mena men and smoking

[Der Bücherwurm 1]

Life over there is just like life everywhere...Everything is just more discreet and quiet cause its very very against the law there....Everything we have here they have there in different forms....

Just to put this in proper context... People are people all over the world. Men are gonna do what they are going to do all over the world no matter what laws you put on them.Its hypocritical for anyone from over there to start talking about how decadent our society is and not recognise that their society has exactly the same ills except they are covert and released differently. Just cause you dont see things, doesnt mean they dont exist. Bigger cities have more of it.. smaller cities less but it still exists. Some cities are very well known for it.. Its always existed over there just like it exists over here ...so its not a run down of a society. Its just something that maybe if you are a tourist you arent aware of.

But for anyone over there to act like the USA is soooooooooooo bad and nothing is going on over there is a bunch of bumpkiss. Its hypocrisy thats so annoying ...not the acts... Its everywhere and there is good and bad everywhere..and everything that exists stateside is over there too

That is so true HIT. The VJ girls don't understand where my views come from because they were just over there for 2 weeks and had all their experiences shielded and filtered by their husbands so they didn't see the hypocrisy and double standards that I see living here in the UAE on a daily basis. They have all the negative things over here that you find everywhere else but what they don't have here is the choice and freedom that you enjoy in the west. Women have only half the rights of a man and even the men don't have the same amount of freedom as in the west. Just try to criticize the government or royal families and see what happens. The problem I have with the ME isn't that they have problems it's that they deny and hide it and then have the nerve to turn and point fingers and trash the west, particularly western women. I find the muslims here get down and dirty much worse and more often than anything you'll ever see in the west. They just disguise it and make themselves hypocrites on top of it all when people would have a better impression and be ok with it if they'd just be honest about it. But if you've ever lived in the ME you know that honesty doesn't come easy here if at all. I swear if one more arab hypocrite in a lily white dress starts trashing western women around me I'm gonna rip the white rag off his head and strangle him with it and give him an earful about the things I've seen and experienced here.

[notime4haterz 0]

That all sounds so appealing.

I guess I will stick to my horrible western ways and be glad that I married the man I was already in love with. I guess I will expect him to hold high enough moral values to remain true to me. And I guess if he doesn't I will be one of those horrible western woman that will refuse to close my eyes to it, and not accept it, and will get a divorce. How unromantic am I anyway?

BTW I am sure that not all MENA men cheat on their wives while they are home with their kids. I wouldn't doubt that the women do it too. I am sure that there are as many there as there are here. The difference is that I think that a lot of the women here refuse to accept it while it is encouraged to accept it there. In fact, for those that don't ever fall in love with their husbands I doubt they really care, as long as they keep supporting them. I may not know Islam well, but I am 100% sure that this kind of behavior is unacceptable.

I am sure I have stepped on some toes here. Sorry. It's my own personal opinion. Nothing more nothing less. To each his own.

Of course not everyone does it.. BUT I honestly think that the women put up with alot more than americans do. Meanwhile some of them act ( the wives) all high and mighty and have no clue as to whats going on under their nose. I have a really close Moroccan girl friend who I see all the time and her daughter is the same age as mine and we talk about all kinds of things. She wasnt even aware of the existance of bordellos in her own neighborhood. Its just not talked about between the girls. All those chicks cheb khaled sings about in his songs...? Yep they exist and they are rocking the house in private brothels all over the city where he is from. Ask a woman about them.. no one knows. Ask a guy? He will point them out all over the neighborhood. Its like house calls.. or a woman who will sleep with you for a rate running from 5 to 25 bucks.... The wives of these guys dont ask questions...the guy pays the bills so they shut up and dont look too hard. Thats why you see throngs of guys sitting up all night at coffee shops and not a whole lot of women. The women are home. The women that are ..um...doing other things...wear jilbabs to the locations and um...slip out of them and do their thing...

