Should Someone Who Lies About Their Education Be Fired?

[Nessa 23]

i could get it evaluated and i'would not even be equivalent to a year here. the classes are completely different, you guys don't even have a degree called publicidade e propaganda. there's marketing, but that wasn't exaclty what i did, i could've done marketing i had the option.

it's a college degree to work in advertising agencies pretty much. there's not even a translation for the word propaganda, how can i explain to my boss that it is a word used to describe advertising without having them thinking i'm a nazi?

Instead of assuming things, get it evaluated. The eval agencies are equipped to translate Brazilian credentials into their American equivalents.

i don't think it's worth wasting the time and money if I know that I could never get it to be equivalent to 4 years. That's not assuming, that's quite obvious. I know I won't qualify for jobs that require 4 years, I'm aware of that, i'll live with that.

Still, I consider myself someone who has 4 years college education, I have the knowledge and if that's not good for them, oh well.

Edited December 6, 2008 by Nessa

[Ling Ling 22]

how about my case? I have 4 years of college, if i tell my employer that and that's a requirement for my job and they hire me based on my word, am I lying becase those 4 years are wortheless in the States? therefore I have no college degree valid for that job position?

Not at all. You do have 4 years of college. It would only be a lie if they specifically asked for an accredited college in the USA.

However in this case, were the applicant to know the difference between 4 years of college and a US college degree,

then they have taken advantage of the situation, not fully disclosed their education, and essentially embellished a truth.

To some here, that is in fact a lie, and ALWAYS grounds for termination.

I would suggest that it could be grounds to CONSIDER termination or other options without severing employment.

For instance, perhaps there are also people in his/her position without the educational requirement, but at a different pay grade.

If he/she were a good employee, adjusting title, position, salary might be an acceptable measure.

If the position required licensing or some other requirement based on education, then clearly termination would be the only option.

Loves ya LingLing but I vehemently disagree. If the minimum requires for the position states 4 years college then the onus is on the employer to specifically state that that education must be from an accredited. Its for the employer to ascertain the appropriate education and information they require to make a proper hiring decision. They also have the ability to request transcripts. I do not think its necessary to divulge information outside of what was requested.

Loves you toosies, but I gotta ask if you think it's fair for someone to knowingly withhold information that would impact your hiring them?

Would it be OK if someone selling you something (which is what job seekers do)...that is, if someone were selling you something, and they knew that you had

certain requirements or expectations, but they withheld information in order to gain your sale...would you consider that to be OK?

[*Robert* 2]

In a way, isn't marriage a type of job? Isn't it a more important job, with more important responsibilities?

Your relationship would be put under "serious strain" because your spouse told an untruth about something?

Does that mean that you have NEVER told an untruth, embellished the truth, or failed to give complete disclosure when asked a question?

In your entire life? Including childhood?

Again, I'm not advocating misrepresentation of the truth, but I'm saying that each case has to be judged for what is right for the business,

as with what is right for the marriage.

I mean, if your wife lied to you in order to plan a surprise party, would that put serious strain on your relationship or trust?

Consideration to terminate, or modify terms of employment must always be considered on a case-by-case basis.

Let's take the case of a foreigner who has a degree, but didn't know the degree wasn't equivalent or accepted in the US,

they have unknowingly lied about their eduction, but have been the best employee for 20 years, should they be terminated instantly because they

couldn't even fill out an application properly?

If you are equating marriage to a "job", then it doesn't sound like a very passionate, loving, or romantic relationship! Marriage should not be a job. This is twice now you've used that as an example, and I'm surprised no one else has commented on it.

When two people choose to get married, they should do it based off of the time they've known each other and gotten to know each other, which in a way, could be the interview process. If you truly want to compare a marriage to a job, or make it more "job like", then I'm sure a pre-nup would be involved. In that case, if one violated the pre-nup, it would be the same as committing fraud on the application, and the marriage terminated.

