Does the punishment fit the CRIME ???

[prepelix 0]

DOES THE PUNISHMENT FIT THE “CRIME”???

(This is going to be a long post )

FACTS

My girlfriend applied through a student placement agency and lucky for her she got selected in May2000. I felt like I am going to lose her ( 7 years together) so I started to look for a sponsor myself in US, ending up in the same place like her as love was more powerful then money (I sent my resume to 2000 companies). I did not go through a recruiting company instead I did everything by my best knowledge and internet.

20th July 2000 – 19th November 2000 visa j1 - work and travel, came back in time on 15th of December 2000

I checked the IAP 66 and visa application with student and presented myself with a valid student card for 2000, final year of study, i was asked all the usual questions, what am I going to do with the very important final exam (license exam), i postponed it I smiled got the visa went to US and I felt there that I can do everything I put my mind into.

Came back in December and traveled a month for training in France Alps for a company with a very interesting business model on leisure time and activities. i got trained but I did not stay with them as the US mirage was more powerful

30th April 2001 – 12th September 2001 visa j1 - camp counselor, came back in time on 11th October 2001

This is a disputed visa for which I got denied a manager trainee visa in 2003. Please pay attention to what I am about to say:

I went to the embassy with the exact same papers like the ones in 2000 as it was a identical situation, I still had the final exam to pass and I considered that ... I will face the consular officer I will tell him that I am still a student ... final exam to pass ... and having nothing else to hide with a previous respected visa I will get another one. Now I know THAT I WOULD NOT HAVE GOT IT. Reason .. I was not a student anymore but a graduated student without license. It happened that in that day for the same visa like me the j1 there were hundreds of others in front of the embassy, not even a line was not possible that many were there, so the embassy officials decided to collect all the passports and visa applications and only to call in the few that needed explaining to do. I stood there waiting to be called in as I knew that my student ID did not have a stamp on it for the year 2001 but in my heart I considered myself still a student as I still had an exam to pass .. the most important one, only after that exam the license is awarded. I haven’t been called in and I was given the visa. I respected it grew on a personal level and came back: trained as swimming instructor, lifeguard, substitute teacher exam passed, the TEOFL test with 293 points out of 300.

23rd of July 2002 -03 October 2002 J1 visa – camp counselor, came back on time: 25th of October 2002

This time I applied for the J1 visa as a employee of a private business, you’ll ask me why not a student like the previous attempts, the explanation comes very easily… the former girlfriend whom I traveled all around finished her university but she follow trough with her final exam and she became a graduate thus unable to apply as a student; I do not know who taught her that you can apply also as a employee of a private business but she did and she was successful, so did I . The funny thing was that the consular officer warned me that my 4th attempt if I will come again.. I will not get a visa. Based on my previous activity with the YMCA my sponsors decided that I should be awarded with a manager trainee internship/scholarship only to start a month later or so. I came back full of hope knowing that I stroke gold and that internship is going to be my path to better myself. The papers followed me in 2 weeks or so.

I went to the embassy on my birthday but I did not stress out that thing, as it was not appropriate, I was in a great mood but to my surprise the consular officer was very upset almost rude … I had no idea why.. Even if I speak a good English, words like misrepresentation of material facts did not ring a bell. But he told me that in the second year I left I wasn’t a student anymore as I was not attending full classes anymore. He denied my visa. I went back home studied the thing to the best of my abilities went to refusals and there I met the consular officer of the higher rank and in my defense I asked him to point out why would I respect every visa that I was given not one but three and misrepresent myself at the embassy. It made no point and so it seemed to the counselor officer as he stamped my passports with a canceled with no prejudice stamp and gave me a 214 b and strongly advised me not to come in the following couple of years for a visa.

I DID NOT (6 years) I got a master degree married a beautiful women, parented a 4 year old girl that I am really proud of, until guess what, I WON AT THE GREEN CARD LOTTERY

We went there.. Laid out the whole truth and in 3 visits to the embassy we got denied as me being the main applicant I was told that I still fall under the misrepresentation thing that I thought the last consular officer corrected.

