what the HECK is proof of ongoing relationship?!

[gyi 1]

Some good questions about this proof stuff, When you applied for the Visa you had to follow strict legal requirements, which you met if your I-797 was approved, now enter the Consulates which have the same strict legal requirements for a denial but resort to a subjective standard ( how many visits, phone calls, one can get the idea) in many of these denials.

A very good point in that the uscis is not the ultimate deciding factor. Although, the visa is only applied for after the uscis approves the I-129f petition (I-797/NOA2). What you have with your NOA2 is merely an approved petition which then enables your fiance to apply for the visa.

Subjective standard is a very good way to explain how each Embassy decides whether or not a visa is approved. Those higher fraud posts will most likely look for any red flags they can find to dissprove the relationship (age difference, recent divorce, short courtship...etc, etc) ...and then make you jump through hoops. We can blame the CO, the Country, the system, even people on power trips... but ultimately it is those who have abused the system that make it so much harder for the rest of us.

Therefore, it's very important to provide any and all evidence of a bonafide relationship that you can, especially when dealing with these places. If your relationship is true and you are prepared and diligent in your efforts it's very likely you will succeed in bringing your loved one here...eventually.

First I would like to thank you for your interest in this matter, but a I-797 approval is Prima facie evidence that all is legal, if the Consulate finds something after this fact it may issue a denial, something illegal not subjective. Edited December 30, 2008 by gyi

[Dakine 26]

I am getting nervous reading this. My fiance is 19 and from the Philippines and I am 29 and am from the USA. I have a lot of phone records but they are to her cell phone. Can she bring in the phone to prove it is her number? Should I be worried? What is the best way for her to pass the interview? We are planning to be together next year and will be devastated if she isn't approved.

Can't take cellphones in USEM. No need worry as long as you have the call records. Who else would you be calling almost daily in the Philippines?

Best way to help her to pass is for you to make more than one trip and to attend the interview with her.

I've been banging around immigration forums for quite awhile and have seen VERY few denials if the fiance attend the interview. Seen LOTS of fiances kicking themselves in the butte because they didn't attend the interview and their fiancees were denied. Me included!

Edited December 30, 2008 by Haole

[Conan 0]

I am getting nervous reading this. My fiance is 19 and from the Philippines and I am 29 and am from the USA. I have a lot of phone records but they are to her cell phone. Can she bring in the phone to prove it is her number? Should I be worried? What is the best way for her to pass the interview? We are planning to be together next year and will be devastated if she isn't approved.

Can't take cellphones in USEM. No need worry as long as you have the call records. Who else would you be calling almost daily in the Philippines?

Best way to help her to pass is for you to make more than one trip and to attend the interview with her.

I've been banging around immigration forums for quite awhile and have seen VERY few denials if the fiance attend the interview. Seen LOTS of fiances kicking themselves in the butte because they didn't attend the interview and their fiancees were denied. Me included!

Thank you for the response. You were denied? Did they say why? What did you do to get approved and how long did it take?

[msu17 0]

Some good questions about this proof stuff, When you applied for the Visa you had to follow strict legal requirements, which you met if your I-797 was approved, now enter the Consulates which have the same strict legal requirements for a denial but resort to a subjective standard ( how many visits, phone calls, one can get the idea) in many of these denials.

A very good point in that the uscis is not the ultimate deciding factor. Although, the visa is only applied for after the uscis approves the I-129f petition (I-797/NOA2). What you have with your NOA2 is merely an approved petition which then enables your fiance to apply for the visa.

Subjective standard is a very good way to explain how each Embassy decides whether or not a visa is approved. Those higher fraud posts will most likely look for any red flags they can find to dissprove the relationship (age difference, recent divorce, short courtship...etc, etc) ...and then make you jump through hoops. We can blame the CO, the Country, the system, even people on power trips... but ultimately it is those who have abused the system that make it so much harder for the rest of us.

Therefore, it's very important to provide any and all evidence of a bonafide relationship that you can, especially when dealing with these places. If your relationship is true and you are prepared and diligent in your efforts it's very likely you will succeed in bringing your loved one here...eventually.

First I would like to thank you for your interest in this matter, but a I-797 approval is Prima facie evidence that all is legal, if the Consulate finds something after this fact it may issue a denial, something illegal not subjective.

True, though the USCIS's job is jsut to determine if a couple has met in the last 2 years and meets the other requirements. The consulate must determine the validity of the relationship. That job is a much more subjective business than merely deciding if 2 people have met w/in 2 years and can marry. We all know that the consulates SHOULD have the same standard between countries and for each petitioner, but thats not reality. We also know they shouldn't deny based on what's already been approved by USCIS, but that doesn't stop them requiring more evidence of a relationship. The whole process sucks and we just need to play the game. If a person is legit, hopefully they'll succeed and if they aren't hopefully they will get denied.

