American men meeting Russian women in ........America?????

[slim 1,523]

What's the difference between Putin blaming Chechens and Bush blaming "the terrorists." Sounds kind of vague for someone who is supposedly "well informed" right?

[K1researcher 0]

When university's here pressure students and teachers to vote for a certain president

wow you think they dont? almost every non-military school I have associated with preached/begged for all students to vote Obama (in most cases generically democrat)

and I believe that the US elections are exactly as rigged as the Russian ones. The only difference is that Americans delude themselves into thinking otherwise. I know its all fixed and the entire government is controlled by the wealthy elite. I just accept it and move on. But i have no confusion that we are somehow better in this respect than Russia. Liberalism is taught from kindergarten on throughout the majority of the nation, which is frankly worse than the manipulation done in Russia.

oh and good point Slim ;-) there is always someone to blame. Chechens are russia's generic terrorists. But even in America we aren't even allowed to bad mouth or hate terrorists anymore due to thought police (aka political correctness)

Edited February 4, 2009 by K1researcher

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

When university's here pressure students and teachers to vote for a certain president

wow you think they dont? almost every non-military school I have associated with preached/begged for all students to vote Obama (in most cases generically democrat)

and I believe that the US elections are exactly as rigged as the Russian ones. The only difference is that Americans delude themselves into thinking otherwise. I know its all fixed and the entire government is controlled by the wealthy elite. I just accept it and move on. But i have no confusion that we are somehow better in this respect than Russia. Liberalism is taught from kindergarten on throughout the majority of the nation, which is frankly worse than the manipulation done in Russia.

oh and good point Slim ;-) there is always someone to blame. Chechens are russia's generic terrorists. But even in America we aren't even allowed to bad mouth or hate terrorists anymore due to thought police (aka political correctness)

Well you passed the test K1researcher. You have managed to dodge my questions post after post. Good answer on the murdered journalist...16 of them btw in the last ten years. You managed to dodge the question about the Kremlin owning all the major media outlets, and you dodged the OSCE monitor question.

Way to go...you passed the Putin test.

[1HappyGuy 45]

You won't be convincing K1Researcher that Putin isn't good for Russia, that is obvious. But I know that we refer to him as Tsar Putin in our house and we heard about the issuing of Russian passports in Ukraine several months ago. Our source is my brother in law who lives near Odessa. He just moved to Ukraine last year from Russia. While in Russia he said people openly talked about when they get Ukraine back. Of course you can't verify that, because it isn't discussed in any media because of the controls established by Putin. People like K1Researcher will continue to put their head in the sand everytime a journalist is killed who happened to be writing in opposition to the government or Putin. Yeah, it was just some fanatic going off on this journalist to protect Putin. If you believe that, have I got a bridge to sell you.

The situation in Georgia was a test run for Ukraine. Ukraine's only hope is to establish a strong democracy and even stronger capitalistic economy. Of course, joining NATO would help a lot, but they need to jump through a lot of hopes for that.

[mox 298]

But I know that we refer to him as Tsar Putin in our house...

I'm always curious when I hear this phrase, "Tsar Putin." I think Putin has been largely a destructive force for Russia, but most of his destruction won't be felt for years. However, a Tsardom is the very last thing Putin is looking to put back in place.

[Brad and Vika 129]

I am also no fan of Putin or Lukashenko, and enjoy living in a country where the constitution isn't altered every time a strong President sneezes (although we sleepily ignore the erosion of it). I like that our economy isn't based on one commodity, and that my government cannot (usually) go around the law WITHOUT BEHIND CALLED OUT PUBLICLY. All governments misbehave, it is how we handle the selling of Senate seats etc. that is the difference.

There are some scary similarities though, like our penchant to spend millions defending some vague interests with our military from a country that never attacked us - or manufacturing a wrong to allow unilateral action to be justified. Based on the government controls I see our new President imposing just due to a financial crisis, I am afraid of what we would allow if there were a real problem like a shortage of food.

[mox 298]

I am also no fan of Putin or Lukashenko, and enjoy living in a country where the constitution isn't altered every time a strong President sneezes (although we sleepily ignore the erosion of it). I like that our economy isn't based on one commodity, and that my government cannot (usually) go around the law WITHOUT BEHIND CALLED OUT PUBLICLY. All governments misbehave, it is how we handle the selling of Senate seats etc. that is the difference.