I am not challenging the consular officer (vice consul) judgment. For him it was a case older than 6 year who was already tagged. I will also tell you that the consular officer pursue my case to the best of his abilities but he failed to consider what the law should address misrepresentation is defined as an act that in the end prejudices one part and benefits the other. If you give a visa to someone in this world you give him credit that he will act as a human being according to the law in that country; you do not award the visa. It is not a prize; it is a right of way for someone who asks it. Now I come and ask you, if you ask for it, and you get it, but to the best of your knowledge are still wrong, respect it, do you actually commit a crime that is punishable for life. I was kindly told that and I specifically asked the consular office to manage my self esteem and so he did. He answered all my questions but he calmly told me that I am stained for life and it will stay on my record for life.

I write this to tell you my story as all of you on this forum deserve to know it and to let the people know that even if you GO BY THE BOOK, apply THE LAW, but the LAW allows for one single injustice to take place … as I feel now … THE LAW IS CORRECTABLE.

I also wrote it to reassure my self esteem (inner self) that even the things turned out bad for my family I still have to power to move on. Which direction .. it remains to be seen.

When it happened the first time, the first visa denial … I was enraged … but that was just a childish reaction to something I did not understand at that point. Now I sit in disbelief and type, but being a father and a husband I do not have that luxury any more.

I have no juridical experience … I might be wrong and I stand correction from each of you who know better; I am an economist with a master degree in management of adult education but the experience I got through meeting people in US/Europe I value as twice the formal training I was given in regular universities

Vice consul A answer on a day of December was:

"Section 212(a)(6)©(1) - Applicant completed his university coursework in 2000 per grade transcripts. Per the SWT requirements in 2001 only post secondary students who were returning to resume full time classes could participate in SWT, effectively excluding final year students. The applicant did not disclose in his 2000 and 2001 SWT interview that he had completed all his coursework and only had his final license exam pending, which he completed in 2003. Had the Consular Officer known this, the applicant would not have been issued a J1 visa. As such the original 6C1 finding from 2003 still valid"

[luv2uallday 1]

DOES THE PUNISHMENT FIT THE “CRIME”???

(This is going to be a long post )

FACTS

My girlfriend applied through a student placement agency and lucky for her she got selected in May2000. I felt like I am going to lose her ( 7 years together) so I started to look for a sponsor myself in US, ending up in the same place like her as love was more powerful then money (I sent my resume to 2000 companies). I did not go through a recruiting company instead I did everything by my best knowledge and internet.

20th July 2000 – 19th November 2000 visa j1 - work and travel, came back in time on 15th of December 2000

I checked the IAP 66 and visa application with student and presented myself with a valid student card for 2000, final year of study, i was asked all the usual questions, what am I going to do with the very important final exam (license exam), i postponed it I smiled got the visa went to US and I felt there that I can do everything I put my mind into.

Came back in December and traveled a month for training in France Alps for a company with a very interesting business model on leisure time and activities. i got trained but I did not stay with them as the US mirage was more powerful

30th April 2001 – 12th September 2001 visa j1 - camp counselor, came back in time on 11th October 2001

This is a disputed visa for which I got denied a manager trainee visa in 2003. Please pay attention to what I am about to say:

I went to the embassy with the exact same papers like the ones in 2000 as it was a identical situation, I still had the final exam to pass and I considered that ... I will face the consular officer I will tell him that I am still a student ... final exam to pass ... and having nothing else to hide with a previous respected visa I will get another one. Now I know THAT I WOULD NOT HAVE GOT IT. Reason .. I was not a student anymore but a graduated student without license. It happened that in that day for the same visa like me the j1 there were hundreds of others in front of the embassy, not even a line was not possible that many were there, so the embassy officials decided to collect all the passports and visa applications and only to call in the few that needed explaining to do. I stood there waiting to be called in as I knew that my student ID did not have a stamp on it for the year 2001 but in my heart I considered myself still a student as I still had an exam to pass .. the most important one, only after that exam the license is awarded. I haven’t been called in and I was given the visa. I respected it grew on a personal level and came back: trained as swimming instructor, lifeguard, substitute teacher exam passed, the TEOFL test with 293 points out of 300.