Edited December 30, 2008 by msu17

[KimandRuss 0]

Very well stated MSU.... and extremely important to note when going through GUZ and other high fraud posts.

[Paris Desire 0]

Please, lets try not to stereotype.

There are plenty of very real and very loving relationships even from higher fraud posts.

Talking of stereotypes, I've seen plenty Rednecks since I've been here

What's a redneck

here ya go examples of rednecks:

[

rednecks are beer drinking hunters who watch nascar (car races) and love country music or rock

they yell YEEEEEHA a lot and have mullet haircuts..(not all beer drinking hunters or nascar watchers are rednecks but most are:))

now rednecks come from all regions and countries, NEVER hold a cheap beer or a gun near them as they will start to drool

OMG!!!!!!!!

[Dakine 26]

I am getting nervous reading this. My fiance is 19 and from the Philippines and I am 29 and am from the USA. I have a lot of phone records but they are to her cell phone. Can she bring in the phone to prove it is her number? Should I be worried? What is the best way for her to pass the interview? We are planning to be together next year and will be devastated if she isn't approved.

Can't take cellphones in USEM. No need worry as long as you have the call records. Who else would you be calling almost daily in the Philippines?

Best way to help her to pass is for you to make more than one trip and to attend the interview with her.

I've been banging around immigration forums for quite awhile and have seen VERY few denials if the fiance attend the interview. Seen LOTS of fiances kicking themselves in the butte because they didn't attend the interview and their fiancees were denied. Me included!

Thank you for the response. You were denied? Did they say why? What did you do to get approved and how long did it take?

We were denied due to lack of a bona fide relationship. My senator founf out it was due to not enough pictures of me and her family.

Never was approved. Sent back to USCIS and I cancelled it.

[TBoneTX 44,788]

Best way to help her to pass is for you to make more than one trip and to attend the interview with her.

I've been banging around immigration forums for quite awhile and have seen VERY few denials if the fiance attend the interview. Seen LOTS of fiances kicking themselves in the butt because they didn't attend the interview and their fiancees were denied. Me included!

SI, MAN.

[TBoneTX 44,788]

Edit not allowed, for some reason (the Guayaquil consulate must be behind it). Wanted to recommend reading my signature below, from 4-29-08 on, si man.

[pushbrk 12,606]

Some good questions about this proof stuff, When you applied for the Visa you had to follow strict legal requirements, which you met if your I-797 was approved, now enter the Consulates which have the same strict legal requirements for a denial but resort to a subjective standard ( how many visits, phone calls, one can get the idea) in many of these denials.

A very good point in that the uscis is not the ultimate deciding factor. Although, the visa is only applied for after the uscis approves the I-129f petition (I-797/NOA2). What you have with your NOA2 is merely an approved petition which then enables your fiance to apply for the visa.

Subjective standard is a very good way to explain how each Embassy decides whether or not a visa is approved. Those higher fraud posts will most likely look for any red flags they can find to dissprove the relationship (age difference, recent divorce, short courtship...etc, etc) ...and then make you jump through hoops. We can blame the CO, the Country, the system, even people on power trips... but ultimately it is those who have abused the system that make it so much harder for the rest of us.

Therefore, it's very important to provide any and all evidence of a bonafide relationship that you can, especially when dealing with these places. If your relationship is true and you are prepared and diligent in your efforts it's very likely you will succeed in bringing your loved one here...eventually.

First I would like to thank you for your interest in this matter, but a I-797 approval is Prima facie evidence that all is legal, if the Consulate finds something after this fact it may issue a denial, something illegal not subjective.

The approval means the requirements have been met that qualify the beneficiary to "apply for" not "to receive" a visa. Petition approval is pretty much an objective process. Approving a visa application is indeed highly subjective. Consular officers do have additional information as a result of the information submitted by the visa applicant. In Guangzhou, that includes the very detailed GIV-24 form, the visa applications themselves and the answers to interview questions. As such, it's wise to prepare accordingly.

[gyi 1]

Some good questions about this proof stuff, When you applied for the Visa you had to follow strict legal requirements, which you met if your I-797 was approved, now enter the Consulates which have the same strict legal requirements for a denial but resort to a subjective standard ( how many visits, phone calls, one can get the idea) in many of these denials.

A very good point in that the uscis is not the ultimate deciding factor. Although, the visa is only applied for after the uscis approves the I-129f petition (I-797/NOA2). What you have with your NOA2 is merely an approved petition which then enables your fiance to apply for the visa.

Subjective standard is a very good way to explain how each Embassy decides whether or not a visa is approved. Those higher fraud posts will most likely look for any red flags they can find to dissprove the relationship (age difference, recent divorce, short courtship...etc, etc) ...and then make you jump through hoops. We can blame the CO, the Country, the system, even people on power trips... but ultimately it is those who have abused the system that make it so much harder for the rest of us.

