Spying on pacifists, environmentalists and nuns

[SpiritAlight 1]

I must confess I only read some of the first post...then my blood stated boiling.

I used to belong to all kinds of groups in Vancouver.

I had already found out about such infiltrations... to the extent that one group in Seattle complained how one of their members was trying to incite riots; always acting aggressively and trying to provoke violent demonstrations. His over-enthusiastic behaviour became suspect (no shite) and the non-violent peaceful parents and grandparents that has said no one would get kicked out of the group decided to investigate. Yup, he worked for the police.

Agents provocateurs.

Spies: members of the law paid for by us all to spy on us: the peace-creators.

They are everywhere.

I will never forget all the peace marches and such I used to attend:

police by the sidelines videotaping people's faces.

Why?

Do they have the "manpower" to catalogue each and every protester?

Wow.

I videotaped one them videotaping and was quickly asked to cease and desist.

Good thing they didn't break my camera.

[William33 110]

The typical Police Officer is not trained in counter-terrorism tactics. In some unique instances, yes.

I find it highly inprobable that a Maryland State Trooper (tasked with highway crimes - speeding/drug trafficking) has this training at any competent level.

If this were an FBI agent or certain other groups of Law Enforcement, I would believe it.

This is a "wanna-be" at best.

[HAL 9000 96]

I must confess I only read some of the first post...then my blood stated boiling.

I used to belong to all kinds of groups in Vancouver.

I had already found out about such infiltrations... to the extent that one group in Seattle complained how one of their members was trying to incite riots; always acting aggressively and trying to provoke violent demonstrations. His over-enthusiastic behaviour became suspect (no shite) and the non-violent peaceful parents and grandparents that has said no one would get kicked out of the group decided to investigate. Yup, he worked for the police.

Agents provocateurs.

Spies: members of the law paid for by us all to spy on us: the peace-creators.

They are everywhere.

I will never forget all the peace marches and such I used to attend:

police by the sidelines videotaping people's faces.

Why?

Do they have the "manpower" to catalogue each and every protester?

Wow.

I videotaped one them videotaping and was quickly asked to cease and desist.

Good thing they didn't break my camera.

At least look at it in another way. Head on over to CPD HQ and demand, under the Freedom of Information Act, a copy of you marching.

More than anything, its nothing more than psychological surveillance. Those cameras could even have been devoid of sufficient memory to record at all.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It'll be interesting to see if any of these post 9-11 powers get reversed once Obama takes office. It would certainly be a great idea to re visit the whole patriot act at some time in the near future.

With the new Democrats in Congress, you can count on it.

I kind of doubt it to be honest. Government tends to retain the powers that are granted to it.

[HAL 9000 96]

The FBI ran Cointelpro long enough to know how to lend agent provocateurs into social justice movements just enough to undermine them.

Real video surveillance is done from a vantage point mostly unknown to participants in protests, rallies, etc. Even though CPD does have its own collection of footage, not just the Federal agencies.

[William33 110]

The FBI ran Cointelpro long enough to know how to lend agent provocateurs into social justice movements just enough to undermine them.

Real video surveillance is done from a vantage point mostly unknown to participants in protests, rallies, etc. Even though CPD does have its own collection of footage, not just the Federal agencies.

Um, Hal....There is video everywhere, not just the "situation specific" sort. Real intel is HUMINT, also known as collection of information from people. Sources, methods and identities.

[Danno 1,228]

Now is it that they infiltrate "your" groups that have some upset over this or that they infiltrate "any group"?

I heard few objections when the Gov. spied on some of these Muslim groups or when they infiltrated the Klan or militias but now that they are involved in other legal groups, suddenly it's wrong?

[HAL 9000 96]

The FBI ran Cointelpro long enough to know how to lend agent provocateurs into social justice movements just enough to undermine them.

Real video surveillance is done from a vantage point mostly unknown to participants in protests, rallies, etc. Even though CPD does have its own collection of footage, not just the Federal agencies.

Um, Hal....There is video everywhere, not just the "situation specific" sort. Real intel is HUMINT, also known as collection of information from people. Sources, methods and identities.

I was going on Spirit's intentional gathering- not the plethora of sources that can be tapped on a continual basis. Stuff that teeter-tatters FISA without actually going over the line altogether.

You should see the City of Chicago's video surveillance center. Lots of, um... human intel integration going on there.

[HAL 9000 96]

Now is it that they infiltrate "your" groups that have some upset over this or that they infiltrate "any group"?

I heard few objections when the Gov. spied on some of these Muslim groups or when they infiltrated the Klan or militias but now that they are involved in other legal groups, suddenly it's wrong?

