New York immigrant dead in apparent hate crime

[HAL 9000 96]

Hate crime legislation is targeted to combat the motive authorship of a hate crime.

Much like the death penalty is legislated to combat the motive authorship of murder.

You, as a white American, are not subject to having a cross burned in your front yard. Enough said.

That's what they want you to think. The legislation is created to favor minority groups, which are strong among Democrats. Just the way that Republicans pander to corporations. It's no different.

It creates an inequality in the law, which under the equal protection clause, 14th amendment, is unconstitutional.

Regardless of how you or I feel about a cross burning on someone's property, regardless of the victim, the action is still arson, and perhaps damage to property.

Just because a minority(hate group) wishes to hate another group, that doesn't give the State any right to come in and create an inequality in an attempt to engineer our society. It doesn't work. It never will.

Yeah like I told you, I'm not disagreeing that the nature of the crime should be punished any differently... but most definitely the existence of inequalities that create the hate as a motivating factor is enough indeed- at least in my opinion, and in the opinion of what I think is a majority of the constituencies around the country- minority groups being targeted and all other segments of the population... that once the inequalities cease to exist completely, then perhaps the stupidity that leads to the motives will also diminish to a point that can be considered nonexistent.

Then we can do away with these laws. As for constitutionality and the 14th Amendment... its open definitely to whatever interpretation you may want to give it. Much like Amendments are added to include all kinds of clauses permitting and outlawing all kinds of behavior.

Don't know how you come to that conclusion about pandering and more so legislative intent... but whatever. With this kind of thing its not really pandering to write laws that promote a civil, orderly society devoid of stupid divisiveness that most arguably has a root in very real history...

Lucky for all involved, although we do see waxing and waning of these kinds of hate-fueled crimes, I am of the thinking that they are slowly less and less (minus the increased reporting factor as time goes by) each year. Meaning one day, these laws will be obsolete.

I really despise the democracy process. The rights of the minority are strong-armed out by the wills of the majority. What a horrible non-sense procedure, especially when dealing with rights.

We all should be equal under the law, even if we are not seen as equal amongst our peers. This statement can be universally applied, to Affirmative Action, gay marriage, and any other law applied designed to limit the rights of others, or grant additional rights to groups in an attempt to equalize society. We are not an engineerable piece of machinery, we are a living society.

You cannot force people with prejudiced minds to change, they can and will only change on their own. Unjust favoritism laws only punish those with non-prejudiced minds. It's an act of futility that only divides us more as a society.

Sure we can 'force' people to change. I mean that figuratively. Every generation the proportion of idiots that hate are supposedly less. Hence, there won't be a need someday for hate crime laws since there won't be morons out there to perpetrate crimes against other human beings.

We SHOULD be all equal under the law- but that never prevented real historical cases of discrimination, hate, and motives that necessitated these laws to begin with, ergo, before these laws even existed.

But what if a white person hit another white person? It's still unjust. We are divided into groups not so much because it is human nature, but because our societal engineer's new laws, in trying to bring us together, has further separated us.

Totally beg to differ. US society circa 2008 is much more cohesive and tolerant of itself than it was 50 years ago- before hate crime laws were enacted.

I don't think you could be more wrong there.

There are lots of people from every "group" who can't stand their own group.. err at least their views would be considered offensive if they did not have a free pass to speak them.

Again, there is too much mind-reading going on to judge who is doing the hating.

White guy in a bar bumps shoulders with a Black guy, if he then calls him a N_GGER before shooting him... is that a hate crime?

What if the same exact exchange took place between two Black guys?

Its easy for some to mistake context with ignorance.

[rebeccajo 14]

.....We all should be equal under the law, even if we are not seen as equal amongst our peers. This statement can be universally applied, to Affirmative Action, gay marriage, and any other law applied designed to limit the rights of others, or grant additional rights to groups in an attempt to equalize society. We are not an engineerable piece of machinery, we are a living society.

You cannot force people with prejudiced minds to change, they can and will only change on their own. Unjust favoritism laws only punish those with non-prejudiced minds. It's an act of futility that only divides us more as a society.

We should be. But sometimes it happens we aren't.

Matt, I agree with you that you can't force people with prejudiced minds to change. This is only my opinion, but I think sometimes laws are crafted to 'disable' any authority, power or influence 'prejudiced' persons - those generations - pass on from this earth.

In a way, those laws are an experiment in engineering society. The question then, I would ponder, is whether taking so drastic a measure will benefit society as a whole. Perhaps in those instances only time does tell.

[Danno 1,228]

You, as a white American, are not subject to having a cross burned in your front yard. Enough said.

Lets get real, Cross burnings are so rare... they get national attention when one happens.