Therefore, it's very important to provide any and all evidence of a bonafide relationship that you can, especially when dealing with these places. If your relationship is true and you are prepared and diligent in your efforts it's very likely you will succeed in bringing your loved one here...eventually.

First I would like to thank you for your interest in this matter, but a I-797 approval is Prima facie evidence that all is legal, if the Consulate finds something after this fact it may issue a denial, something illegal not subjective.

The approval means the requirements have been met that qualify the beneficiary to "apply for" not "to receive" a visa. Petition approval is pretty much an objective process. Approving a visa application is indeed highly subjective. Consular officers do have additional information as a result of the information submitted by the visa applicant. In Guangzhou, that includes the very detailed GIV-24 form, the visa applications themselves and the answers to interview questions. As such, it's wise to prepare accordingly.

Well tell me is someone blowing wind with the following?

“6. In adjudicating visa cases involving petitions, posts should bear in mind three important factors: A. the consular officer's role in the petition process is to determine if there is substantial evidence relevant to petition validity not previously considered by DHS, and not to merely readjudicate the petition; B. the memo supporting the petition return must clearly show the factual and concrete reasons for recommending revocation (observations made by the consular officer cannot be conclusive, speculative, equivocal or irrelevant) and; C. consular officers must provide to the applicant in writing as full an explanation as possible of the legal and factual basis for the visa denial and petition return. Post must maintain a copy of the returned petition, other evidence relevant to the case, and a copy of the written notification of the denial.

No readjudication of petitions

7. In general, an approved petition will be considered by consular officers as prima facie evidence that the requirements for classification - which are examined in the petition process - have been met. Where Congress has placed responsibility and authority with DHS to determine whether the requirements for status which are examined in the petition process have been met, consular officers do not have the authority to question the approval of petitions without specific evidence, generally unavailable to DHS at the time of petition approval, that the beneficiary may not be entitled to status (see 9 FAM 41.53, Note 2, 41.54 Note 3.2-2, 41.55 Note 8, 41.56 Note 10, 41.57 Note 6, and 42.43 Note 2) due to fraud, changes in circumstances or clear error on the part of DHS in approving the petition. Conoffs should not assume that a petition should be revoked simply because they would have reached a different decision if adjudicating the petition

Edited December 31, 2008 by gyi

[pushbrk 12,606]

Some good questions about this proof stuff, When you applied for the Visa you had to follow strict legal requirements, which you met if your I-797 was approved, now enter the Consulates which have the same strict legal requirements for a denial but resort to a subjective standard ( how many visits, phone calls, one can get the idea) in many of these denials.

A very good point in that the uscis is not the ultimate deciding factor. Although, the visa is only applied for after the uscis approves the I-129f petition (I-797/NOA2). What you have with your NOA2 is merely an approved petition which then enables your fiance to apply for the visa.

Subjective standard is a very good way to explain how each Embassy decides whether or not a visa is approved. Those higher fraud posts will most likely look for any red flags they can find to dissprove the relationship (age difference, recent divorce, short courtship...etc, etc) ...and then make you jump through hoops. We can blame the CO, the Country, the system, even people on power trips... but ultimately it is those who have abused the system that make it so much harder for the rest of us.

Therefore, it's very important to provide any and all evidence of a bonafide relationship that you can, especially when dealing with these places. If your relationship is true and you are prepared and diligent in your efforts it's very likely you will succeed in bringing your loved one here...eventually.

First I would like to thank you for your interest in this matter, but a I-797 approval is Prima facie evidence that all is legal, if the Consulate finds something after this fact it may issue a denial, something illegal not subjective.

The approval means the requirements have been met that qualify the beneficiary to "apply for" not "to receive" a visa. Petition approval is pretty much an objective process. Approving a visa application is indeed highly subjective. Consular officers do have additional information as a result of the information submitted by the visa applicant. In Guangzhou, that includes the very detailed GIV-24 form, the visa applications themselves and the answers to interview questions. As such, it's wise to prepare accordingly.

Well tell me is someone blowing wind with the following?

“6. In adjudicating visa cases involving petitions, posts should bear in mind three important factors: A. the consular officer's role in the petition process is to determine if there is substantial evidence relevant to petition validity not previously considered by DHS, and not to merely readjudicate the petition; B. the memo supporting the petition return must clearly show the factual and concrete reasons for recommending revocation (observations made by the consular officer cannot be conclusive, speculative, equivocal or irrelevant) and; C. consular officers must provide to the applicant in writing as full an explanation as possible of the legal and factual basis for the visa denial and petition return. Post must maintain a copy of the returned petition, other evidence relevant to the case, and a copy of the written notification of the denial.

