The Right Wing's Latest Argument Against Public Health Care -- We'd Like It Too Much

[mox 298]

Call me crazy if you will, but I think it's time to start taking care of our own people for a change.

See there, I knew eventually we would agree.

I'll set 'em up, you knock 'em down.

[HAL 9000 96]

I'm always amazed at the people who actually believe the Govt is going to get (even deeper) involved in healthcare... and it will be more affordable, that defies logic.

What if I could give you a real world example of how government-run health care IN AMERICA could be more affordable than the private pay system?

I work in a non-profit mental health clinic. Most of our patients (about 90%) receive their "funding" from the State. The other 10% have private insurance coverage.

To handle the authorizations, pre-certifications, and eligibility determinations for that 10% of our patient population, there are THREE employees. To handle the same bereaucratic healthcare 'chore' for the remaining 90% of our patients we have ONE employee. She 'batches' her requests into a computerized system that spits out decisions. The 3 employees who handle the insurance patients have to sit on the phone all day long calling insurance companies for EVERY INDIVIDUAL REQUEST.

Okay, well that example you gave erases all the evidence we have seen in every govt run Program.

You know, there is a reason trash-pickup is privatized in every place where Unions don't have such heavy influence.

Why are all these "once run by govt" programs privatized? It saves a ton of money!

For everyone complaining about the "Cost" of healthcare... do you really think the COST is going to go down? If you are an average wage earner and you don't want to (or can't) pay for the cost of healthcare.... WHO DO YOU WANT TO PAY FOR IT?

Just admit you want A) someone else to pay for it, or B) you want the Govt to borrow money from China to pay for it. (in which case your kids will have to pay it back).

Actually, its not a cost to operations savings, Danno- its the companies paying city governments for the contracts to run the trash collections.

The whole point in regulating the healthcare system is to bring costs down, not in making others pay for something that would be cheaper anyway if public.

Merry Christmas

Trying to make logic out of either sentence has not been fruitful,

I think one of us has had to much to drink but let me try.

1. are you under the belief that my city pays a company more money to haul off my trash than it would cost to run the system themselves?

2.We know the "point" is to bring the cost of healthcare down, but How, unless you dictate what providers charge, is that part of the plan?

I'll give you another shot at better reading comp, brother Danno.

Hint- read the order in which the phrase is structured- 'company pays a city' usually infers that the city is getting payments from a company...

The other, second part involves volume-based logic and the prevention of frivolous corporate expenses. You know... or maybe not. Oh well.

No surprises there.

While this is a topic (trash pick-up) which I have only observatory info about, still. I will challenge your assumption that every city/municipality operate the same way.

IN one area I lived in, payments were made directly from me to the trash-removal company, I guess it is possible they Paid the city to get this contract.

The place I live now, a private company wins a bid and is paid buy the city to pick up trash.

IN both cases, the city saves a ton of money by eliminating the old style of ... gov;t trash pic-up.

As for the concept that Gov't is going to manage everyones healthcare and this VOLUME effort will lead to great savings is a sweet concept, which if it had any legs California or some other large city would have tried.

They know and you have to know.... the only way something like this works is when you have an endless supply of credit.

To bad you are not old enough to recall the promises of how "Social Security" will be self supporting.

I'd love to learn where it is I assume what you say I assume with such an absolute; specifically dealing with that trash pickup- and generically applicable to other city services. Usually as a descriptor ; 'usually' means not always.

But to the health care issue... whom is once again assuming it would be the government controlling the entire health care system? Not that in effect that would be a bad thing, since- as its been described ad nauseam previously, it would involve an entirely different way of structuring profitability, overhead, and costs which would make the present system seem like a gushing faucet.

Right. Its more involving the present way of doing things into a more intelligent method of not running companies into the ground by getting into coverage of those individuals that can't afford the ridiculously overpriced system in present day USA. Then we can consider making adjustments bit by bit. You can't make overnight changes on credit like the soon to be previous administration did and expect others to do the same after the economic fallout of the first debacle.

[rebeccajo 14]

I'm always amazed at the people who actually believe the Govt is going to get (even deeper) involved in healthcare... and it will be more affordable, that defies logic.

What if I could give you a real world example of how government-run health care IN AMERICA could be more affordable than the private pay system?

