Note: Removing Inactive members from the Org Team

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

I have notified ALL Org Team members regarding the new rules. They are effective immediately.

I don't see a problem with how organizers move things around. I'd like to see no more personal attacks on members by organizers. That was the point. That's what reflects badly on the ownership, IMO. I'm disappointed you didn't see fit to address that issue.

I actually have (just did not post here). An hour or so ago I left a note for the moderators that Org Team members should be treated as Members and given no perks (so to speak). I do not think that this was the case before but I wanted to put it in writing. I told the Moderators to notify me if they saw any of the new rules broken and I would take care of it from there (members can notify me too).

I do think I see your point however. It has to do with "gray". More specifically the TOS is sometimes subjective so there are "gray" areas that people can operate in. People being rude or brash (to a degree) is part of being an adult and having to learn to deal with it. We can not be the moral police and there is an expectation that this is a site for adults. That said, this is a family immigration site so there are some limits (see TOS). The "gray" area w.r.t the TOS is clearly smaller for moderators so they should be much more careful on how they interact with members to at all costs avoid a perceived (or real) conflict of interest. Finally for me the gray is much more narrow (and in fact because of this I seldom post in anything but site related topics, moderation issues, or an occasional off topic innocent thread).

The other point I have considered is that Org Team members do not (and are never responsible for) interpreting the TOS. Ultimately that is up to the admin of VJ and the Moderators (of which their decisions, if disagreed with by anyone, can be petitioned to the admin to be reviewed). Because an Organizer does not interpret or act upon the TOS there is in my mind a very large difference between them and a moderator. That said, there can always be a perception by members that because they have the title "Organizer" in their profile that they are somehow something "more" than is truly intended. Originally I wanted to add the title to the Org Team's profiles as a sort of recognition of their kind efforts to volunteer time to help keep the forums organized. I still think that this is important to do (to thank them like this) but maybe there is a better way that would not raise an incorrect perception.

Again if an Org Team member misuses their "extra" feature (to move threads) or violates the TOS they will lose that ability.

...and after rambling on I am also comfortable asking the Moderation team to slightly narrow the gray area for Org Team members (but not nearly as much as Moderators or myself). Generally a nice reminder when needed is enough. The bottom line is that IMO any Org Team member that wishes to "flaunt" or tries to leverage their title (or moving ability) for personal gain should not be a part of the Org Team.

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

personal attacks on members by organizers

If you see this please use the report tool. Myself and all the moderators will be notified. Personal attacks of any consequence are a violation of the TOS and under the new rules will potentially end up causing an Org Team member to be removed from that user group.

[pushbrk 12,877]

personal attacks on members by organizers

If you see this please use the report tool. Myself and all the moderators will be notified. Personal attacks of any consequence are a violation of the TOS and under the new rules will potentially end up causing an Org Team member to be removed from that user group.

Well, anybody reading this thread saw one of the personal insults directed at me and can clearly see the difference in your response and theirs. I suppose it would be too much to ask of the moderators to remove from sight the personal attack posts or portions thereof while dealing with the attackers, but I think it would set a far better example than leaving them for all to read in perpetuity.

Anyway, thanks for your willingness to address the issue publicly. I'll look forward to a swift change in behavior from those who know or don't know who they are. For what it's worth, I never saw this as any sort of abuse of power. I see it as holding people to an appropriate standard, wrt the terms of service. Whether intended or not, the members see the organizers as examples of what is acceptable behavior.

[rebeccajo 14]

personal attacks on members by organizers

If you see this please use the report tool. Myself and all the moderators will be notified. Personal attacks of any consequence are a violation of the TOS and under the new rules will potentially end up causing an Org Team member to be removed from that user group.

Well, anybody reading this thread saw one of the personal insults directed at me and can clearly see the difference in your response and theirs. I suppose it would be too much to ask of the moderators to remove from sight the personal attack posts or portions thereof while dealing with the attackers, but I think it would set a far better example than leaving them for all to read in perpetuity.

Anyway, thanks for your willingness to address the issue publicly. I'll look forward to a swift change in behavior from those who know or don't know who they are. For what it's worth, I never saw this as any sort of abuse of power. I see it as holding people to an appropriate standard, wrt the terms of service. Whether intended or not, the members see the organizers as examples of what is acceptable behavior.