There are some scary similarities though, like our penchant to spend millions defending some vague interests with our military from a country that never attacked us - or manufacturing a wrong to allow unilateral action to be justified. Based on the government controls I see our new President imposing just due to a financial crisis, I am afraid of what we would allow if there were a real problem like a shortage of food.

Could not have said it better, my friend.

[Brad and Vika 129]

I am also no fan of Putin or Lukashenko, and enjoy living in a country where the constitution isn't altered every time a strong President sneezes (although we sleepily ignore the erosion of it). I like that our economy isn't based on one commodity, and that my government cannot (usually) go around the law WITHOUT BEHIND CALLED OUT PUBLICLY. All governments misbehave, it is how we handle the selling of Senate seats etc. that is the difference.

There are some scary similarities though, like our penchant to spend millions defending some vague interests with our military from a country that never attacked us - or manufacturing a wrong to allow unilateral action to be justified. Based on the government controls I see our new President imposing just due to a financial crisis, I am afraid of what we would allow if there were a real problem like a shortage of food.

Could not have said it better, my friend.

Viktoria just joined her favorite insomniac, and concurs

[slim 1,523]

I am afraid of what we would allow if there were a real problem like a shortage of food.

Just a matter of time.....

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

You won't be convincing K1Researcher that Putin isn't good for Russia, that is obvious. But I know that we refer to him as Tsar Putin in our house and we heard about the issuing of Russian passports in Ukraine several months ago. Our source is my brother in law who lives near Odessa. He just moved to Ukraine last year from Russia. While in Russia he said people openly talked about when they get Ukraine back. Of course you can't verify that, because it isn't discussed in any media because of the controls established by Putin. People like K1Researcher will continue to put their head in the sand everytime a journalist is killed who happened to be writing in opposition to the government or Putin. Yeah, it was just some fanatic going off on this journalist to protect Putin. If you believe that, have I got a bridge to sell you.

The situation in Georgia was a test run for Ukraine. Ukraine's only hope is to establish a strong democracy and even stronger capitalistic economy. Of course, joining NATO would help a lot, but they need to jump through a lot of hopes for that.

"Convincing a Putinist" is as impossible as getting them to answer certain straight forward questions. Iv'e dealt with Putinist for a few years now and it's always the same. They will avoid certain questions at all times....usually by bringing up something like; "Well the US does this... or ...the US did that....." but they will avoid asnwering certain and obvious questions when asked. It's an old debating trick to change the subject or answer a question with a another question thus avoiding having to answer the original question.

atm Ukraine depends on Russian gas, but Marathon oil who has been drilling some test holes in the UA has had some good results. If this pans out Ukraine will no longer be dependant on Russian gas.

And as far as verifying Russian's talking about taking the Crim back from Ukraine...well I will post some links where the mayor of Mosocw and a member of the Russian Duma openly made reference to it when speaking to the media.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20080512/107142320.html

http://www.inform.kz/showarticle.php?lang=eng&id=162914

Mox hit the nail on the head when he made that remark in his post about "learning Russian history with a shovel". Not to stretch this post out, but what scares me the most is the outright falsification of history by the SU and now Putin. Imagine braiwashing/Russifying generations of Ukrainians and Belarusians to the point they start to beleive the lies. Not to mention they lose their langauge and identity. That is what has happened to those two countries, but where Ukraine is making efforts to reverse the Russifiycation done to it, the Belarusian government continues to push the brainwashing on it's citizens.

Here's a few good links in reference to that.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080610/109809636.html

*Russia condemns Kiev's plans to mark nationalist battle*

http://www.unian.net/eng/news/news-257862.html

*Russia condemns rewriting of World War Two history*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Orsha

*Battle of Orsha*

"The battle is regarded as one of the symbols of the Belarusian national revival by Belarusian nationalists, but its significance is being suppressed by the Belarusian authorities. In September of 2005, by order of the president of Belarus Alexander Lukashenko, four members of the Belarusian National Front opposition were sentenced to almost 4 millions roubles (roughly 1500 Euro) fine each for the celebration of the 491st anniversary of the battle."