American women would be slapping gps tags on the bumpers of the guys cars. Guys in general have a whole lot more freedom to come and go and they just dont talk about this stuff in family settings.... And alot of women never know about the lifestyle... What cracks me up is when my North African friends go home for a month by themselves and tell their American or European wife that they are having such a MISERABLE time over there..I just wanna say.. you are not fooling anyone. Any north african city is fun as hell..with lots of things to do if you got the money to get the honey and smoke a little zatla and go hit the cabarets....

Lots of guys do the right thing.. but its not fair to realise that there are some SEVERE double standards going on...

As far as I am concerned after 7 years running around over there....American women have alot more options open to them if the guy is being a pain..Over there,, you get hit and yeah you have some remedy..or you get cheated on..but its nothing like the freedom we have as American women and the legal support and remedies you are offered.

The women over there just simply put up with a hell of alot more than American women to include sometimes husbands leaving the country to work over seas for years and years....and alot more than that..

Cheers

I don't get some people. You have nothing good or positive to say about MENA culture and it's like every guy MENA is a terrible man and maybe, if we're lucky, a few are really decent...so why marry from there??? You have the right to choose a spouse from anywhere on this planet. If I didn't know anything about MENA men, and I was reading some of the posts on this region, I would run in the other direction and never even look at a map of MENA let alone any man from there!!!

And I don't know where everyone lives, but I see SO MANY American women who are suffering a million times more badly than MENA women. They are abandoned, neglected, with no family or male relatives to take care of them. They have abusive husbands, lazy husbands, unemployed husbands... deadbeap dads not paying child support... working like a slave for meager wages to feed their kids, ALONE. These women are drugged up on anti-depressants, or drinking booze everyday to forget their stress, worries, and problem. They try dating and going out to meet men and they either get scammed, used, or rejected. Where exactly in the US is life so wonderful? On the contrary, people are getting unemployed left and right and things are getting expensive. Even in upscale neighborhoods, our homes are getting broken into and we're being robbed by poor people on the other side of town (because they want nice gifts for x-mas without paying for them).

I see a double standard everywhere...and smoking would be the least of my worries. If he's a good man, then he'll be willing to stop smoking to make you happy, because that's what good men do...they try and keep their wives happy.

Lets turn this around.

Whats are the prospects for lets say the average mena woman to get remarried if she gets divorced?You are generalising about AMERICAN WOMEN. Whos to say that they are not wonderful moms doing a good job by their kids? How do you know that all mena men both here and there are such fabulous dads living up to their responsibilites? At least in the USA , a woman whos lost her virginity or is divorced can remarry pretty easily.

Dont you think you are generalising about American women and our needs and wants? If a woman is poor here she has alot more opportunity to help herself out of prostitution..If you get stuck doing that over there you cant get yourself out of it. They dont have the social services networks we have. Here in the US you can rebuild your life. You are generalising like hell about all american women as if we are ALL drugged up or drinking...Like no Americans have great husbands that are good to them... You maybe know the mena girls with 10000 dollars worth of gold...but there is a whole underbelly of society in mena that slips through the cracks and its hell on earth to be suffering alone with kids over there... there is no afdc...if you dont have the money... you cant get 400 a month in cash assistance and food stamps.. Thats who is hooking in a lot of parts of North Africa because they have kids and families to feed and very little jobs.

You also said they give custody to "crack whores" in the USA. I think you have a very skewed view of Americans. I know tons of Americans who do right by their kids and are great parents. Life isnt paradise in Mena even if in your life, you sit around getting 10,0000 dollars worth of gold and worshipped for your blondness (sic)

Life is the same there as here with alot of the same social ills....

No, I'm simply generalizing in the same way you do. Labeling all people and focusing only on negative things. Do you re-read your posts? It's all you do! I haven't read anything positive from your posts. The topic was about smoking and you're here telling people about brothels in Morocco. How many women here are married to Moroccan men? Men who are still in Morocco? Do you think your posts make them feel good? Or are you just trying to get people to get suspicious about their husbands? So they can join you in misery??? It's no wonder everyone attacks you for your posts. Why don't you think about what you're saying? And ask yourself if the loathing pertains to the subject the original poster was talking about????