Pushbrk, you need to learn that you reap what you sow. Remember what Ewok said above about being an adult? You certainly have no problem with beating people about the head for everything from their signature size to their ability to speak English. And all in the name of so-called 'straight talk'. Not to mention the fact that you seem to have a particular problem with females who might know a thing or two as evidenced last week by your joining in with some of the other little boys to have a go at me.

If you can't take it when people give it back to you, then maybe you better re-think your style.

Just for the record, the fact that I am an Organizer has nothing to do with the way I address you. I'd do the same if I were not. You are not a straight-talker. You are rude PLUS you give an entirely new meaning to the word 'pompous'. As long as you continue to be, you can expect to get it back.

[pushbrk 12,877]

personal attacks on members by organizers

If you see this please use the report tool. Myself and all the moderators will be notified. Personal attacks of any consequence are a violation of the TOS and under the new rules will potentially end up causing an Org Team member to be removed from that user group.

Well, anybody reading this thread saw one of the personal insults directed at me and can clearly see the difference in your response and theirs. I suppose it would be too much to ask of the moderators to remove from sight the personal attack posts or portions thereof while dealing with the attackers, but I think it would set a far better example than leaving them for all to read in perpetuity.

Anyway, thanks for your willingness to address the issue publicly. I'll look forward to a swift change in behavior from those who know or don't know who they are. For what it's worth, I never saw this as any sort of abuse of power. I see it as holding people to an appropriate standard, wrt the terms of service. Whether intended or not, the members see the organizers as examples of what is acceptable behavior.

Pushbrk, you need to learn that you reap what you sow. Remember what Ewok said above about being an adult? You certainly have no problem with beating people about the head for everything from their signature size to their ability to speak English. And all in the name of so-called 'straight talk'. Not to mention the fact that you seem to have a particular problem with females who might know a thing or two as evidenced last week by your joining in with some of the other little boys to have a go at me.

If you can't take it when people give it back to you, then maybe you better re-think your style.

Just for the record, the fact that I am an Organizer has nothing to do with the way I address you. I'd do the same if I were not. You are not a straight-talker. You are rude PLUS you give an entirely new meaning to the word 'pompous'. As long as you continue to be, you can expect to get it back.

This is a perfect example of a "personal" insult. It's not about an issue. It's about a person. As such it's out of line and IMO violates the terms of service. It also sets the example that such posts are accepted by the mods because they continue to allow such personal insults and attacks without admonishment. People may not like my direct style and they may "feel" put down by my pointed advice about how to have a successful visa process but you will not see me directly personally insulting them.

Disagreeing with a woman is allowed. If any boys "had a go at you" last week, it was because of what you wrote, not because a woman wrote it and anybody who wishes can compare the personal attacks in your posts to the disagreements about issues in mine. Of course, the Captain or any Mod is free to let me know if they have a problem with anything I do here. When and if that happens, I'll respond accordingly. In the meantime, it is my understanding it's not YOUR job to do so with insults and other personal attacks. If I'm wrong about this, I encourage the Captain to tell me so, here and now.

It's not up to me but if it were, your membership would be cancelled for blatant repeated violations of TOS.

Edited December 21, 2008 by pushbrk

[rebeccajo 14]

personal attacks on members by organizers

If you see this please use the report tool. Myself and all the moderators will be notified. Personal attacks of any consequence are a violation of the TOS and under the new rules will potentially end up causing an Org Team member to be removed from that user group.

Well, anybody reading this thread saw one of the personal insults directed at me and can clearly see the difference in your response and theirs. I suppose it would be too much to ask of the moderators to remove from sight the personal attack posts or portions thereof while dealing with the attackers, but I think it would set a far better example than leaving them for all to read in perpetuity.

Anyway, thanks for your willingness to address the issue publicly. I'll look forward to a swift change in behavior from those who know or don't know who they are. For what it's worth, I never saw this as any sort of abuse of power. I see it as holding people to an appropriate standard, wrt the terms of service. Whether intended or not, the members see the organizers as examples of what is acceptable behavior.

Pushbrk, you need to learn that you reap what you sow. Remember what Ewok said above about being an adult? You certainly have no problem with beating people about the head for everything from their signature size to their ability to speak English. And all in the name of so-called 'straight talk'. Not to mention the fact that you seem to have a particular problem with females who might know a thing or two as evidenced last week by your joining in with some of the other little boys to have a go at me.

If you can't take it when people give it back to you, then maybe you better re-think your style.

