Note: Removing Inactive members from the Org Team

[LaL 418]

OK to remove me from Organizer status. I post rarely, and won't go out of my way to post that I moved something to the correct forum.

ETA: i do think posting such can interrupt the flow of the conversation.

Edited December 21, 2008 by LaL

[mox 298]

I don't get all the fuss about the organizers.. all we can do is move threads... lol.. we can't lock threads or anything else...

Then you have a lot of reading to catch up on.

[Marilyn. 340]

I don't get all the fuss about the organizers.. all we can do is move threads... lol.. we can't lock threads or anything else...

Then you have a lot of reading to catch up on.

I have read this whole thread... I still don't get what the fuss is about....

[Sinergy 3]

the fuss is about how ppl HAVE to complain about EVERYTHING that doesnt suit THEM...so they get upset, and take it to the mods or CAPT...as if they dont have enough to do already.

[rebeccajo 14]

I don't get all the fuss about the organizers.. all we can do is move threads... lol.. we can't lock threads or anything else...

Then you have a lot of reading to catch up on.

I have read this whole thread... I still don't get what the fuss is about....

Yeah that big-thread moving capability means we are supposed to be superior in our conduct.

If that didn't involve lying down and being a doormat, I'd have no problem with it.

[Sinergy 3]

I don't get all the fuss about the organizers.. all we can do is move threads... lol.. we can't lock threads or anything else...

Then you have a lot of reading to catch up on.

I have read this whole thread... I still don't get what the fuss is about....

Yeah that big-thread moving capability means we are supposed to be superior in our conduct.

If that didn't involve lying down and being a doormat, I'd have no problem with it.

EXACTLY!!!!!

[rebeccajo 14]

Mods probably get abused the most

that doesnt exclude that orgs get abused ALOT...thats my point

I'm asking that the mods and admin enforce the TOS. One can defend themselves from abuse WITHIN the terms of service. The TOS violations in this thread are not in response to any abuse of organizers unless you consider the request to enforce TOS an abuse.

You yourself have abused the TOS many times...so i dont know why you are yelling wolf

If attacks on "people" are within the TOS, will the Mods and Admin please clarify. Disagreements on immigration issues can be discussed without resorting to personal attacks.

OMG.

My head is so hurting from all this.......

When you belittle 'people' you are supposedly 'helping', you don't think others have the right to admonish you?

Whether somebody is being "bilittled" is a matter of opinion and if the admonishment amounts to a violation of TOS, then the TOS need to be enforced. This is the particular section to which I refer. Would the admin care to render an authoritative opinion on its meaning wrt. the subject at hand? Please include your opinion on which members are responsible for "admonishing" other members.

Make comments in a Post either direct or implied toward another member that are purposely designed to upset, antagonize, make fun of, belittle, or otherwise instigate an argument that takes away from the personal enjoyment of the Service by other users.

Publicly? Wouldn't that, in itself, serve to further "belittle" the individuals involved? Why do you need the Admin to do that? To make a point? And to what end?

Frankly, I have long ago determined that the TOS doesn't work without a moderator online and in each forum all the time. There is an ability on here to take one's "######" from one thread to another without anyone other than those active on each thread involved to know what is really being said. And furthermore, if someone does violate the part of the TOS to which you refer, it's near impossible to draw that individual's attention to that fact without being cited for violation oneself. My thoughts in this regard are that while it is impossible to have "real time" moderation without compensation for hours and hours of work invested, the individual in a particular exchange that should receive admonishment or penalty, should really be the one who first cast the stone. Thereafter, it's merely self-defense.

I think it's not enough for some that certain organizers have been removed. They want some that remain drawn and quartered.

[mox 298]

Yeah that big-thread moving capability means we are supposed to be superior in our conduct.

If that didn't involve lying down and being a doormat, I'd have no problem with it.

Why does this have to be about extremes? If I say "I expect VJ 'staff' to be held to the same standards of conduct as a moderator," why does that automatically imply that you must become a doormat? Do you think the moderators are doormats?

And the thread-moving capability has and continues to be abused. If it's not obvious to you how this has been done, then cool because it means you probably haven't abused that ability. But others have.

The call for accountability is because some of you organizers have abused your positions. It may or may not have been you personally, but it's that whole bad apple spoiling it for others thing that has kicked this off.

I think it's not enough for some that certain organizers have been removed. They want some that remain drawn and quartered.

I would be happy for certain organizers to be removed without being humiliated. I some of those organizers know who they are, and it would be best for everybody if they just voluntarily stepped down.

Edited December 21, 2008 by mox

[LaL 418]

Yeah that big-thread moving capability means we are supposed to be superior in our conduct.

If that didn't involve lying down and being a doormat, I'd have no problem with it.

Why does this have to be about extremes? If I say "I expect VJ 'staff' to be held to the same standards of conduct as a moderator," why does that automatically imply that you must become a doormat? Do you think the moderators are doormats?

And the thread-moving capability has and continues to be abused. If it's not obvious to you how this has been done, then cool because it means you probably haven't abused that ability. But others have.

The call for accountability is because some of you organizers have abused your positions. It may or may not have been you personally, but it's that whole bad apple spoiling it for others thing that has kicked this off.