23rd of July 2002 -03 October 2002 J1 visa – camp counselor, came back on time: 25th of October 2002

This time I applied for the J1 visa as a employee of a private business, you’ll ask me why not a student like the previous attempts, the explanation comes very easily… the former girlfriend whom I traveled all around finished her university but she follow trough with her final exam and she became a graduate thus unable to apply as a student; I do not know who taught her that you can apply also as a employee of a private business but she did and she was successful, so did I . The funny thing was that the consular officer warned me that my 4th attempt if I will come again.. I will not get a visa. Based on my previous activity with the YMCA my sponsors decided that I should be awarded with a manager trainee internship/scholarship only to start a month later or so. I came back full of hope knowing that I stroke gold and that internship is going to be my path to better myself. The papers followed me in 2 weeks or so.

I went to the embassy on my birthday but I did not stress out that thing, as it was not appropriate, I was in a great mood but to my surprise the consular officer was very upset almost rude … I had no idea why.. Even if I speak a good English, words like misrepresentation of material facts did not ring a bell. But he told me that in the second year I left I wasn’t a student anymore as I was not attending full classes anymore. He denied my visa. I went back home studied the thing to the best of my abilities went to refusals and there I met the consular officer of the higher rank and in my defense I asked him to point out why would I respect every visa that I was given not one but three and misrepresent myself at the embassy. It made no point and so it seemed to the counselor officer as he stamped my passports with a canceled with no prejudice stamp and gave me a 214 b and strongly advised me not to come in the following couple of years for a visa.

I DID NOT (6 years) I got a master degree married a beautiful women, parented a 4 year old girl that I am really proud of, until guess what, I WON AT THE GREEN CARD LOTTERY

We went there.. Laid out the whole truth and in 3 visits to the embassy we got denied as me being the main applicant I was told that I still fall under the misrepresentation thing that I thought the last consular officer corrected.

I am not challenging the consular officer (vice consul) judgment. For him it was a case older than 6 year who was already tagged. I will also tell you that the consular officer pursue my case to the best of his abilities but he failed to consider what the law should address misrepresentation is defined as an act that in the end prejudices one part and benefits the other. If you give a visa to someone in this world you give him credit that he will act as a human being according to the law in that country; you do not award the visa. It is not a prize; it is a right of way for someone who asks it. Now I come and ask you, if you ask for it, and you get it, but to the best of your knowledge are still wrong, respect it, do you actually commit a crime that is punishable for life. I was kindly told that and I specifically asked the consular office to manage my self esteem and so he did. He answered all my questions but he calmly told me that I am stained for life and it will stay on my record for life.

I write this to tell you my story as all of you on this forum deserve to know it and to let the people know that even if you GO BY THE BOOK, apply THE LAW, but the LAW allows for one single injustice to take place … as I feel now … THE LAW IS CORRECTABLE.

I also wrote it to reassure my self esteem (inner self) that even the things turned out bad for my family I still have to power to move on. Which direction .. it remains to be seen.

When it happened the first time, the first visa denial … I was enraged … but that was just a childish reaction to something I did not understand at that point. Now I sit in disbelief and type, but being a father and a husband I do not have that luxury any more.

I have no juridical experience … I might be wrong and I stand correction from each of you who know better; I am an economist with a master degree in management of adult education but the experience I got through meeting people in US/Europe I value as twice the formal training I was given in regular universities

Vice consul A answer on a day of December was:

"Section 212(a)(6)©(1) - Applicant completed his university coursework in 2000 per grade transcripts. Per the SWT requirements in 2001 only post secondary students who were returning to resume full time classes could participate in SWT, effectively excluding final year students. The applicant did not disclose in his 2000 and 2001 SWT interview that he had completed all his coursework and only had his final license exam pending, which he completed in 2003. Had the Consular Officer known this, the applicant would not have been issued a J1 visa. As such the original 6C1 finding from 2003 still valid"

Hello, to answer the question does the punishment fit the crime? and the answer is YES it does fit the crime OF WHAT I UNDERSTAND is you knowingly applied for benifets you knew were not entitled to playing the odds you could "slip through the system" Thus you committed fraud..... U have been through the immigration system alot. I'm sure and you know as I know it is the worst thing to do is to LIE to a consular be to him or in an application. You knew what you were doing and you knew what would happen if you got caught. Well now you are busted.