No readjudication of petitions

7. In general, an approved petition will be considered by consular officers as prima facie evidence that the requirements for classification - which are examined in the petition process - have been met. Where Congress has placed responsibility and authority with DHS to determine whether the requirements for status which are examined in the petition process have been met, consular officers do not have the authority to question the approval of petitions without specific evidence, generally unavailable to DHS at the time of petition approval, that the beneficiary may not be entitled to status (see 9 FAM 41.53, Note 2, 41.54 Note 3.2-2, 41.55 Note 8, 41.56 Note 10, 41.57 Note 6, and 42.43 Note 2) due to fraud, changes in circumstances or clear error on the part of DHS in approving the petition. Conoffs should not assume that a petition should be revoked simply because they would have reached a different decision if adjudicating the petition

That's a fair question but words mean what they mean, not what we wish them to mean. Consular officers have concrete information no provided with the petition. An example would be something we've seen recently. The petition was filed shortly after the couple was together in person but the interview didn't happen until 17 months later. The couple had not seen each other during the preceding 17 months and had little other evidence of bona fide ongoing relationship. Additionally, the visa applicant was unable to answer some basic questions one would expect a fiancee to know about her fiance if the relationship was bona fide. USCIS did not have access to any of that information when the petition was adjudicated.

7. above mentions "the requirements for classification - which are examined in the petition process - have been met. " "Requirements for classification" in the case of a K1 case, simply refers to having met a set of basic requirements like both being free to marry, the petitioner has status as a USC, there are no AWA convictions or terrorist concerns and they've met in person within two years. Judging the bona fides is still up to the Consular officer.

Further subjectivity enters the scene as the Consular officer makes decisions about questions and follow-up questions based on their judgment of what they see and the answers they are given. Most visa denials occur because of poor interview preparation or actual concrete evidence relationships don't meet the reasonable person standard for concluding the relationship is bona fide.

The best way to assure success is to actually have and live a bona fide relationship and for the beneficiary to be fully informed and prepared for the interview.

[J & Q 0]

I have been reading posts lately from people getting denied after multiple trips to see their fiancee, traveling all over with them, with plane tickets, thousands of emails, phone bills...if that isn't enough - WHAT IS GOOD ENOUGH PROOF OF ONGOING RELATIONSHIP?? Is there some "secret" proof we are all missing that carries more weight with the uscis/consulate??????? I, for one, am extremely confused!

Further, if you are living in the country of your fiancee, how do you have proof of ongoing relationship? You won't have emails and phone bills - other than photos, which obviously, the consulate doesn't give much weight to, what other forms of proof are there? What am I missing?

Confused

Bug

Honesty is your best chance. Be honest and yourself and with a lot of patience you both will prevail.

[pushbrk 12,606]

I have been reading posts lately from people getting denied after multiple trips to see their fiancee, traveling all over with them, with plane tickets, thousands of emails, phone bills...if that isn't enough - WHAT IS GOOD ENOUGH PROOF OF ONGOING RELATIONSHIP?? Is there some "secret" proof we are all missing that carries more weight with the uscis/consulate??????? I, for one, am extremely confused!

Further, if you are living in the country of your fiancee, how do you have proof of ongoing relationship? You won't have emails and phone bills - other than photos, which obviously, the consulate doesn't give much weight to, what other forms of proof are there? What am I missing?

Confused

Bug

Honesty is your best chance. Be honest and yourself and with a lot of patience you both will prevail.

I've seen a lot of cases denied for lack of a bona fide relationship. There is no magic formula of "evidence" to supply that will assure success. The best formula is to first have a bona fide relationship and then conduct your lives that way. While doing so, collect items of evidence that show you're living like people in a bona fide relationship. What tends to be problematic is that couples get married or engaged, then put their relationship building on hold until they are reunited. The foreign spouse or fiance(e) then attends the interview unprepared. They don't know what a spouse or fiance(e) in a bona fide relationship would generally know about their spouse or fiance(e). Many haven't visited again after the engagement or marriage. Success in the spouse or fiance(e) visa process is not merely a matter of a checklist of requirements to meet and forms to submit. Sure, you have to do that, but you also have to prepare by living bona fide relationships. If the visa were assured based on petition approval, it would be called "registration" not "application" and "interview".

Edited January 1, 2009 by pushbrk

[tommys_girl 0]

I am getting nervous reading this. My fiance is 19 and from the Philippines and I am 29 and am from the USA. I have a lot of phone records but they are to her cell phone. Can she bring in the phone to prove it is her number? Should I be worried? What is the best way for her to pass the interview? We are planning to be together next year and will be devastated if she isn't approved.

hey not all rednecks are the same, im marrying a guy from the south, yea he is a redneck but he doesnt go around yelling yehaaawwww or have a mullat haircut or watch nascar and guzzle beer. keep your mind on whats important and dont judge other people. otherwise your going to have a very sad life !!!!!!