Guantanamo should stay open, waterboarding OK: Cheney

[pedroh 21]

So the Guantanamo Bay prison should be closed; and the detainees released without further delay?

they should get trials without further delay

why?

because some of them got detained in not very legal ways, and are held there undefintely, some of them still havent been linked to any terrorist activities, a trial is the least they deserve

Edited December 16, 2008 by pedroh

[mox 298]

None of us on the outside, really know the potential threats that these detainees might pose against the US. We cannot, simply "dispose of" the potential threats that the USG has clearly vetted against these people. As a citizen, I am not willing to take that risk. Why do you accept the risk?

We held a Canadian citizen for 5 years, based on completely false information. And even when it came to light that the guy had absolutely zero connection to terrorism, the Canadian government still had to push the Bush administration repeatedly to let him go.

Most detainees have been released, and so are presumably innocent, and yet all have been repeatedly tortured and held against their will for 5 years. Our government has shown over and over and over that there is either no evidence, fabricated evidence, or faulty intelligence.

After failure after failure after failure, why on earth are you still willing to accept that the Government knows something you don't about the detainees they haven't let go yet? What on earth makes you think that "oh yeah, they totally f***ed up on every thing else, but surely they must be holding on to these guys for a really good reason." Pfff. They had their chance, and they failed galactically. As I said, in our justice system when the police operate outside the law, then the alleged criminals go free. The government has been operating outside the law. They need to let those people go, and if that means some of the bad guys get let go too then maybe we should start looking to our leaders to be accountable as to why.

[pedroh 21]

None of us on the outside, really know the potential threats that these detainees might pose against the US. We cannot, simply "dispose of" the potential threats that the USG has clearly vetted against these people. As a citizen, I am not willing to take that risk. Why do you accept the risk?

We held a Canadian citizen for 5 years, based on completely false information. And even when it came to light that the guy had absolutely zero connection to terrorism, the Canadian government still had to push the Bush administration repeatedly to let him go.

Most detainees have been released, and so are presumably innocent, and yet all have been repeatedly tortured and held against their will for 5 years. Our government has shown over and over and over that there is either no evidence, fabricated evidence, or faulty intelligence.

After failure after failure after failure, why on earth are you still willing to accept that the Government knows something you don't about the detainees they haven't let go yet? What on earth makes you think that "oh yeah, they totally f***ed up on every thing else, but surely they must be holding on to these guys for a really good reason." Pfff. They had their chance, and they failed galactically. As I said, in our justice system when the police operate outside the law, then the alleged criminals go free. The government has been operating outside the law. They need to let those people go, and if that means some of the bad guys get let go too then maybe we should start looking to our leaders to be accountable as to why.

quoting a bushbot

"that's just an isolated event... since guantamo was established we haven't had another terrorist attack" and all the blablabla..

I agree.. there's way more than a few detainees with no links at all to terrorism.. they do deserve a fair trail, and at least a freakin apology ffs

[William33 110]

None of us on the outside, really know the potential threats that these detainees might pose against the US. We cannot, simply "dispose of" the potential threats that the USG has clearly vetted against these people. As a citizen, I am not willing to take that risk. Why do you accept the risk?

We held a Canadian citizen for 5 years, based on completely false information. And even when it came to light that the guy had absolutely zero connection to terrorism, the Canadian government still had to push the Bush administration repeatedly to let him go.

Most detainees have been released, and so are presumably innocent, and yet all have been repeatedly tortured and held against their will for 5 years. Our government has shown over and over and over that there is either no evidence, fabricated evidence, or faulty intelligence.

After failure after failure after failure, why on earth are you still willing to accept that the Government knows something you don't about the detainees they haven't let go yet? What on earth makes you think that "oh yeah, they totally f***ed up on every thing else, but surely they must be holding on to these guys for a really good reason." Pfff. They had their chance, and they failed galactically. As I said, in our justice system when the police operate outside the law, then the alleged criminals go free. The government has been operating outside the law. They need to let those people go, and if that means some of the bad guys get let go too then maybe we should start looking to our leaders to be accountable as to why.

I agree that "some" are held without just cause, but having worked for the USG overseas, I rest assured that most of the 500 current detainees are held with significant reason.

Problem: Most of the Intelligence connecting these people with terrorism cannot be successfully tried in US courts.

Why: Intelligence sources and methods are primary evidence. The release of this evidence would compromise USG collection sources and methods.

I am good with that.