When those 'other' groups (and I'm not talking about domestic groups with ties to foreign causes) have a history of hate and advocacy of hate towards segments of the domestic population, your devil's advocacy will make sense. Sure, I am sure equality and social justice just don't deserve respect for some and its inclusion into the national dialogue is always open to certain levels of interpretation.

[William33 110]

The FBI ran Cointelpro long enough to know how to lend agent provocateurs into social justice movements just enough to undermine them.

Real video surveillance is done from a vantage point mostly unknown to participants in protests, rallies, etc. Even though CPD does have its own collection of footage, not just the Federal agencies.

Um, Hal....There is video everywhere, not just the "situation specific" sort. Real intel is HUMINT, also known as collection of information from people. Sources, methods and identities.

I was going on Spirit's intentional gathering- not the plethora of sources that can be tapped on a continual basis. Stuff that teeter-tatters FISA without actually going over the line altogether.

You should see the City of Chicago's video surveillance center. Lots of, um... human intel integration going on there.

I understand, yet direct surveillance happens everyday. Don't be mislead by legislation, as there are always "loopholes" allowing it.

However, a surveillance center, does not achieve Human Intelligence. This is derived from infiltration by people, that know how to manipulate other people to elicit information.

Edited December 9, 2008 by William33

[HAL 9000 96]

The FBI ran Cointelpro long enough to know how to lend agent provocateurs into social justice movements just enough to undermine them.

Real video surveillance is done from a vantage point mostly unknown to participants in protests, rallies, etc. Even though CPD does have its own collection of footage, not just the Federal agencies.

Um, Hal....There is video everywhere, not just the "situation specific" sort. Real intel is HUMINT, also known as collection of information from people. Sources, methods and identities.

I was going on Spirit's intentional gathering- not the plethora of sources that can be tapped on a continual basis. Stuff that teeter-tatters FISA without actually going over the line altogether.

You should see the City of Chicago's video surveillance center. Lots of, um... human intel integration going on there.

I understand, yet direct surveillance happens everyday. Don't be mislead by legislation, as there are always "loopholes" allowing it.

However, a surveillance center, does not achieve Human Intelligence. This is derived from infiltration by people, that know how to manipulate other people to elicit information.

Of course. FISA allows certain levels of domestic surveillance.

Nor am I defending the abolishment of infiltration. Doing so would be a major mistake when actually needed.

Just placing asset value on particular situations in cases much like those described by Spirit and those where the aim is not in merely collecting information but a more nefarious, interfering agenda that has only one goal: undermining those that are inflitrated and whose agenda is nothing more than that which represents positive change in any social setting. Sure- open to particular interpretation no matter how clear and absolute the values argued are. Which makes it extremely ironic the logic used to defend some of those infiltration campaigns using the same rhetoric.

[William33 110]

The FBI ran Cointelpro long enough to know how to lend agent provocateurs into social justice movements just enough to undermine them.

Real video surveillance is done from a vantage point mostly unknown to participants in protests, rallies, etc. Even though CPD does have its own collection of footage, not just the Federal agencies.

Um, Hal....There is video everywhere, not just the "situation specific" sort. Real intel is HUMINT, also known as collection of information from people. Sources, methods and identities.

I was going on Spirit's intentional gathering- not the plethora of sources that can be tapped on a continual basis. Stuff that teeter-tatters FISA without actually going over the line altogether.

You should see the City of Chicago's video surveillance center. Lots of, um... human intel integration going on there.

I understand, yet direct surveillance happens everyday. Don't be mislead by legislation, as there are always "loopholes" allowing it.

However, a surveillance center, does not achieve Human Intelligence. This is derived from infiltration by people, that know how to manipulate other people to elicit information.

Of course. FISA allows certain levels of domestic surveillance.

Nor am I defending the abolishment of infiltration. Doing so would be a major mistake when actually needed.

Just placing asset value on particular situations in cases much like those described by Spirit and those where the aim is not in merely collecting information but a more nefarious, interfering agenda that has only one goal: undermining those that are inflitrated and whose agenda is nothing more than that which represents positive change in any social setting. Sure- open to particular interpretation no matter how clear and absolute the values argued are. Which makes it extremely ironic the logic used to defend some of those infiltration campaigns using the same rhetoric.

I sorta got your point. Allow me to paraphrase: You agree with Domestic Counter-Terrorist surveillance in any form, so long as it does not punish (or infringe upon the rights of those that protest), yet achieves the US objective of halting terrorism either Domestic or International?

[HAL 9000 96]

Well, 'any form' as long as it doesn't punish, infringe, or otherwise reduce the democratic principles and civil and human rights of Americans when the surveillance is domestic is pretty much self-descriptive. No dirty tactics is always a good way of avoiding conflicts with our own legal system or the interpretation of our ideals.

As for international... there needs to be a better system of adhering to standards that are not open to much interpretation but its obvious that cookie varies by oven.