Now on the other hand; there are hundreds (maybe more) communities or areas that white people would never venture into, especially at night because they know the color of their skin would make them a marked target.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

You, as a white American, are not subject to having a cross burned in your front yard. Enough said.

Lets get real, Cross burnings are so rare... they get national attention when one happens.

Now on the other hand; there are hundreds (maybe more) communities or areas that white people would never venture into, especially at night because they know the color of their skin would make them a marked target.

And yet most of the people killed in those areas are blacks (or hispanics).

[HAL 9000 96]

You, as a white American, are not subject to having a cross burned in your front yard. Enough said.

Lets get real, Cross burnings are so rare... they get national attention when one happens.

Now on the other hand; there are hundreds (maybe more) communities or areas that white people would never venture into, especially at night because they know the color of their skin would make them a marked target.

And-I-wonder-why.

Same thing happened in the not too distant past and continues to happen now in some places just like you describe for the opposite skin color. Difference is, instead of going out with a rope they just call 9-11.

[Danno 1,228]

You, as a white American, are not subject to having a cross burned in your front yard. Enough said.

Lets get real, Cross burnings are so rare... they get national attention when one happens.

Now on the other hand; there are hundreds (maybe more) communities or areas that white people would never venture into, especially at night because they know the color of their skin would make them a marked target.

And-I-wonder-why.

Same thing happened in the not too distant past and continues to happen now in some places just like you describe for the opposite skin color. Difference is, instead of going out with a rope they just call 9-11.

Oh really, maybe you can name a few of those places where those with Darker complexion would be in danger every night of the week?

[Danno 1,228]

You, as a white American, are not subject to having a cross burned in your front yard. Enough said.

Lets get real, Cross burnings are so rare... they get national attention when one happens.

Now on the other hand; there are hundreds (maybe more) communities or areas that white people would never venture into, especially at night because they know the color of their skin would make them a marked target.

And yet most of the people killed in those areas are blacks (or hispanics).

..... because most sane white folk (as well as pizza delivery) know better than to go there.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

You, as a white American, are not subject to having a cross burned in your front yard. Enough said.

Lets get real, Cross burnings are so rare... they get national attention when one happens.

Now on the other hand; there are hundreds (maybe more) communities or areas that white people would never venture into, especially at night because they know the color of their skin would make them a marked target.

And yet most of the people killed in those areas are blacks (or hispanics).

..... because most sane white folk (as well as pizza delivery) know better than to go there.

Ummm... Why would they go there? Its a self-segregated community, in much the same way that the suburbs are. Its also why many chain businesses (other than fast food) don't generally set up there. Just miles and miles of dilapidated residential districts. If you don't live there - you have no reason to visit those areas, let alone because you might fear for your safety.

[mRx 16]

I really despise the democracy process. The rights of the minority are strong-armed out by the wills of the majority. What a horrible non-sense procedure, especially when dealing with rights.

We all should be equal under the law, even if we are not seen as equal amongst our peers. This statement can be universally applied, to Affirmative Action, gay marriage, and any other law applied designed to limit the rights of others, or grant additional rights to groups in an attempt to equalize society. We are not an engineerable piece of machinery, we are a living society.

You cannot force people with prejudiced minds to change, they can and will only change on their own. Unjust favoritism laws only punish those with non-prejudiced minds. It's an act of futility that only divides us more as a society.

Sure we can 'force' people to change. I mean that figuratively. Every generation the proportion of idiots that hate are supposedly less. Hence, there won't be a need someday for hate crime laws since there won't be morons out there to perpetrate crimes against other human beings.

Hate crime laws do nothing to stop hate, in fact, they only hurt those made to feel that their pain isn't equal to that of the more protected group, which is what I've been saying this entire thread.

Generations haven't become more tolerant because of laws, they have done so through a social evolution absent of such favoring laws. If anything, it's laws that have created much of the discrimination that exists today. Look at the Jim Crow laws.

Note: italics added for emphasis; not trying to be pompous.

[HAL 9000 96]

You, as a white American, are not subject to having a cross burned in your front yard. Enough said.

Lets get real, Cross burnings are so rare... they get national attention when one happens.

Now on the other hand; there are hundreds (maybe more) communities or areas that white people would never venture into, especially at night because they know the color of their skin would make them a marked target.

And-I-wonder-why.

Same thing happened in the not too distant past and continues to happen now in some places just like you describe for the opposite skin color. Difference is, instead of going out with a rope they just call 9-11.

Oh really, maybe you can name a few of those places where those with Darker complexion would be in danger every night of the week?

What metro area do you live in? (So I can Google for you)

You, as a white American, are not subject to having a cross burned in your front yard. Enough said.

Lets get real, Cross burnings are so rare... they get national attention when one happens.

Now on the other hand; there are hundreds (maybe more) communities or areas that white people would never venture into, especially at night because they know the color of their skin would make them a marked target.