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

The editing feature on this board is not so great sometimes....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7622520.stm

*Russian gunboat diplomacy in Crimea?*

[K1researcher 0]

Huh? if you have specific question number them I will answer. I generally refuse to do any serious debates on the net because i like personal contact and I am a VERY sarcastic and light person so its hard to show that over typing.

The Kremlin does NOT own the media outlets.. they control them ... important difference. It sucks but America is the same way IMO unless you stick to tertiary cable channels. But poltical coverage is totally controlled.

as for journalists ... they shouldnt bad mouth the government ;-) id wack em too if i was leader.. all talking bad about me. the only way to shut em up is with lead poisoning ... That said, US doesnt kill them they just discredit them or consign them to oblivion ... rather the ones that speak out too much are disregarded by way of news channel outlets liek Fox or CNN hitting their respective targets for social elimination.

OCSE ... same as here IMO as i pointed out. Didnt dodge but in fact affirmed your response.

When university's here pressure students and teachers to vote for a certain president

wow you think they dont? almost every non-military school I have associated with preached/begged for all students to vote Obama (in most cases generically democrat)

and I believe that the US elections are exactly as rigged as the Russian ones. The only difference is that Americans delude themselves into thinking otherwise. I know its all fixed and the entire government is controlled by the wealthy elite. I just accept it and move on. But i have no confusion that we are somehow better in this respect than Russia. Liberalism is taught from kindergarten on throughout the majority of the nation, which is frankly worse than the manipulation done in Russia.

oh and good point Slim ;-) there is always someone to blame. Chechens are russia's generic terrorists. But even in America we aren't even allowed to bad mouth or hate terrorists anymore due to thought police (aka political correctness)

Well you passed the test K1researcher. You have managed to dodge my questions post after post. Good answer on the murdered journalist...16 of them btw in the last ten years. You managed to dodge the question about the Kremlin owning all the major media outlets, and you dodged the OSCE monitor question.

Way to go...you passed the Putin test.

[K1researcher 0]

Those are all interesting reads. but they are propaganda sources and not confirmed. Whee are the source documents? no citations :-( I understand we do not come form the same research backgrounds, but you have to understand why those sources are not valid. More importantly you need to recognize I have not outright disagreed with you either. I only present an alternative viewpoint which mirrors your own but through a different lens. For example .. Russia wants Crimea .. So? Let them take it.. Ukraine has been conquered so many times its not funny (Poland and even Lithuania conquered it). I speak without passion only raw data :-) But I don't think Russia will foricbly take Crimea.. manipulatively .. maybe .. but not through military force

In fact in the past 15 years Russia has been AWESOME in issuing grants and allowing research into archives and original Materials. Glantz (Famous Soviet historian), i know, recently received access to Stalin's original letters and orders which had been blocked forever. So they are being extremely open for that period. Even the US keeps many of these source docs under lock and key. Nothing new there.

concerning Tsar Putin .. umm yeah he doesn't want that .. Tsars in Russia tend to get shot in cottages ;-)

I am NOT a putinist. I am a historian, I deal only with direct fact. I think he did good for the country and the man himself has a very interesting history. But as i said I dislike an distrust ALL politicians.

I did not even admire Putin until after much research.

You won't be convincing K1Researcher that Putin isn't good for Russia, that is obvious. But I know that we refer to him as Tsar Putin in our house and we heard about the issuing of Russian passports in Ukraine several months ago. Our source is my brother in law who lives near Odessa. He just moved to Ukraine last year from Russia. While in Russia he said people openly talked about when they get Ukraine back. Of course you can't verify that, because it isn't discussed in any media because of the controls established by Putin. People like K1Researcher will continue to put their head in the sand everytime a journalist is killed who happened to be writing in opposition to the government or Putin. Yeah, it was just some fanatic going off on this journalist to protect Putin. If you believe that, have I got a bridge to sell you.

The situation in Georgia was a test run for Ukraine. Ukraine's only hope is to establish a strong democracy and even stronger capitalistic economy. Of course, joining NATO would help a lot, but they need to jump through a lot of hopes for that.