Whether or not I have ever embellished on the truth is not relevant, because I have NEVER done it on a job application, or on a security questionnaire. (Keep in mind I hold a Top Secret clearance. Lying is NOT an option for me, and therefore my biggest reason for not tolerating it.)

If a person provided all the information accurately, then there shouldn't be a problem, if they are providing what they consider factual/accurate information.

Once again, it is a matter of out right lying. There is NO EXCUSE.

Edited December 6, 2008 by roi_aggie

[Ling Ling 22]

i could get it evaluated and i'would not even be equivalent to a year here. the classes are completely different, you guys don't even have a degree called publicidade e propaganda. there's marketing, but that wasn't exaclty what i did, i could've done marketing i had the option.

it's a college degree to work in advertising agencies pretty much. there's not even a translation for the word propaganda, how can i explain to my boss that it is a word used to describe advertising without having them thinking i'm a nazi?

Instead of assuming things, get it evaluated. The eval agencies are equipped to translate Brazilian credentials into their American equivalents.

i don't think it's worth wasting the time and money if I know that I could never get it to be equivalent to 4 years. That's not assuming, that's quite obvious. I know I won't qualify for jobs that require 4 years, I'm aware of that, i'll live with that.

Still, I consider myself someone who has 4 years college education, I have the knowledge and if that's not good for them, oh well.

Nessa...you owe it to yourself to investigate your options. You might not get full credit, but the combination of your education and experience could get you significant credits.

Maybe not enough for a BS, but perhaps almost enough for a 2 year AAS degree. You won't know until you try.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

i could get it evaluated and i'would not even be equivalent to a year here. the classes are completely different, you guys don't even have a degree called publicidade e propaganda. there's marketing, but that wasn't exaclty what i did, i could've done marketing i had the option.

it's a college degree to work in advertising agencies pretty much. there's not even a translation for the word propaganda, how can i explain to my boss that it is a word used to describe advertising without having them thinking i'm a nazi?

Instead of assuming things, get it evaluated. The eval agencies are equipped to translate Brazilian credentials into their American equivalents.

i don't think it's worth wasting the time and money if I know that I could never get it to be equivalent to 4 years. That's not assuming, that's quite obvious. I know I won't qualify for jobs that require 4 years, I'm aware of that, i'll live with that.

Still, I consider myself someone who has 4 years college education, I have the knowledge and if that's not good for them, oh well.

Ok, something's getting lost in translation so I will restate my point.

Your education is not wortheless - it is worth something, but less than a 4 year degree. Most of the people I know who have come to the US with foreign undergraduates have had to get their degrees evaluated, find a college that will accept most (if not all) of the credits as evaluated and then complete remaining courses to get an American undergrad. A friend of mine recently finished his bachelors degree with 3 semesters of study (on top of an Indian bachelor).

So I'm not saying you'll eval to a 4 year degree. I'm saying you'll eval to something less, giving you the leverage you need to bridge the gap.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Loves ya LingLing...

Loves you toosies ...

You two make me sick

[Niels Bohr 72]

Agreed, and some most universities have programs that will give considerable credit for life experience.

i.e. Courses where you sail over seas, student exchange, etc...

Edited December 6, 2008 by Niels Bohr

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

How about nearly a decade spent sitting in a cube attending conference calls?

[anitacastillo 0]

I still confirm my opinion that it is not okay to knowingly give false information on a job application, which is why most job applications clearly state that knowingly providing false or inaccurate information on the application is grounds for dismissal.

For me it's black and white.

Why would an employer want to hire someone who can't even fill out an application properly?! I'm sure there are plenty of other qualified applicants out there who wouldn't lie, or feel compelled to lie, in order to get a job.

It's just wrong, and I'd like to hear some compelling argument as to why it would be okay?

I agree!

I'm surprised about this 70% of people lie/embellish on applications/resumes (someone else said). I guess I'm in the 30% and I don't have any special clearance like roi_aggie

[Ling Ling 22]

In a way, isn't marriage a type of job? Isn't it a more important job, with more important responsibilities?