You know your problem of what i can sniff from your letter is you try to justify your actions whatever they may be as the right thing to do. Sir, the ends DO NOT justify the means and now look what happened...

Now on the visa fraud what I understand do not know for rock solid sure is it is a lifetime ban for which you need a qualifying relative (wife for example) in the states to apply for a "waiver" to overcome your fraud. What you need to do is get with a good attorney who is qualified in these matters and consult with him or her on what you can do.. if this truly is fraud u r convicted of then it will follow you no matter what visa you apply for or when you apply for it.

Sorry i sound mad but it is a shame that someone sooo intellegent as you soooo full of opportunity just took your card of aces and thrown them in the ####### shoot. I hope i'm wrong and I hope you can get this fixed and I hope you have learned from this situation. Good luck to you.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer nor claim to be one. Always seek advice from a professional on the proper course of action in your particular situation any advice given by us amatuers should be verified.

[prepelix 0]

DOES THE PUNISHMENT FIT THE “CRIME”???

I got your snaping point and I appreciate the fact that you replied that fast. yes it does seem NOW that I know a bit about immigrating to US ... 7 years ago I knew nothing ... I just got the visas ... and none of my presented papers were fake ... thus .. FRAUD ... does not apply.

More .. I do not try to excuse myself in front of the public .... NOW .. I know that I was MISSREPRESENTING myself ... and let me tell you it wasn't willfuly ... the papers I filled in did not have a provision for J1 name graduate without a license cause I would have checked it .. it stated employee teacher and 12 more I guess ... the closest being student. You'll tell me that NOT KNOWING THE LAW is not an excuse. I will have to agree with you on that with one provision and one only: the punishment should fit the crime. On a personal note .. I feel that being denied a manager trainee visa 6 years ago does that. I will tell you that being denied now not for me .. for my familly too ... I could live with that too. BUT LIFETIME ... it just makes me wonder.

to make it short: had no clue at that time of all the letters and provisions in the US immigration system ... I got the visa in 2001 by chance but I was true to US in every aspect of my previous and further visits. I will not appologize and excuse myself for something I've done inoccently. i did not search the gifted horse in the mouth in 2001 as I had no clue what too look for. I will pay the price though, as paying the price sets you free. If you're telling me lifetime ... I will have to disagree.

moreover ... just for you .. as I respect every opinion ... let's make it constructive and positive no matter what the ending

[luv2uallday 1]

I got your snaping point and I appreciate the fact that you replied that fast. yes it does seem NOW that I know a bit about immigrating to US ... 7 years ago I knew nothing ... I just got the visas ... and none of my presented papers were fake ... thus .. FRAUD ... does not apply.

More .. I do not try to excuse myself in front of the public .... NOW .. I know that I was MISSREPRESENTING myself ... and let me tell you it wasn't willfuly ... the papers I filled in did not have a provision for J1 name graduate without a license cause I would have checked it .. it stated employee teacher and 12 more I guess ... the closest being student. You'll tell me that NOT KNOWING THE LAW is not an excuse. I will have to agree with you on that with one provision and one only: the punishment should fit the crime. On a personal note .. I feel that being denied a manager trainee visa 6 years ago does that. I will tell you that being denied now not for me .. for my familly too ... I could live with that too. BUT LIFETIME ... it just makes me wonder.

to make it short: had no clue at that time of all the letters and provisions in the US immigration system ... I got the visa in 2001 by chance but I was true to US in every aspect of my previous and further visits. I will not appologize and excuse myself for something I've done inoccently. i did not search the gifted horse in the mouth in 2001 as I had no clue what too look for. I will pay the price though, as paying the price sets you free. If you're telling me lifetime ... I will have to disagree.