Oh please Mox. Seriously? Is this about anything other than your tiff with Charles? Moving is "abused"?? This is exactly what tara is referring to. A few situations where feathers are ruffled and people are calling for blood. While there might be some organizers who take the "job" a bit too seriously - there are members who are kinda ridiculously outraged.

[mox 298]

Oh please Mox. Seriously? Is this about anything other than your tiff with Charles? Moving is "abused"?? This is exactly what tara is referring to. A few situations where feathers are ruffled and people are calling for blood. While there might be some organizers who take the "job" a bit too seriously - there are members who are kinda ridiculously outraged.

My "tiff" with Charles is what finally made me mad enough to push the issue. That issue was satisfactorily resolved, and although I don't personally like him, I haven't seen him abusing his position like he used to. So I'm not calling for his or anyone else's head. This didn't just start with charles. I've brought the issue of organizers up before I ever ran into charles. Several times. Plus I've sat on the sidelines many times while others handled it.

I'm not calling for blood. I'm just calling for accountability.

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

Whew...!! That is a lot to digest. I think I made my major points on this a few pages back so I will not repeat myself.

Here are a few comments I had though on some of the things I read:

People should not make others feel bad or insult them for not speaking English well. Heck, at least they are trying to talk in what may be a second or third language to get help. Should they learn English when they come to the US -- sure. Does that mean that English will be their best language at this very moment or even the language in which they can best express themselves? I doubt it. VJ is in part about embracing diversity.

Telling someone that you do not like them is not a TOS violation. Telling someone that you think that they are mean or rude is probably not either. In the real world people can respectfully choose to not like you and be honest on why they don't. Example, I tell someone "I don't like you because I think you are a jerk and rude to me -- that is how I feel and I am sorry if that hurts you to hear." Not everyone will be friends. Crossing the so called line would potentially be something like this, "F--- you! You are a piece of horse ----! You can suck it and burn in ---- you little ----". I am pretty sure that crosses the line. So there is a difference between telling a person that you don't like them (and why) versus just purely attacking them.

Not everyone agrees with the mod/admin decisions on this or every site. I know this and while I try my best to listen to everyone and make fair decisions (to everyone), sometimes the final call will have to leave some people unhappy. I spend a lot of time trying to get the opinion of all sides and to appease them, but I heave learned that while this is noble it is also sometimes impossible.

There are many areas of the TOS that list "subjective" do's don'ts (it is impossible to be more precise and in all reality to define good and bad "behavior"). This is why the following text exists in the TOS, "If Visajourney.com discovers Content or communications that allegedly do not conform to any term of the TOS, Visajourney.com may investigate the allegation and determine in good faith and in its sole discretion whether to remove or request the removal of the communication or Content. Visajourney.com will have no liability or responsibility for performance or non-performance of such activities."

Bottom Line... have fun, treat people with respect, not everyone will get along, would you say what you say here at the "office/work"?, consider the diverse nature of the community and respect that.

[Krikit 1,164]

I can honestly say that I have never viewed pushbrk's posts as insulting or condescending. I just see them as his attempt to clarify and/or correct the points or issues being discussed. I also don't feel victimized as an organizer. I believe Ewok's rules for organizers are fair and appropriate.

[Krikit 1,164]

Telling someone that you do not like them is not a TOS violation. Telling someone that you think that they are mean or rude is probably not either. In the real world people can respectfully choose to not like you and be honest on why they don't. Example, I tell someone "I don't like you because I think you are a jerk and rude to me -- that is how I feel and I am sorry if that hurts you to hear." Not everyone will be friends. Crossing the so called line would potentially be something like this, "F--- you! You are a piece of horse ----! You can suck it and burn in ---- you little ----". I am pretty sure that crosses the line. So there is a difference between telling a person that you don't like them (and why) versus just purely attacking them.

[pushbrk 12,877]

People should not make others feel bad or insult them for not speaking English well. Heck, at least they are trying to talk in what may be a second or third language to get help. Should they learn English when they come to the US -- sure. Does that mean that English will be their best language at this very moment or even the language in which they can best express themselves? I doubt it. VJ is in part about embracing diversity.

I appreciate the whole of the level headed response. If you've actually seen anybody insult somebody for not speaking English well, that's one thing. When I mention English skill it is in the context of the need for somebody to have sufficient English skill to study guides, read carefully, interpret literally and determine how to answer accurately and honestly. I suggest that when neither the petitioner or beneficiary has enough skill in that area or it's apparent that if they have it they aren't using it, I suggest their chances of immigration success will be enhanced by obtaining the assistance or services of somebody willing and able to use the needed English language skill. If somebody "feels bad" about their English skill as a result of my advice, that's one of their choices. The hope is they'll take appropriate action regardless of their feelings.

Opinions vary on my motives but they are opinions, often expressed for no other reason than to criticize and without adding anything of substance to an ongoing discussion. I'm going to help people as I think most effective. If it doesn't meet with your approval, you can certainly tell me so. If it's your judgment that the repeated personal attacks are within TOS, so be it. I think they make this a less helpful place. The bickering drives people away, negatively impacting the statistics on which I presume the advertising revenue is based. A private word now and then (more frequently in the context I've brought up) would be welcome in my opinion. I recognize that opinions vary.

[rebeccajo 14]

See what I mean?

You see nothing wrong with how you speak. I said that if it was addressed this would be your response.