[notime4haterz 0]

Life isnt paradise in Mena even if in your life, you sit around getting 10,0000 dollars worth of gold and worshipped for your blondness (sic)

I'm sorry that I see the positive side to people, and don't go around trying to convince everyone that all MENA men, laws, life, society is terrible, because you had a bad marriage and were treated unkindly by your husband... And I'm sorry that my husband loves me, takes care of me, and "worships" me for my blondness. I'm sorry you missed the gravy train, but don't keep dumping on people because they aren't miserable like you.

And FYI. I was divorced. My first husband was Kuwaiti. Do I go around saying all Kuwaiti men are bad? Nope. And I also had no problem whatsoever getting remarried. I still got my dowry, a wedding, and love from him and his family. My divorce was never an issue.

So generalize all you want. I'm certain people here are intellegent enough to decipher truth from exaggeration.

[morocco4ever 63]

I don't think Kat's posts are totally off, but perhaps an exageration. I do know it goes on there. I do know there are cities that have prostitution. I don't believe it is in every city, on every street corner. Just like your (Narina's) posts were an exageration of the life here. I was a single mom. I was not abandoned. I did not turn to drugs or prostitution to get by. I was not in a good financial position at the start, but I went back to school and got my degree. I am now in a much better financial situation. That is what the US has to offer. In Morocco, or other MENA countries they do have prostitution. I don't think they have assistance programs there, nor do they have the opportunities we have to better our lives. I hate to see prostitution, but the bottom line is that girls there turn to this because they can't do anything else. And yes, they are scarred for life as far as any opportunity to get out of that lifestyle. It really sucks. There are going to be men that pretend to be honorable men that use these services. This goes on everywhere, not exclusive to either the US or MENA. I believe what comes around goes around however.

BTW, as anyone can tell my husband is Moroccan. Kat's post don't worry me in the least. If it does for anyone that would be a shame. I hate to see people who are so insecure in their relationships that these kind of rants will affect them. Whether warranted or not, that is a sad place to be.

[notime4haterz 0]

I don't think Kat's posts are totally off, but perhaps an exageration. I do know it goes on there. I do know there are cities that have prostitution. I don't believe it is in every city, on every street corner. Just like your (Narina's) posts were an exageration of the life here. I was a single mom. I was not abandoned. I did not turn to drugs or prostitution to get by. I was not in a good financial position at the start, but I went back to school and got my degree. I am now in a much better financial situation. That is what the US has to offer. In Morocco, or other MENA countries they do have prostitution. I don't think they have assistance programs there, nor do they have the opportunities we have to better our lives. I hate to see prostitution, but the bottom line is that girls there turn to this because they can't do anything else. And yes, they are scarred for life as far as any opportunity to get out of that lifestyle. It really sucks. There are going to be men that pretend to be honorable men that use these services. This goes on everywhere, not exclusive to either the US or MENA. I believe what comes around goes around however.

BTW, as anyone can tell my husband is Moroccan. Kat's post don't worry me in the least. If it does for anyone that would be a shame. I hate to see people who are so insecure in their relationships that these kind of rants will affect them. Whether warranted or not, that is a sad place to be.

Yes, that was my point, which I put in the following post...I was generalizing and exaggerating to show that when you write something like that, it's pretty ridiculous.

There are alot of women here and elsewhere who are not in stable relationships...and they are insecure. Some of them already have suspicions or problems with their husbands, and this would just be like the icing on the cake.

LOL My husband lives in Amsterdam...where drugs and prostitution are legal. I have no insecurity whatsoever, or I would be freaking out about it everyday. Hmm...but they are like 90% Muslims where he lives...Moroccans and Turks...I guess I should be worried now! They might be having Moroccan brothels and wife beating contests!

[Ihavequestions 419]

I don't think Kat's posts are totally off, but perhaps an exageration.