I work in a non-profit mental health clinic. Most of our patients (about 90%) receive their "funding" from the State. The other 10% have private insurance coverage.

To handle the authorizations, pre-certifications, and eligibility determinations for that 10% of our patient population, there are THREE employees. To handle the same bereaucratic healthcare 'chore' for the remaining 90% of our patients we have ONE employee. She 'batches' her requests into a computerized system that spits out decisions. The 3 employees who handle the insurance patients have to sit on the phone all day long calling insurance companies for EVERY INDIVIDUAL REQUEST.

Okay, well that example you gave erases all the evidence we have seen in every govt run Program.

You know, there is a reason trash-pickup is privatized in every place where Unions don't have such heavy influence.

Why are all these "once run by govt" programs privatized? It saves a ton of money!

For everyone complaining about the "Cost" of healthcare... do you really think the COST is going to go down? If you are an average wage earner and you don't want to (or can't) pay for the cost of healthcare.... WHO DO YOU WANT TO PAY FOR IT?

Just admit you want A) someone else to pay for it, or B) you want the Govt to borrow money from China to pay for it. (in which case your kids will have to pay it back).

What does trash pick-up have to do with healthcare? How are they even similar?

We all know that under the present system, those individuals who are not covered by private plans but do have coverage are covered by the State.

If the Federal Government took over these systems, why wouldn't State taxes go down?

[Danno 1,228]

We all know that under the present system, those individuals who are not covered by private plans but do have coverage are covered by the State.

If the Federal Government took over these systems, why wouldn't State taxes go down?

I would bet that the State covers these people at a loss.

Which means that some guy somewhere is not only going to work to pay for his healthcare but for those on this plan too.

not to be confused with "Shared risk".

Shared risk is when we all pay in according to the level of risk we bring to the pool of payers.Not sure if you were joking or not.... about "state taxes going down" when the Fed picks up the cost of these people?

Yeah, I can just see the Politicians now rushing to give that money back rather than...

1. Fund their pet-projects/ programs

2. Barter it into campaign dollars

Not only won't it ever come back to you but more than likely it will be used in some way in which

future tax dollars are need to maintain or fund what it was spent on in the first place.

It has nothing to do with evil Politicians, it has everything to do with the "Nature of Government".

The founders Clearly understood this and so they limited what the federal Govt would do.

... errr at least they thought they did.

[T and M 1]

What if an insurance model were to be continued to be used, except all 'profits' were returned to policyholders in the form of a year-end check?

We have a non-profit insurance company here that writes auto and home insurance policies. They don't do health though. Their operations are funded through premiums alone and their staff are paid by member companies. To be a policyholder there, you have to work for one of their member companies.

The problem would remain that the insurer would make more (and therefore its policyholders would make more) by denying care. If the insurance program insured people from cradle to grave (such as national, universal systems) they would have an economic incentive to pay for treatment and doctors visits to prevent more serious illnesses down the line. Strangely, the existence of Medicare (the only health care insurance program that everyone likes....patients, doctors, hospitals) takes away incentives for earlier payers (private insurance companies, employer-sponsored plans, individuals) to invest in prevention, when Medicare will pick up the more expensive tab down the line,

We are a very sick society and small tweaks won't help. We need a system that insures everyone within our borders from cradle to grave. After having lived with this type of security, I weep for Americans having to live without it.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

We are a very sick society and small tweaks won't help. We need a system that insures everyone within our borders from cradle to grave. After having lived with this type of security, I weep for Americans having to live without it.

Lets all weep that'll help.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Dieing in line, wating to get care is good? Just like Carol's mom did. Now thats disgusting!

People die due to unavailable care all over the globe. Each and every day. Here people die being denied available care. That's what's truly disgusting.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Dieing in line, wating to get care is good? Just like Carol's mom did. Now thats disgusting!

People die due to unavailable care all over the globe. Each and every day. Here people die being denied available care. That's what's truly disgusting.

Whats disgusting ppl dieing all over the globe or ppl dieing here? Is here different than the globe? Not an emergency room in this country that will deny care.

[T and M 1]

We are a very sick society and small tweaks won't help. We need a system that insures everyone within our borders from cradle to grave. After having lived with this type of security, I weep for Americans having to live without it.

Lets all weep that'll help.