Just for the record, the fact that I am an Organizer has nothing to do with the way I address you. I'd do the same if I were not. You are not a straight-talker. You are rude PLUS you give an entirely new meaning to the word 'pompous'. As long as you continue to be, you can expect to get it back.

This is a perfect example of a "personal" insult. It's not about an issue. It's about a person. As such it's out of line and IMO violates the terms of service. It also sets the example that such posts are accepted by the mods because they continue to allow such personal insults and attacks without admonishment. People may not like my direct style and they may "feel" put down by my pointed advice about how to have a successful visa process but you will not see me directly personally insulting them.

Disagreeing with a woman is allowed. If any boys "had a go at you" last week, it was because of what you wrote, not because a woman wrote it and anybody who wishes can compare the personal attacks in your posts to the disagreements about issues in mine. Of course, the Captain or any Mod is free to let me know if they have a problem with anything I do here. When and if that happens, I'll respond accordingly. In the meantime, it is my understanding it's not YOUR job to do so with insults and other personal attacks. If I'm wrong about this, I encourage the Captain to tell me so, here and now.

It's not up to me but if it were, your membership would be cancelled for blatant repeated violations of TOS.

Your 'according' responses are always that it is your right as an adult to speak straight forwardly. So don't give us all this nonsense about how would respond. Your response is ALWAYS that you have a right to say what you say, how you want to say it, and to whomever. You wouldn't change the way you speak to people around here no matter what Admin were to say to you. You are rude and condescending. And, you are not always RIGHT in the advice you offer to members either. But the bullying, swaggering manner in which you handle yourself gives off the aura that you are. It would be refreshing to have a conversation with you in the upper forums wherein you note that you actually learned something from others - I never see that. Rather I see 'sponge' responses from you wherein it's clear from whom and when you gained your knowlege, but fail to ever give them credit.

That's the difference between how things used to be around here than the way they are now. There used to be a team of individuals who had different expertise in different areas of the process and they worked together for the good of the site. Now we have one online 'expert' who thinks he knows it all, and wouldn't say thank-you to someone else for a post if his life depended on it.

You can call this an attack if you like. I prefer to keep discussions out in the open rather than via private message. That's what grown ups do. You need to grow up, be an adult and learn to deal with the consequences of your online personna.

Edited December 21, 2008 by rebeccajo

[pushbrk 12,877]

Either the TOS are terms of service or they are not. If they are, then they apply to all. If they don't apply to all, and/or if there is no consequence for violating them, then they are not terms of service. They are just empty words.

[rebeccajo 14]

Either the TOS are terms of service or they are not. If they are, then they apply to all. If they don't apply to all, and/or if there is no consequence for violating them, then they are not terms of service. They are just empty words.

Here's what's going to happen from now on, Mike.

Every time I see you be being a condescending, pushy, overbearing and overall mean individual, I'm going to hit the Report button.

Some things are worse than violating the TOS.....and one of them is just generally being miserable to the rest of the human race.

Seriously, what the heck is wrong with you that you can't 'help' people without making them feel horrible about it?

[Jenn! 918]

The bickering back and forth between the two of you does no one any good. You both obviously take issue with the other's "posting style", but both of you bring valuable contribution to the site. I don't suppose there's any chance you can agree to disagree and ignore each other's posts or do whatever it takes to put an end to the bickering that has disrupted many a thread? I'd just hate this to become a "last man standing" situation.

[pushbrk 12,877]

Either the TOS are terms of service or they are not. If they are, then they apply to all. If they don't apply to all, and/or if there is no consequence for violating them, then they are not terms of service. They are just empty words.

Here's what's going to happen from now on, Mike.

Every time I see you be being a condescending, pushy, overbearing and overall mean individual, I'm going to hit the Report button.

Some things are worse than violating the TOS.....and one of them is just generally being miserable to the rest of the human race.

Seriously, what the heck is wrong with you that you can't 'help' people without making them feel horrible about it?

Anybody with admin privileges to compare my profile comments and PM's to those of other members is encouraged to do so. Any moderator or admin has always been free to comment publicly or privately and is certainly encouraged to do so now. If personal attacks by organizers and/or general members are acceptable, then I suggest the TOS be modified to reflect the tolerance of such behavior. If not tolerated, then do something about it, so it ceases.