Well, I'm living in Egypt (again) and I happen to believe her posts are spot on accurate. The first time I came here my husband took me to a club because he wanted me to "know Egypt." Sure enough, on stage was a belly dancer (and it is totally haram to look at a woman dancing who is not one's wife), shaking her stuff for a room full of men - most of them with their big ol' zabibas hanging off their foreheads, sipping beer with wedding rings on their fingers - while they throw hands full of money at the stage. This is the way he described it to me: "In Egypt, everybody has secret lives." Moreover, my Egyptian brother-in-law put it this way: "People do everything in Egypt they do in America, they just hide it in the dark."

I wouldn't lay it all on the men, though. The women are just as guilty. They're the ones doing, as my salon girl described it, "everything but intercourse," including oral and ####### sex because if she loses her virginity her marriage options are dismal at best. Once a woman loses her virginity her body is her own. Married women have affairs, too. A bawab (doorman) will let anyone in the building and keep his mouth shut for a few pounds because bawabs are poor and money talks. Divorced women live with a rediculous social stigma but everyone knows they aren't virgins so they can do what they want, sexually. So who do you think these women are getting all of this action with? MEN. Single men and married men alike, as Kat said, either in a car or a park, or in a hotel room with a throw-away, orfi, marriage. As my husband says, "Here sex is easy."

If you're going to discuss divorce rates, they are best discussed with accurate information. The divorce rate in Egypt is high. Thirty percent of all marriages in Egypt end during the first year. Are they love marriages? Maybe. Arranged? Maybe. It doesn't matter. What matters is they can and do fail. I've heard more than one reason why, but the one that's most telling is they get married and she purposely turns into Bridezilla so he will divorce her. That way she (ideally) gets the rest of her mahr and her virginity is no longer a problem, thus she has money and sexual freedom.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

I don't think Kat's posts are totally off, but perhaps an exageration. I do know it goes on there. I do know there are cities that have prostitution. I don't believe it is in every city, on every street corner. Just like your (Narina's) posts were an exageration of the life here. I was a single mom. I was not abandoned. I did not turn to drugs or prostitution to get by. I was not in a good financial position at the start, but I went back to school and got my degree. I am now in a much better financial situation. That is what the US has to offer. In Morocco, or other MENA countries they do have prostitution. I don't think they have assistance programs there, nor do they have the opportunities we have to better our lives. I hate to see prostitution, but the bottom line is that girls there turn to this because they can't do anything else. And yes, they are scarred for life as far as any opportunity to get out of that lifestyle. It really sucks. There are going to be men that pretend to be honorable men that use these services. This goes on everywhere, not exclusive to either the US or MENA. I believe what comes around goes around however.

BTW, as anyone can tell my husband is Moroccan. Kat's post don't worry me in the least. If it does for anyone that would be a shame. I hate to see people who are so insecure in their relationships that these kind of rants will affect them. Whether warranted or not, that is a sad place to be.

Yes, that was my point, which I put in the following post...I was generalizing and exaggerating to show that when you write something like that, it's pretty ridiculous.

There are alot of women here and elsewhere who are not in stable relationships...and they are insecure. Some of them already have suspicions or problems with their husbands, and this would just be like the icing on the cake.

LOL My husband lives in Amsterdam...where drugs and prostitution are legal. I have no insecurity whatsoever, or I would be freaking out about it everyday. Hmm...but they are like 90% Muslims where he lives...Moroccans and Turks...I guess I should be worried now! They might be having Moroccan brothels and wife beating contests!

Oh come on.No one is even comparing Amsterdam to the more closed societies of MENA. And the brothels there are not Moroccan or turkish. They are part of dutch society like open pot smoking etc.Dutch society is absolutely not relevant to anything to do with mena and the underbelly of life there...Yes, many benefit from strong Islamic social mores and values. Many help and are kind to each other. But lots of kids slip through the cracks there...There isnt the open conversation and help for people who dont fit within muslim society.