[mox 298]

I agree.. there's way more than a few detainees with no links at all to terrorism.. they do deserve a fair trail, and at least a freakin apology ffs

A "fair trial" is a joke at this point. Not a single detainee could ever expect a fair trial. The evidence to hold them was fabricated, so there's no reason to believe that the evidence to try them wouldn't be fabricated either. The only way to be sure is to free them and start over.

[Ban Hammer 13,364]

Problem: Most of the Intelligence connecting these people with terrorism cannot be successfully tried in US courts.

Why: Intelligence sources and methods are primary evidence. The release of this evidence would compromise USG collection sources and methods.

I am good with that.

ditto

[mox 298]

I agree that "some" are held without just cause, but having worked for the USG overseas, I rest assured that most of the 500 current detainees are held with significant reason.

I also have worked overseas for the USG. In the Middle East. You may be able to assure me that the detainees are held with a "signifigant reason" but you cannot assure me that they are held for a valid and legal reason.

Problem: Most of the Intelligence connecting these people with terrorism cannot be successfully tried in US courts.

Why: Intelligence sources and methods are primary evidence. The release of this evidence would compromise USG collection sources and methods.

I am good with that.

Of course you're good with that. Your husband or child or father wasn't picked up off the street, to be completely disappeared with no information at all as to why or what happened to him. Your husband or child or father hasn't been tortured for 5 years with no charges leveled against him. You haven't lived with uncertainty, doubt, fear, and the heartache of not knowing what happened or if you will ever see your loved one again. Your family has never been subject to completely arbitrary detention. You're good with it because you don't have to think about it. You just accept that your government knows best and live a normal life. Cool for you. Sucks for people on the other end of that stick.

Edited December 16, 2008 by mox

[William33 110]

I agree that "some" are held without just cause, but having worked for the USG overseas, I rest assured that most of the 500 current detainees are held with significant reason.

I also have worked overseas for the USG. In the Middle East. You may be able to assure me that the detainees are held with a "signifigant reason" but you cannot assure me that they are held for a valid and legal reason.

Problem: Most of the Intelligence connecting these people with terrorism cannot be successfully tried in US courts.

Why: Intelligence sources and methods are primary evidence. The release of this evidence would compromise USG collection sources and methods.

I am good with that.

Of course you're good with that. Your husband or child or father wasn't picked up off the street, to be completely disappeared with no information at all as to why or what happened to him. Your husband or child or father hasn't been tortured for 5 years with no charges leveled against him. You haven't lived with uncertainty, doubt, fear, and the heartache of not knowing what happened or if you will ever see your loved one again. Your family has never been subject to completely arbitrary detention. You're good with it because you don't have to think about it. You just accept that your government knows best and live a normal life. Cool for you. Sucks for people on the other end of that stick.

Not sure what your job was overseas, but it was obviously not connected with Intelligence collection. If it was, you would have reason to support this agenda.

[mox 298]

Not sure what your job was overseas, but it was obviously not connected with Intelligence collection. If it was, you would have reason to support this agenda.

It doesn't matter what capacity I was in, that's a logical fallacy designed to shut down an argument. The facts are that our government has lied to us repeatedly over the last 5 years, and now you are asking me to believe that in this one case they are finally telling the truth, and oh sorry but if you weren't in intelligence you'll just have to take it at face value. If this government had any credibility whatsoever I'd be more inclined to agree with you. But how many failures do they get before we say enough is enough? For me they crossed the line a long time ago. The government is FOR the people, not the other way around.

EDIT: And I really didn't mean to sound as sarcastic as I think I came across. I don't believe you're arguing dishonestly, but it's an argument I've heard over and over from a government that I ceased believing in right about the time our President landed on the deck of a carrier in the most ridiculous show of propaganda I've ever seen.

Edited December 16, 2008 by mox

[William33 110]

Not sure what your job was overseas, but it was obviously not connected with Intelligence collection. If it was, you would have reason to support this agenda.

It doesn't matter what capacity I was in, that's a logical fallacy designed to shut down an argument. The facts are that our government has lied to us repeatedly over the last 5 years, and now you are asking me to believe that in this one case they are finally telling the truth, and oh sorry but if you weren't in intelligence you'll just have to take it at face value. If this government had any credibility whatsoever I'd be more inclined to agree with you. But how many failures do they get before we say enough is enough? For me they crossed the line a long time ago. The government is FOR the people, not the other way around.