moreover ... just for you .. as I respect every opinion ... let's make it constructive and positive no matter what the ending

Yea i guess i was abit harsh on my reply my apologies.... I am a blunt person who says what i think and just say how it is I do not beleive in sugar coating anything and do not mistake my harshness for hatred or malice it just saddens me to see when this happens people seperated when they need not be or chances lost when need not be. But, sometimes I can be too blunt..... I make alot of enemies that way. To them i am mean and cruel. to me I was just being honest in my thinking and opinions . please accept my dearest apologies for my harsh tone......

u have a wife right? she's in the states right? or family in the states? well they can petition for you filing a waiver usually (i-601) your family in the states should seek a good qualified immigraton attorney for it so the waiver can be packaged right. and in due time you will be here..

On immigration law.... it is one OF THE MOST UNFORGIVING set of laws out there. U make one mistake and it can cost you dearly. in criminal law you can be forgiven for the smallest thing in immigration law they hold you on everything Personally i think it is unfair personally i think the laws should be changed but right now they are what they are whether i like them or not. An unfair standard. And at Times an cruel standard to hold to someone..

You WILL be with your family don't worry about that I will pray for you.. I have been seperated from my wife for 5 YEARS it took me pure determination to get her here with me. You can do it too I know how it feels it sucks bad. God bless. Again i apologize for my harsh tone.

[luv2uallday 1]

DOES THE PUNISHMENT FIT THE “CRIME”???

I got your snaping point and I appreciate the fact that you replied that fast. yes it does seem NOW that I know a bit about immigrating to US ... 7 years ago I knew nothing ... I just got the visas ... and none of my presented papers were fake ... thus .. FRAUD ... does not apply.

More .. I do not try to excuse myself in front of the public .... NOW .. I know that I was MISSREPRESENTING myself ... and let me tell you it wasn't willfuly ... the papers I filled in did not have a provision for J1 name graduate without a license cause I would have checked it .. it stated employee teacher and 12 more I guess ... the closest being student. You'll tell me that NOT KNOWING THE LAW is not an excuse. I will have to agree with you on that with one provision and one only: the punishment should fit the crime. On a personal note .. I feel that being denied a manager trainee visa 6 years ago does that. I will tell you that being denied now not for me .. for my familly too ... I could live with that too. BUT LIFETIME ... it just makes me wonder.

to make it short: had no clue at that time of all the letters and provisions in the US immigration system ... I got the visa in 2001 by chance but I was true to US in every aspect of my previous and further visits. I will not appologize and excuse myself for something I've done inoccently. i did not search the gifted horse in the mouth in 2001 as I had no clue what too look for. I will pay the price though, as paying the price sets you free. If you're telling me lifetime ... I will have to disagree.

moreover ... just for you .. as I respect every opinion ... let's make it constructive and positive no matter what the ending

Yea i guess i was abit harsh on my reply my apologies.... I am a blunt person who says what i think and just say how it is I do not beleive in sugar coating anything and do not mistake my harshness for hatred or malice it just saddens me to see when this happens people seperated when they need not be or chances lost when need not be. But, sometimes I can be too blunt..... I make alot of enemies that way. To them i am mean and cruel. to me I was just being honest in my thinking and opinions . please accept my dearest apologies for my harsh tone......

u have a wife right? she's in the states right? or family in the states? well they can petition for you filing a waiver usually (i-601) your family in the states should seek a good qualified immigraton attorney for it so the waiver can be packaged right. and in due time you will be here..

On immigration law.... it is one OF THE MOST UNFORGIVING set of laws out there. U make one mistake and it can cost you dearly. in criminal law you can be forgiven for the smallest thing in immigration law they hold you on everything Personally i think it is unfair personally i think the laws should be changed but right now they are what they are whether i like them or not. An unfair standard. And at Times an cruel standard to hold to someone..

You WILL be with your family don't worry about that I will pray for you.. I have been seperated from my wife for 5 YEARS it took me pure determination to get her here with me. You can do it too I know how it feels it sucks bad. God bless. Again i apologize for my harsh tone.