And talking about the brothels in MENA isnt going to make someone suspect their relationship. The only thing it will counter are these ridiculous claims that some how all the things going on in the rest of the world arent going on over there. They are and I dont think in anyway discussions about brothels are going to make someone insecure in their relationship. I think with frank and open discussion you will find out lots of things about society there without putting blame or attaching relevance to it. I think its more when people say that this stuff doesnt exist in MENA because everyone over there is perfect etc.. that this stuff becomes an issue

I dont think you were kidding Narina when you talked about Americans and their relationships and the comments about all being drugged and miserable. I think this is a very common perception of women here by many people from outside of our culture. Many women get abandoned over there and at least here there are organizations to help our kids finish college... illegitamacy here doesnt keep you from getting a birth certificate and inheritance rights and it certainly does there. And here you can adopt a child who doesnt have a daddy. In muslim society adoption is very very difficult and many kids languish in orphanages due to the laws of Kafala. To idealise society and its ills there and to demonise our society doesnt do anyone any favors. They have a whole set of social ills in mena society like we have here. We just approach how we deal with the ills differently.There when a child is born illegitmately, its not accepted by society and integrated. There are orphanages all over North Africa because illegiatamate children are not only not given papers, they cant grow up like normal children. Thats why there is such a proliferation of baby houses or orphanages... Here in the US a single mom can get assistance and thrive. Glorifying their society without taking a hard look at how they handle social ills is unfair to our society where everything is out in the open and kids without dads have a chance to thrive.. and yes..even become president...Kids here cannot legally run in the streets sniffing glue with no one to care for them because we have a strong social welfare system as opposed to there. A 16 year old if she gets caught prostitituting has a chance to be rehabilitated here. Not there.. Theres no hope and its the end of the line. The way a society handles the least fortunate is who that society becomes... Trickle down economics hasnt worked for those of us here in the US without health insurance and ignoring the ills of whats going on over there doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

Good things and bad exist all over the world and being muslim doesnt protect a society from the things we have everywhere else

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

I don't think Kat's posts are totally off, but perhaps an exageration.

Well, I'm living in Egypt (again) and I happen to believe her posts are spot on accurate. The first time I came here my husband took me to a club because he wanted me to "know Egypt." Sure enough, on stage was a belly dancer (and it is totally haram to look at a woman dancing who is not one's wife), shaking her stuff for a room full of men - most of them with their big ol' zabibas hanging off their foreheads, sipping beer with wedding rings on their fingers - while they throw hands full of money at the stage. This is the way he described it to me: "In Egypt, everybody has secret lives." Moreover, my Egyptian brother-in-law put it this way: "People do everything in Egypt they do in America, they just hide it in the dark."

I wouldn't lay it all on the men, though. The women are just as guilty. They're the ones doing, as my salon girl described it, "everything but intercourse," including oral and ####### sex because if she loses her virginity her marriage options are dismal at best. Once a woman loses her virginity her body is her own. Married women have affairs, too. A bawab (doorman) will let anyone in the building and keep his mouth shut for a few pounds because bawabs are poor and money talks. Divorced women live with a rediculous social stigma but everyone knows they aren't virgins so they can do what they want, sexually. So who do you think these women are getting all of this action with? MEN. Single men and married men alike, as Kat said, either in a car or a park, or in a hotel room with a throw-away, orfi, marriage. As my husband says, "Here sex is easy."

If you're going to discuss divorce rates, they are best discussed with accurate information. The divorce rate in Egypt is high. Thirty percent of all marriages in Egypt end during the first year. Are they love marriages? Maybe. Arranged? Maybe. It doesn't matter. What matters is they can and do fail. I've heard more than one reason why, but the one that's most telling is they get married and she purposely turns into Bridezilla so he will divorce her. That way she (ideally) gets the rest of her mahr and her virginity is no longer a problem, thus she has money and sexual freedom.