I wasn't being facetious. I actually have. And if you haven't, you are blind to what people are going through. The number one reason for bankruptcy in the US is unpaid health bills. This doesn't make you weep?

Once you start weeping, let us know, b/c we have already passed the weeping stage and we are out fighting for a better tomorrow. You can join us but you would probably have to admit there is a problem first.

[T and M 1]

Dieing in line, wating to get care is good? Just like Carol's mom did. Now thats disgusting!

People die due to unavailable care all over the globe. Each and every day. Here people die being denied available care. That's what's truly disgusting.

Whats disgusting ppl dieing all over the globe or ppl dieing here? Is here different than the globe? Not an emergency room in this country that will deny care.

Nor anywhere else in the world. We are talking about access to doctors, real health care. You know, before a spleen has ruptured and you are in the emergency room and the bills are piling up that will eventually ruin you and wipe out half of your retirement fund.

If you skull is fractured you will get treated at any hospital in the world. The difference is how you get treated once they patch you up.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

We are a very sick society and small tweaks won't help. We need a system that insures everyone within our borders from cradle to grave. After having lived with this type of security, I weep for Americans having to live without it.

Lets all weep that'll help.

I wasn't being facetious. I actually have. And if you haven't, you are blind to what people are going through. The number one reason for bankruptcy in the US is unpaid health bills. This doesn't make you weep?

Once you start weeping, let us know, b/c we have already passed the weeping stage and we are out fighting for a better tomorrow. You can join us but you would probably have to admit there is a problem first.

I think you might want to fight your way into a therapists office! Dont worry about me, I can take care of myself. But if I need a real fighter I will be sure and let you know.

[T and M 1]

We are a very sick society and small tweaks won't help. We need a system that insures everyone within our borders from cradle to grave. After having lived with this type of security, I weep for Americans having to live without it.

Lets all weep that'll help.

I wasn't being facetious. I actually have. And if you haven't, you are blind to what people are going through. The number one reason for bankruptcy in the US is unpaid health bills. This doesn't make you weep?

Once you start weeping, let us know, b/c we have already passed the weeping stage and we are out fighting for a better tomorrow. You can join us but you would probably have to admit there is a problem first.

I think you might want to fight your way into a therapists office! Dont worry about me, I can take care of myself. But if I need a real fighter I will be sure and let you know.

Lol. I'll check to see if my HMO covers mental health.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

We are a very sick society and small tweaks won't help. We need a system that insures everyone within our borders from cradle to grave. After having lived with this type of security, I weep for Americans having to live without it.

Lets all weep that'll help.

I wasn't being facetious. I actually have. And if you haven't, you are blind to what people are going through. The number one reason for bankruptcy in the US is unpaid health bills. This doesn't make you weep?

Once you start weeping, let us know, b/c we have already passed the weeping stage and we are out fighting for a better tomorrow. You can join us but you would probably have to admit there is a problem first.

I think you might want to fight your way into a therapists office! Dont worry about me, I can take care of myself. But if I need a real fighter I will be sure and let you know.

Lol. I'll check to see if my HMO covers mental health.

Your prolly gonna need a RX too.

[mox 298]

I wasn't being facetious. I actually have. And if you haven't, you are blind to what people are going through. The number one reason for bankruptcy in the US is unpaid health bills. This doesn't make you weep?

Once you start weeping, let us know, b/c we have already passed the weeping stage and we are out fighting for a better tomorrow. You can join us but you would probably have to admit there is a problem first.

He only "weeps" and expects sympathy when it has affected him personally. It's really all about him.

[T and M 1]

We are a very sick society and small tweaks won't help. We need a system that insures everyone within our borders from cradle to grave. After having lived with this type of security, I weep for Americans having to live without it.

Lets all weep that'll help.

I wasn't being facetious. I actually have. And if you haven't, you are blind to what people are going through. The number one reason for bankruptcy in the US is unpaid health bills. This doesn't make you weep?

Once you start weeping, let us know, b/c we have already passed the weeping stage and we are out fighting for a better tomorrow. You can join us but you would probably have to admit there is a problem first.

I think you might want to fight your way into a therapists office! Dont worry about me, I can take care of myself. But if I need a real fighter I will be sure and let you know.

Lol. I'll check to see if my HMO covers mental health.

Your prolly gonna need a RX too.

Thanks doc.