Your relationship would be put under "serious strain" because your spouse told an untruth about something?

Does that mean that you have NEVER told an untruth, embellished the truth, or failed to give complete disclosure when asked a question?

In your entire life? Including childhood?

Again, I'm not advocating misrepresentation of the truth, but I'm saying that each case has to be judged for what is right for the business,

as with what is right for the marriage.

I mean, if your wife lied to you in order to plan a surprise party, would that put serious strain on your relationship or trust?

Consideration to terminate, or modify terms of employment must always be considered on a case-by-case basis.

Let's take the case of a foreigner who has a degree, but didn't know the degree wasn't equivalent or accepted in the US,

they have unknowingly lied about their eduction, but have been the best employee for 20 years, should they be terminated instantly because they

couldn't even fill out an application properly?

If you are equating marriage to a "job", then it doesn't sound like a very passionate, loving, or romantic relationship! Marriage should not be a job. This is twice now you've used that as an example, and I'm surprised no one else has commented on it.

When two people choose to get married, they should do it based off of the time they've known each other and gotten to know each other, which in a way, could be the interview process. If you truly want to compare a marriage to a job, or make it more "job like", then I'm sure a pre-nup would be involved. In that case, if one violated the pre-nup, it would be the same as committing fraud on the application, and the marriage terminated.

Whether or not I have ever embellished on the truth is not relevant, because I have NEVER done it on a job application, or on a security questionnaire. (Keep in mind I hold a Top Secret clearance. Lying is NOT an option for me, and therefore my biggest reason for not tolerating it.)

If a person provided all the information accurately, then there shouldn't be a problem, if they are providing what they consider factual/accurate information.

Once again, it is a matter of out right lying. There is NO EXCUSE.

I guess I can compare marriage to a "job" because I'm fortunate enough not to have to do work that I'm not passionate about, or that I don't love doing, or that I don't find in it's own way somewhat romantic.

Even in presence of a pre-nuptial, there is still room for CONSIDERATION.

I have never said that there aren't occupations, such as yours, where there is absolutely no room for dishonesty.

My argument is NOT that lying is OK. My argument is that ALL circumstances must be considered, and that in some circumstance it may not be best for the business

to terminate exclusively on the basis of a misrepresentation.

I guess what I'm saying is that many of you are being hypocritical, in that saying in employment situations any untruth is grounds for termination of relationship, but in other instances it may not be. That is a double standard. The truth does not change if you're at work or at home. If you told a lie when you were younger, then you have not always told the truth. You may always tell the truth now, but your capacity for telling the truth has not changed. Your ability to know the difference between a lie and the truth have not changed. The consequences for not telling the truth are the only thing that has changed. So do not think yourself better now for being a more truthful person, for there are many that would not have told the lies you did, and that makes you no worse or them any greater. You are each different...but if you are human, more likely than not you have told a lie sometime in your life. I challenge you to find someone who has not.

Loves ya LingLing...

Loves you toosies ...

You two make me sick

Fine, we loves youse A.J.

[LaL 418]

I disagree that a lie told in a marriage is an equitable comparison here.

Cool

On what basis?

Are you saying sometimes it's OK to lie to your spouse (who should be one of the most important people in your life)

but telling a lie to anyone else should always result in termination?

I am not saying any of those things. I am just saying if we were arguing the marriage angle with <insert whatever lie in here> I would have a different perspective.

How and why would your perspective be different?

Are you purposely being vague?

I am not being vague - I already stated I dont think the marriage lie example is relevant, therefore why would I argue the point it?

Ehhhh, I was interested in hearing your point, but you haven't made one nor argued one, you've only made vague statements.

Saying you don't agree is not making a point. Saying you would have a different perspective, is not making a point. They are in fact vague statements.

I made my point on the topic earlier in the thread. I just dont feel the way you do about correlating it to a lie in marriage, and because of that, I dont care to expand on that. I said my piece on the overall topic.

