the life of an Israeli?

I'll wait.

[doodlebugg 10]

I would not classify the 9/11 attacks as terrorism if it had been limited to the Pentagon. That was not the case (I wouldn't call the WTC towers in NY a military installation) so the label of terrorism fit.

Are you serious? Of course it was terrorism. They used CIVILIAN planes for God's sakes. Civilians who had nothing to do with the military were killed.

[Tahoma 2,292]

hmmmm...that would seem a somewhat tortured logic to the casual observer. Do you really believe that Americans (and most of the world) would not have called it terrorism if the Pentagon were the only target on that fateful day?

I don't really care what "most" Americans or people from foreign nations think or believe. I consider attacks against military targets to be fair game. It's fine if someone else doesn't agree with me. I'm not asking for others to agree or even understand.

hmmmm...out of curiosity...where does the expropriation of Palestinian property (since the 1940's) fit into your "they're Jews/domino effect" theory? Would you or your family be upset if your property was expropriated?

If my family and I were squatting and the rightful owner requested to reclaim their land, I would have little choice but to accept it. I may not be happy, but then again, I had no legal justification to be there in the first place.

> It is difficult for me to believe your take on the Pentagon attack...but I will accept it at face value.

> Do you think there are many Palestinians who believe they were rightful landowners who were forced off of their land at the barrel of a gun?

[Chica Yeyé 41]

I am just sick over the whole thing. I need to stay away from forums like this where people sit on their cushy desk chairs and babble on saying arent HAMAS lives equal to the life of an israeli. Um, no they are not. Their life isnt worth the baby toenail of an upstanding israelis life. One rocket hit two doors down from my brother in laws new house last night then as he moved into beer sheva today with my MIL and FIL and sat down to dinner to celebrate the fact that he is alive another rocket hit one block away from their place. Not to mention they use their own palestinian people as human shields. Dispicable.

EDITED TO MAKE SENSE.... im a little upset....

Yes they are. All human life has equal value. Unless someone named You god while I wasn't reading.

Get upset all you like, that I can respect.

[chaishai 1]

You are talking about human lives here. Where is the victory in killing so many innocents? The lack of value of human life is just disgusting.

The victory is that you accomplish your objective....i.e. make the enemy stop launching rockets into Israel. Did you just fall off a turnip truck or something??

exactly - and i think its hilarious to say that israel does not value human life - are we suggesting that the opposing "government" ie HAMAS does?!

they are hard at work, ain't they?

I am just sick over the whole thing. I need to stay away from forums like this where people sit on their cushy desk chairs and babble on saying arent HAMAS lives equal to the life of an israeli. Um, no they are not. Their life isnt worth the baby toenail of an upstanding israelis life. One rocket hit two doors down from my brother in laws new house last night then as he moved into beer sheva today with my MIL and FIL and sat down to dinner to celebrate the fact that he is alive another rocket hit one block away from their place. Not to mention they use their own palestinian people as human shields. Dispicable.

EDITED TO MAKE SENSE.... im a little upset....

Could you please quote where someone was asking how many "HAMAS" lives are equal to the life of an Israeli?

I'll wait.

im not going to scroll back to cut and paste while you "wait" i dont have time for that #######, you know it was stated what 300 palestinian lives, and how many israeli lives and why do people think israeli lives are worth more blah blah blah... of these 360+ people, ~300 of them are hamas. g-d help the ~60 innocent lives.

I am just sick over the whole thing. I need to stay away from forums like this where people sit on their cushy desk chairs and babble on saying arent HAMAS lives equal to the life of an israeli. Um, no they are not. Their life isnt worth the baby toenail of an upstanding israelis life. One rocket hit two doors down from my brother in laws new house last night then as he moved into beer sheva today with my MIL and FIL and sat down to dinner to celebrate the fact that he is alive another rocket hit one block away from their place. Not to mention they use their own palestinian people as human shields. Dispicable.

EDITED TO MAKE SENSE.... im a little upset....

Yes they are. All human life has equal value. Unless someone named You god while I wasn't reading.

Get upset all you like, that I can respect.

when you are a murderer, in my opinion, your worth becomes nil.

[DeadPoolX 9]

I would not classify the 9/11 attacks as terrorism if it had been limited to the Pentagon. That was not the case (I wouldn't call the WTC towers in NY a military installation) so the label of terrorism fit.

Are you serious? Of course it was terrorism. They used CIVILIAN planes for God's sakes. Civilians who had nothing to do with the military were killed.

The act of hijacking civilian airliners was indeed terrorism. However, attacking the Pentagon itself was not.

hmmmm...that would seem a somewhat tortured logic to the casual observer. Do you really believe that Americans (and most of the world) would not have called it terrorism if the Pentagon were the only target on that fateful day?