Thank you...someone who actually LIVES there so you know EXACTLY what I am talking about. You cant go on a once a year 2 week trip or a 3 week lets get married trip and see any of this. It exists and people do pretty much the same things there that they do here its just more covert. I actually have Moroccan and Algerian friends who have told me that sex is actually MUCH EASIER there because its cheaper to just go get a bar girl and or go to a bordel than to do the whole dating thing here where you have to chat her up, buy dinner, do this do that to maybe get a shot at scoring. The girls working at these places are often very very young and from villiages and are in the bigger cities to make a living for a huge family back home.. You have young 15 to 20 year olds.. impressionable and sweet working as femme de mannage and in brothels and clubs and they are cheap as heck and easy to violate.

I actually know a girl who staged a whole wedding because she wasnt a virgin so she actually could go looking for someone to really marry because if she was divorced, she could explain not being a virgin to the next guy she was with.

just like over here... life over there has its bad sides as well.

You live there... you see it.. I have just interacted with alot of the people stateside who told me about it and even going there it wasnt immediately evident. It took 2 or 3 trips to the same city over there to really understand all these unwritten rules and things going on. None of this is relevant to normal every day life but it does shine a pretty strong light on the arguement that somehow American society is sooooooooooo decadent and their society is just perfect. Oh Hogwash....Its everywhere in MENA just like here

[Ihavequestions 419]

There when a child is born illegitmately, its not accepted by society and integrated. There are orphanages all over North Africa because illegiatamate children are not only not given papers, they cant grow up like normal children. Thats why there is such a proliferation of baby houses or orphanages...

Good point, but perhaps, for the sake of discussion (because this "smoking" link really is a discussion about double-standards, is it not?), we could elaborate on what you mean when you say, "There are orphanages all over North Africa because illegiatamate children are not only not given papers, they cant grow up like normal children." What that really means is children born out of wedlock aren't issued a birth certificate. Because they don't have a birth certificate, they don't enjoy the few social benefits there are - they can't have medical care and they can't go to school. What they do is languish in "orphanages" until they're old enough to be put out. The boys beg on the streets and and the girls are married off. I asked my husband how old these children are when they're put out and he told me "8 to 10 years old," so that means there are EIGHT YEAR OLD GIRLS being married off, illegally.

I think this is a very common perception of women here by many people from outside of our culture.

Of course it is because they all watch western movies/television shows and they no clue about what we are all taught in school - simple marketing techniques and that blood and sex sell. So, from their skewed point-of-view, "all black people in America are dangerous" and "it's bad for an American woman to be a virgin when she gets married" My response to these and other actual statements has been and always will be, "Of course. And all Muslims are terrorists." Trust me, when you put it into perspective for them and you take the time to explain those same simple marketing strategies, blood/sex connection, they do get it, but that is what it takes.

[notime4haterz 0]

I don't think Kat's posts are totally off, but perhaps an exageration. I do know it goes on there. I do know there are cities that have prostitution. I don't believe it is in every city, on every street corner. Just like your (Narina's) posts were an exageration of the life here. I was a single mom. I was not abandoned. I did not turn to drugs or prostitution to get by. I was not in a good financial position at the start, but I went back to school and got my degree. I am now in a much better financial situation. That is what the US has to offer. In Morocco, or other MENA countries they do have prostitution. I don't think they have assistance programs there, nor do they have the opportunities we have to better our lives. I hate to see prostitution, but the bottom line is that girls there turn to this because they can't do anything else. And yes, they are scarred for life as far as any opportunity to get out of that lifestyle. It really sucks. There are going to be men that pretend to be honorable men that use these services. This goes on everywhere, not exclusive to either the US or MENA. I believe what comes around goes around however.

BTW, as anyone can tell my husband is Moroccan. Kat's post don't worry me in the least. If it does for anyone that would be a shame. I hate to see people who are so insecure in their relationships that these kind of rants will affect them. Whether warranted or not, that is a sad place to be.

Yes, that was my point, which I put in the following post...I was generalizing and exaggerating to show that when you write something like that, it's pretty ridiculous.

There are alot of women here and elsewhere who are not in stable relationships...and they are insecure. Some of them already have suspicions or problems with their husbands, and this would just be like the icing on the cake.