"Convincing a Putinist" is as impossible as getting them to answer certain straight forward questions. Iv'e dealt with Putinist for a few years now and it's always the same. They will avoid certain questions at all times....usually by bringing up something like; "Well the US does this... or ...the US did that....." but they will avoid asnwering certain and obvious questions when asked. It's an old debating trick to change the subject or answer a question with a another question thus avoiding having to answer the original question.

atm Ukraine depends on Russian gas, but Marathon oil who has been drilling some test holes in the UA has had some good results. If this pans out Ukraine will no longer be dependant on Russian gas.

And as far as verifying Russian's talking about taking the Crim back from Ukraine...well I will post some links where the mayor of Mosocw and a member of the Russian Duma openly made reference to it when speaking to the media.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20080512/107142320.html

http://www.inform.kz/showarticle.php?lang=eng&id=162914

Mox hit the nail on the head when he made that remark in his post about "learning Russian history with a shovel". Not to stretch this post out, but what scares me the most is the outright falsification of history by the SU and now Putin. Imagine braiwashing/Russifying generations of Ukrainians and Belarusians to the point they start to beleive the lies. Not to mention they lose their langauge and identity. That is what has happened to those two countries, but where Ukraine is making efforts to reverse the Russifiycation done to it, the Belarusian government continues to push the brainwashing on it's citizens.

Here's a few good links in reference to that.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080610/109809636.html

*Russia condemns Kiev's plans to mark nationalist battle*

http://www.unian.net/eng/news/news-257862.html

*Russia condemns rewriting of World War Two history*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Orsha

*Battle of Orsha*

"The battle is regarded as one of the symbols of the Belarusian national revival by Belarusian nationalists, but its significance is being suppressed by the Belarusian authorities. In September of 2005, by order of the president of Belarus Alexander Lukashenko, four members of the Belarusian National Front opposition were sentenced to almost 4 millions roubles (roughly 1500 Euro) fine each for the celebration of the 491st anniversary of the battle."

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Huh? if you have specific question number them I will answer. I generally refuse to do any serious debates on the net because i like personal contact and I am a VERY sarcastic and light person so its hard to show that over typing.

The Kremlin does NOT own the media outlets.. they control them ... important difference. It sucks but America is the same way IMO unless you stick to tertiary cable channels. But poltical coverage is totally controlled.

as for journalists ... they shouldnt bad mouth the government ;-) id wack em too if i was leader.. all talking bad about me. the only way to shut em up is with lead poisoning ... That said, US doesnt kill them they just discredit them or consign them to oblivion ... rather the ones that speak out too much are disregarded by way of news channel outlets liek Fox or CNN hitting their respective targets for social elimination.

OCSE ... same as here IMO as i pointed out. Didnt dodge but in fact affirmed your response.

When university's here pressure students and teachers to vote for a certain president

wow you think they dont? almost every non-military school I have associated with preached/begged for all students to vote Obama (in most cases generically democrat)

and I believe that the US elections are exactly as rigged as the Russian ones. The only difference is that Americans delude themselves into thinking otherwise. I know its all fixed and the entire government is controlled by the wealthy elite. I just accept it and move on. But i have no confusion that we are somehow better in this respect than Russia. Liberalism is taught from kindergarten on throughout the majority of the nation, which is frankly worse than the manipulation done in Russia.

oh and good point Slim ;-) there is always someone to blame. Chechens are russia's generic terrorists. But even in America we aren't even allowed to bad mouth or hate terrorists anymore due to thought police (aka political correctness)

Well you passed the test K1researcher. You have managed to dodge my questions post after post. Good answer on the murdered journalist...16 of them btw in the last ten years. You managed to dodge the question about the Kremlin owning all the major media outlets, and you dodged the OSCE monitor question.

Way to go...you passed the Putin test.

Qeustion; "How many national TV channels are in Russia?" Answer;"Three." Question; "How many are owned by the Kremlin/govenrnment?" Answer;"Two...Channel One and Russia TV." Who ownes the third one you ask? Answer; "Gazprom....it's called NTV."

National TV K1reasearcher is broadcasted to almost all of Russia...like close to 100% of the entire country. That would be like if the US government owned NBC, CBS, ABC, and FOX.