[Ling Ling 22]

I disagree that a lie told in a marriage is an equitable comparison here.

Cool

On what basis?

Are you saying sometimes it's OK to lie to your spouse (who should be one of the most important people in your life)

but telling a lie to anyone else should always result in termination?

I am not saying any of those things. I am just saying if we were arguing the marriage angle with <insert whatever lie in here> I would have a different perspective.

How and why would your perspective be different?

Are you purposely being vague?

I am not being vague - I already stated I dont think the marriage lie example is relevant, therefore why would I argue the point it?

Ehhhh, I was interested in hearing your point, but you haven't made one nor argued one, you've only made vague statements.

Saying you don't agree is not making a point. Saying you would have a different perspective, is not making a point. They are in fact vague statements.

I made my point on the topic earlier in the thread. I just dont feel the way you do about correlating it to a lie in marriage, and because of that, I dont care to expand on that. I said my piece on the overall topic.

whatever

[MrsCat 6]

how about my case? I have 4 years of college, if i tell my employer that and that's a requirement for my job and they hire me based on my word, am I lying becase those 4 years are wortheless in the States? therefore I have no college degree valid for that job position?

Not at all. You do have 4 years of college. It would only be a lie if they specifically asked for an accredited college in the USA.

However in this case, were the applicant to know the difference between 4 years of college and a US college degree,

then they have taken advantage of the situation, not fully disclosed their education, and essentially embellished a truth.

To some here, that is in fact a lie, and ALWAYS grounds for termination.

I would suggest that it could be grounds to CONSIDER termination or other options without severing employment.

For instance, perhaps there are also people in his/her position without the educational requirement, but at a different pay grade.

If he/she were a good employee, adjusting title, position, salary might be an acceptable measure.

If the position required licensing or some other requirement based on education, then clearly termination would be the only option.

Loves ya LingLing but I vehemently disagree. If the minimum requires for the position states 4 years college then the onus is on the employer to specifically state that that education must be from an accredited. Its for the employer to ascertain the appropriate education and information they require to make a proper hiring decision. They also have the ability to request transcripts. I do not think its necessary to divulge information outside of what was requested.

Loves you toosies, but I gotta ask if you think it's fair for someone to knowingly withhold information that would impact your hiring them?

Would it be OK if someone selling you something (which is what job seekers do)...that is, if someone were selling you something, and they knew that you had

certain requirements or expectations, but they withheld information in order to gain your sale...would you consider that to be OK?

I mean I don't think its right but at the same time I believe the legal term is caveat emptor. Buyer beware. Unless someone is absolutely fraudulent in what they present (employer/employee, buyer/seller), its for the person who makes the hiring/buying decision to make all the necessary inquiries before making the final decision. In the first example that person was being fraudulent - he blatantly lied about having a necessary qualification. In Nessa's example she has the requested necessary qualification and the employer should have sought further clarification.

If I am buying a car and it has defects, unless the person blatantly lied about specifics of the car I don't have a case. It was my job to have it inspected and ask the necessary questions. A person who says I have a degree from college is under no obligation to state where its from unless specifically asked. If an employer is going to hire someone without asking where and what its worth here is just like buying a car without an inspection in my opinion.

[Amby 490]

I fired MrsCat for lying to me about her sex education skills. She knew more about booze

[웃 910]

Depends on the situation. Did he/she personally manipulate the boss by lying to his face, speaking about his/her former education that he/she never received? Did he/she present a fake degree? Is this fake degree hanging on the wall of his/her office?

If the answer to every question above is yes then fire the person immediately.

Unless this person is an exemplary worker and unbelievably superior to all his/her employees, in which case I would make him/her the second highest in command, after me!

If the person simply wrote on a resume an education that he/she never received, then probably just confront him/her about it. Sit down, have a meeting, reevaluate their personality, job performance, and ethics. If you decide that the person is more of a liability than an asset, tell the person to pack his/her belongings and not to let the door hit 'em on the way out.

Edited December 6, 2008 by Confucian