[rebeccajo 14]

The bickering back and forth between the two of you does no one any good. You both obviously take issue with the other's "posting style", but both of you bring valuable contribution to the site. I don't suppose there's any chance you can agree to disagree and ignore each other's posts or do whatever it takes to put an end to the bickering that has disrupted many a thread? I'd just hate this to become a "last man standing" situation.

Mike has made it clear that were it his choice, my account would be deleted.

He has drawn the line in the sand, not me.

[rebeccajo 14]

Either the TOS are terms of service or they are not. If they are, then they apply to all. If they don't apply to all, and/or if there is no consequence for violating them, then they are not terms of service. They are just empty words.

Here's what's going to happen from now on, Mike.

Every time I see you be being a condescending, pushy, overbearing and overall mean individual, I'm going to hit the Report button.

Some things are worse than violating the TOS.....and one of them is just generally being miserable to the rest of the human race.

Seriously, what the heck is wrong with you that you can't 'help' people without making them feel horrible about it?

Anybody with admin privileges to compare my profile comments and PM's to those of other members is encouraged to do so. Any moderator or admin has always been free to comment publicly or privately and is certainly encouraged to do so now. If personal attacks by organizers and/or general members are acceptable, then I suggest the TOS be modified to reflect the tolerance of such behavior. If not tolerated, then do something about it, so it ceases.

You just don't get it do you?

Does it ever enter your mind that what you regard as an attack on you is precipitated by HOW YOU ACT! Since when is it a TOS violation to call someone out on that? I mean, you don't have a problem with telling somebody they have trouble with English....................

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

I'd like to see no more personal attacks on members by organizers. That was the point. That's what reflects badly on the ownership, IMO. I'm disappointed you didn't see fit to address that issue.

He did address it.

Here's where.

1) If an organizer is suspended for anything beyond the most casual of items (we all do stupid little things now and again) their Organizer status will be removed for no shorter then 60 days before we will consider reinstating it.

[brnidokiegurl 0]

Either the TOS are terms of service or they are not. If they are, then they apply to all. If they don't apply to all, and/or if there is no consequence for violating them, then they are not terms of service. They are just empty words.

Here's what's going to happen from now on, Mike.

Every time I see you be being a condescending, pushy, overbearing and overall mean individual, I'm going to hit the Report button.

Some things are worse than violating the TOS.....and one of them is just generally being miserable to the rest of the human race.

Seriously, what the heck is wrong with you that you can't 'help' people without making them feel horrible about it?

Anybody with admin privileges to compare my profile comments and PM's to those of other members is encouraged to do so. Any moderator or admin has always been free to comment publicly or privately and is certainly encouraged to do so now. If personal attacks by organizers and/or general members are acceptable, then I suggest the TOS be modified to reflect the tolerance of such behavior. If not tolerated, then do something about it, so it ceases.

maybe if you both do this process, you both can be sent to your corners for a while

[rebeccajo 14]

maybe if you both do this process, you both can be sent to your corners for a while

LOL.

You have a point.

Look....I don't have a dog in this fight anymore really. I stayed around VJ after the physical separation between my husband and I ended because I wanted to pay back the help I had been given. I did that for a good long while and I enjoyed it. I made a lot of friends and I learned a lot.

After a while, it became more difficult for me to help people. It seemed the issue of my timeline was brought up more and more. I could enter a thread and say the most innocuous thing and quickly be told to GTFO. I'm fairly certain that if there is 'bad blood' between me and certain more-vocal members of VJ, nine times out of ten you will find the root-cause of the problem isn't what I said as much as it is my timeline.

I'll take self-responsibility at this point and note that about a year ago, I decided enough was enough and stopped trying to reason with persons who attacked me over the timeline. My tactic became to give it right back at the same intensity it was leveled at me. This might not be the best way to handle the problem, but it had just become to overwhelming to handle otherwise. Moderators cannot be on-board all the time, and essentially I had to stand up for myself.

I should note that this is not the problem between myself and pushbrk. He has never attacked me for my timeline. I do bring it up, however, because of the thread last week wherein he decided to line himself up with what I referred to as 'little boys'. Those gentlemen in question have specifically taken issue with my timeline in the past. I personally felt that for him to sit and 'gang up' with those persons was .....immature.

Anyway - I don't go to the upper forums much anymore because of the attacks. It's really just too difficult to try and help people who can't get past the fact I got lucky.

Edited December 21, 2008 by rebeccajo