And yet most of the people killed in those areas are blacks (or hispanics).

..... because most sane white folk (as well as pizza delivery) know better than to go there.

Ummm... Why would they go there? Its a self-segregated community, in much the same way that the suburbs are. Its also why many chain businesses (other than fast food) don't generally set up there. Just miles and miles of dilapidated residential districts. If you don't live there - you have no reason to visit those areas, let alone because you might fear for your safety.

Well there is also the stereotypical 'hood' that Danno may be commenting on.

He fails to realize that it is also stereotypical for some of these 'hoods' to be frequented by white suburbanites to purchase certain illegal substances.

[HAL 9000 96]

I really despise the democracy process. The rights of the minority are strong-armed out by the wills of the majority. What a horrible non-sense procedure, especially when dealing with rights.

We all should be equal under the law, even if we are not seen as equal amongst our peers. This statement can be universally applied, to Affirmative Action, gay marriage, and any other law applied designed to limit the rights of others, or grant additional rights to groups in an attempt to equalize society. We are not an engineerable piece of machinery, we are a living society.

You cannot force people with prejudiced minds to change, they can and will only change on their own. Unjust favoritism laws only punish those with non-prejudiced minds. It's an act of futility that only divides us more as a society.

Sure we can 'force' people to change. I mean that figuratively. Every generation the proportion of idiots that hate are supposedly less. Hence, there won't be a need someday for hate crime laws since there won't be morons out there to perpetrate crimes against other human beings.

Hate crime laws do nothing to stop hate, in fact, they only hurt those made to feel that their pain isn't equal to that of the more protected group, which is what I've been saying this entire thread.

Generations haven't become more tolerant because of laws, they have done so through a social evolution absent of such favoring laws. If anything, it's laws that have created much of the discrimination that exists today. Look at the Jim Crow laws.

Note: italics added for emphasis; not trying to be pompous.

I could definitely agree with you in that they do nothing to prevent hate crimes. In fact, much like some Affirmative Action precedents, it may even be bringing out more racism and hate from members of the 'majority' population that feel they are now being singled out because of past injustices committed against minorities.

And I could also agree with you in that the law is separate of the social evolution happening in the nation. Dude, you're on a roll and notice we agree more on the issue than anything else. Problem is-

What do you do to combat hate?

From the legal and punitive point of view that is.

[Danno 1,228]

You, as a white American, are not subject to having a cross burned in your front yard. Enough said.

Lets get real, Cross burnings are so rare... they get national attention when one happens.

Now on the other hand; there are hundreds (maybe more) communities or areas that white people would never venture into, especially at night because they know the color of their skin would make them a marked target.

And yet most of the people killed in those areas are blacks (or hispanics).

..... because most sane white folk (as well as pizza delivery) know better than to go there.

Ummm... Why would they go there? Its a self-segregated community, in much the same way that the suburbs are. Its also why many chain businesses (other than fast food) don't generally set up there. Just miles and miles of dilapidated residential districts. If you don't live there - you have no reason to visit those areas, let alone because you might fear for your safety.

Wow, I thought this view point was a thing of the past.

Even if people do choose to self segregate people should not be targeted for crime based on their skin color... if they are on public property.

Not long ago we had a couple who made the mistake of taking the wrong exit to ask directions.

I suppose signs along the interstate should be posted so others are not similar victims?

[HAL 9000 96]

You, as a white American, are not subject to having a cross burned in your front yard. Enough said.

Lets get real, Cross burnings are so rare... they get national attention when one happens.

Now on the other hand; there are hundreds (maybe more) communities or areas that white people would never venture into, especially at night because they know the color of their skin would make them a marked target.

And yet most of the people killed in those areas are blacks (or hispanics).

..... because most sane white folk (as well as pizza delivery) know better than to go there.

Ummm... Why would they go there? Its a self-segregated community, in much the same way that the suburbs are. Its also why many chain businesses (other than fast food) don't generally set up there. Just miles and miles of dilapidated residential districts. If you don't live there - you have no reason to visit those areas, let alone because you might fear for your safety.

Wow, I thought this view point was a thing of the past.

Even if people do choose to self segregate people should not be targeted for crime based on their skin color... if they are on public property.

Not long ago we had a couple who made the mistake of taking the wrong exit to ask directions.

I suppose signs along the interstate should be posted so others are not similar victims?

Well I enter all kinds of neighborhoods all the time and have yet to encounter any race-related problems (except when I'm in a group of Latinos speaking Spanish in some 'White' neighborhoods and the dirty stares begin).

[Danno 1,228]

Hal 9000 again, you proved your point.

[HAL 9000 96]

Hal 9000 again, you proved your point.

Still waiting on that metro area you live in. Charlotte?

Except I won't look at Google. We can see what the FBI has.