Izvestia is just one of many newspapers that the Kremlin either owns, or has shares in...usually via Gazprom. You do know that Gazprom is Kremlin owned and controlled yes? Infact it was Putins puppet aka Medvedev that was recently chairman of the board for Gazprom...which he gave up when he got "chosen" to be Russia's new president.

Also you say the OSCE is the same here as it is in Russia....not hardly K1researcher. The OSCE has NEVER had limits and/or restrictions put on them here in the US...unlike the last presidential elections in Russia. Infact more than a few observers compared last years presidential elections in Russia to the 2006 elections in Belarus...go figure eh.

btw camparing "discredited journalist" to "murdered journalist" is reaching don't you think? I do believe I would much rather be discredited than to have a bullet put into my skull.

One of my hobbies is European history in regards to migration of the Germanic tribes. But recently I have become very interested in the history Belarus and also of the Rus. If you don't mind me asking, what history do you study in particular?

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Those are all interesting reads. but they are propaganda sources and not confirmed. Whee are the source documents? no citations :-( I understand we do not come form the same research backgrounds, but you have to understand why those sources are not valid. More importantly you need to recognize I have not outright disagreed with you either. I only present an alternative viewpoint which mirrors your own but through a different lens. For example .. Russia wants Crimea .. So? Let them take it.. Ukraine has been conquered so many times its not funny (Poland and even Lithuania conquered it). I speak without passion only raw data :-) But I don't think Russia will foricbly take Crimea.. manipulatively .. maybe .. but not through military force

In fact in the past 15 years Russia has been AWESOME in issuing grants and allowing research into archives and original Materials. Glantz (Famous Soviet historian), i know, recently received access to Stalin's original letters and orders which had been blocked forever. So they are being extremely open for that period. Even the US keeps many of these source docs under lock and key. Nothing new there.

concerning Tsar Putin .. umm yeah he doesn't want that .. Tsars in Russia tend to get shot in cottages ;-)

I am NOT a putinist. I am a historian, I deal only with direct fact. I think he did good for the country and the man himself has a very interesting history. But as i said I dislike an distrust ALL politicians.

I did not even admire Putin until after much research.

I applogize for comming off so rude. But I am fond of history and I cannot tolerate people who pervert it like Tsar Putin. He is nothing short of the anti Christ in my opinion. The only thing that seperates him from Stalin is that he hasn't had the chance to wack 20,000,000+ people like ol Joe did.

George Orwell was quoted as saying; “He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls the future.”...and he was referring to the Kremlin when he said this...sans his book "The Animal Farm".

"Russia has been AWSOME in issuing grants allowing research into archives and original Materials...." ..you say?

Lets take a look at just how "AWSOME" the Kremlin has been in those regards. Here's just one exampe of the Kremlins AWSOMENESS" when it comes to lying through it's teeth in regards to Russian history. Granted it's wikipedia, but all scoures and references to this article are posted down at the bottom of the article. Infact a simple google search will verify this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

*Katyn massacre*

"During Kwasniewski's visit to Russia in September 2004, Russian officials announced that they are willing to transfer all the information on the Katyn Massacre to the Polish authorities as soon as it is declassified.

In March 2005 the Prosecutor's General Office of the Russian Federation concluded the decade-long investigation of the massacre. Chief Military Prosecutor Alexander Savenkov announced that the investigation was able to confirm the deaths of 1,803 out of 14,542 Polish citizens from three Soviet camps who had been sentenced to death. He did not address the fate of about 7,000 victims who had been not in POW camps, but in prisons. Savenkov declared that the massacre was not a genocide, that Soviet officials who had been found guilty of the crime were dead and that, consequently, there is absolutely no basis to talk about this in judicial terms. 116 out of 183 volumes of files gathered during the Russian investigation, were declared to contain state secrets and were classified.

Despite earlier declarations, President Vladimir Putin's government refused to allow Polish investigators to travel to Moscow in late 2004,

In late 2007 and early 2008, several Russian newspapers, including Rossiyskaya Gazeta, Komsomolskaya Pravda and Nezavisimaya Gazeta printed stories that implicated the Nazis for the crime, spurning concern that this was done with the tacit approval of the Kremlin."