I don't really care what "most" Americans or people from foreign nations think or believe. I consider attacks against military targets to be fair game. It's fine if someone else doesn't agree with me. I'm not asking for others to agree or even understand.

hmmmm...out of curiosity...where does the expropriation of Palestinian property (since the 1940's) fit into your "they're Jews/domino effect" theory? Would you or your family be upset if your property was expropriated?

If my family and I were squatting and the rightful owner requested to reclaim their land, I would have little choice but to accept it. I may not be happy, but then again, I had no legal justification to be there in the first place.

> It is difficult for me to believe your take on the Pentagon attack...but I will accept it at face value.

> Do you think there are many Palestinians who believe they were rightful landowners who were forced off of their land at the barrel of a gun?

I'm sure there are many who do believe they are the rightful owners. Of course... people believe a lot of things. Whether or not this belief has any basis in reality is something else entirely.

[sereia 0]

Or they could declare two separate nations- Israel and Palestine. No strings attached; no illegal settlements in Palestinian lands.

i'm asking this seriously, for your serious thoughts on the subject:

Do you think a two-state solution can work? And if so, what happens to all the Palestinians (Christian and Muslim Arabs) living in Israel?

Just asking your thoughts, because i think about it sometimes... when i'm not thinking about other things.

What about the Muslim Indians who were moved to create Pakistan? And the Muslims who stayed behind in India afterward? This wouldn't be the first time this has happened (and I doubt the last) ........................

Edited December 31, 2008 by Sheherazade

[Tahoma 2,292]

I would not classify the 9/11 attacks as terrorism if it had been limited to the Pentagon. That was not the case (I wouldn't call the WTC towers in NY a military installation) so the label of terrorism fit.

Are you serious? Of course it was terrorism. They used CIVILIAN planes for God's sakes. Civilians who had nothing to do with the military were killed.

The act of hijacking civilian airliners was indeed terrorism. However, attacking the Pentagon itself was not.

hmmmm...that would seem a somewhat tortured logic to the casual observer. Do you really believe that Americans (and most of the world) would not have called it terrorism if the Pentagon were the only target on that fateful day?

I don't really care what "most" Americans or people from foreign nations think or believe. I consider attacks against military targets to be fair game. It's fine if someone else doesn't agree with me. I'm not asking for others to agree or even understand.

hmmmm...out of curiosity...where does the expropriation of Palestinian property (since the 1940's) fit into your "they're Jews/domino effect" theory? Would you or your family be upset if your property was expropriated?

If my family and I were squatting and the rightful owner requested to reclaim their land, I would have little choice but to accept it. I may not be happy, but then again, I had no legal justification to be there in the first place.

> It is difficult for me to believe your take on the Pentagon attack...but I will accept it at face value.

> Do you think there are many Palestinians who believe they were rightful landowners who were forced off of their land at the barrel of a gun?

I'm sure there are many who do believe they are the rightful owners. Of course... people believe a lot of things. Whether or not this belief has any basis in reality is something else entirely.

I, too, think that many Palestinians believe that they are the rightful owners of the land they lived on for countless generations. I also think that a strong case could be made that there is a basis in reality for this belief. How do you determine whether someone "owns" their land?

[doodlebugg 10]

I would not classify the 9/11 attacks as terrorism if it had been limited to the Pentagon. That was not the case (I wouldn't call the WTC towers in NY a military installation) so the label of terrorism fit.

Are you serious? Of course it was terrorism. They used CIVILIAN planes for God's sakes. Civilians who had nothing to do with the military were killed.

The act of hijacking civilian airliners was indeed terrorism. However, attacking the Pentagon itself was not.

I know this is wicked OT but I can't grasp this concept. How do you take out the innocent civilians on the plane part of the act? They were inside the plane when it hit the Pentagon, right? I mean ok I see your point if I really squint hard enough to get a headache......that if these people took a fighter jet and hit the Pentagon then it would not be a terrorist act but seriously that's a stretch. Plus what of all the civilians in the Pentagon at the time? Maybe I'm just not up on all of the technical definitions of the rules of war and what constitutes terrorism. It's hard to define especially when no one seems to follow the Geneva Convention anymore.

[AlHayatZween 2]

What about the Muslim Indians who were moved to create Pakistan? And the Muslims who stayed behind in India afterward? This wouldn't be the first time this has happened (and I doubt the last) ........................

Yes, yes... was thinking about that, too...

It's a lot to think about!

[AlHayatZween 2]

> Do you think there are many Palestinians who believe they were rightful landowners who were forced off of their land at the barrel of a gun?

Yes, absolutely... maybe not always with a gun pointed at them, but certainly many feel they were ousted from their land.