EDIT: And I really didn't mean to sound as sarcastic as I think I came across. I don't believe you're arguing dishonestly, but it's an argument I've heard over and over from a government that I ceased believing in right about the time our President landed on the deck of a carrier in the most ridiculous show of propaganda I've ever seen.

Dude, I am not running for office here. I am simply stating the facts on the basis of my relevant experience. If that is not good enough, then listen to what you have been reading in the press.

I only offer a perspective that may not be available to the sheep.

[Amby 490]

Are you surprised? This comes from the man who hunts people

[mox 298]

Dude, I am not running for office here. I am simply stating the facts on the basis of my relevant experience. If that is not good enough, then listen to what you have been reading in the press.

I only offer a perspective that may not be available to the sheep.

Hehe...so it sounds like you eat your breakfast 300 yards from 4000 terrorists who are trained to kill you, and what you want is for me to stand there in my faggoty white uniform and with my Harvard mouth extend you some f***ing courtesy, because I can't handle the truth!

The problem is that I'm sure you know something the rest of us "sheep" don't know, but your perspective isn't backed by anything tangible. I'm not calling you a liar, but if every argument could be settled by "I know stuff you can't possibly know," then the internet we know and love would cease to exist.

Your point seems to be this: The guys currently in Gitmo really really really belong there, trust me on this.

My point is this: the means by which we apprehended the vast majority of the Gitmo detainees was illegal. Furthermore, the methods used to attempt to extract information from these detainees were illegal. By every standard in the book, we tortured these people. Anything we got from these people was obtained illegally, therefore we need to let them go.

Your argument and my argument are not mutually exclusive. I have no doubt there are people in Gitmo who are very VERY bad people. But I also know that our criminal justice system lets very VERY bad people back out on the streets all the time because the people we trusted to put them behind bars acted in ways counter to established criminal justice procedures. This is how our justice system works. It is imperfect, but it has served us very well for the last 231 years. Gitmo is a hopeless clusterf***. It needs to be closed, and the detainees need to be released, because there is ZERO hope for justice to ever be served out of that mess.

[William33 110]

Dude, I am not running for office here. I am simply stating the facts on the basis of my relevant experience. If that is not good enough, then listen to what you have been reading in the press.

I only offer a perspective that may not be available to the sheep.

Hehe...so it sounds like you eat your breakfast 300 yards from 4000 terrorists who are trained to kill you, and what you want is for me to stand there in my faggoty white uniform and with my Harvard mouth extend you some f***ing courtesy, because I can't handle the truth!

The problem is that I'm sure you know something the rest of us "sheep" don't know, but your perspective isn't backed by anything tangible. I'm not calling you a liar, but if every argument could be settled by "I know stuff you can't possibly know," then the internet we know and love would cease to exist.

Your point seems to be this: The guys currently in Gitmo really really really belong there, trust me on this.

My point is this: the means by which we apprehended the vast majority of the Gitmo detainees was illegal. Furthermore, the methods used to attempt to extract information from these detainees were illegal. By every standard in the book, we tortured these people. Anything we got from these people was obtained illegally, therefore we need to let them go.

Your argument and my argument are not mutually exclusive. I have no doubt there are people in Gitmo who are very VERY bad people. But I also know that our criminal justice system lets very VERY bad people back out on the streets all the time because the people we trusted to put them behind bars acted in ways counter to established criminal justice procedures. This is how our justice system works. It is imperfect, but it has served us very well for the last 231 years. Gitmo is a hopeless clusterf***. It needs to be closed, and the detainees need to be released, because there is ZERO hope for justice to ever be served out of that mess.

Whatever dude.... Clearly, you did not serve overseas for the USG, I believe you were a contractor. Enough said.

[Ban Hammer 13,364]

The problem is that I'm sure you know something the rest of us "sheep" don't know, but your perspective isn't backed by anything tangible. I'm not calling you a liar, but if every argument could be settled by "I know stuff you can't possibly know," then the internet we know and love would cease to exist.

mox, some of us have signed non-disclosure forms, that could be why william isn't giving you anything "tangible" as it would land william in prison for disclosure to a non-authorized individual.

[mox 298]

Whatever dude.... Clearly, you did not serve overseas for the USG, I believe you were a contractor. Enough said.

Well you are wrong about my experience, while at the same time trying to create some mysterious aura around your own in place of a rational argument.

I tried to put forward a rational argument, I tried to keep it light, and you put together a "whatever dude." So...whatever dude.