LOL My husband lives in Amsterdam...where drugs and prostitution are legal. I have no insecurity whatsoever, or I would be freaking out about it everyday. Hmm...but they are like 90% Muslims where he lives...Moroccans and Turks...I guess I should be worried now! They might be having Moroccan brothels and wife beating contests!

Oh come on.No one is even comparing Amsterdam to the more closed societies of MENA. And the brothels there are not Moroccan or turkish. They are part of dutch society like open pot smoking etc.Dutch society is absolutely not relevant to anything to do with mena and the underbelly of life there...Yes, many benefit from strong Islamic social mores and values. Many help and are kind to each other. But lots of kids slip through the cracks there...There isnt the open conversation and help for people who dont fit within muslim society.

And talking about the brothels in MENA isnt going to make someone suspect their relationship. The only thing it will counter are these ridiculous claims that some how all the things going on in the rest of the world arent going on over there. They are and I dont think in anyway discussions about brothels are going to make someone insecure in their relationship. I think with frank and open discussion you will find out lots of things about society there without putting blame or attaching relevance to it. I think its more when people say that this stuff doesnt exist in MENA because everyone over there is perfect etc.. that this stuff becomes an issue

I dont think you were kidding Narina when you talked about Americans and their relationships and the comments about all being drugged and miserable. I think this is a very common perception of women here by many people from outside of our culture. Many women get abandoned over there and at least here there are organizations to help our kids finish college... illegitamacy here doesnt keep you from getting a birth certificate and inheritance rights and it certainly does there. And here you can adopt a child who doesnt have a daddy. In muslim society adoption is very very difficult and many kids languish in orphanages due to the laws of Kafala. To idealise society and its ills there and to demonise our society doesnt do anyone any favors. They have a whole set of social ills in mena society like we have here. We just approach how we deal with the ills differently.There when a child is born illegitmately, its not accepted by society and integrated. There are orphanages all over North Africa because illegiatamate children are not only not given papers, they cant grow up like normal children. Thats why there is such a proliferation of baby houses or orphanages... Here in the US a single mom can get assistance and thrive. Glorifying their society without taking a hard look at how they handle social ills is unfair to our society where everything is out in the open and kids without dads have a chance to thrive.. and yes..even become president...Kids here cannot legally run in the streets sniffing glue with no one to care for them because we have a strong social welfare system as opposed to there. A 16 year old if she gets caught prostitituting has a chance to be rehabilitated here. Not there.. Theres no hope and its the end of the line. The way a society handles the least fortunate is who that society becomes... Trickle down economics hasnt worked for those of us here in the US without health insurance and ignoring the ills of whats going on over there doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

Good things and bad exist all over the world and being muslim doesnt protect a society from the things we have everywhere else

I don't get you...who's demonizing whom? You're the one demonizing the entire Middle East! You're the one that brings out all the problems and ills and everything you went through, every single time someone posts something. No one was talking about orphans (although if you know anything about the the religion, not even you could deny that Islam makes taking care of orphans, of utmost importance)...someone posted about smoking and you went on an all out attack! I happen to agree with Rahma's post. And I don't think it's as bad as you're making it out to be.

The problems that the middle east is facing is quite simply because they aren't following Islamic law...they're starting to become westernized, and as a result they are encountering problems which we've had here in the west for some time.

In the 70's girls were sent away when they got pregnant out of wedlock, their babies had "illegitimate" written on their birth certificate. They gave babies away for adoption because of fear of being shamed. That was because it was all new to the society back then. Now, it's happening in the Middle East, and it's new for them. In another 30-40 years it will probably be something normal and they will probably have the same social systems that we have here in the US.

[notime4haterz 0]

And someone remind me please, where I said that ALL people in MENA are angels? I never said that or implied it! I'm not that naive. I don't think anyone is. And if you're angry because some MENA people implied that you weren't good enough, because you're American, well that doesn't mean everyone thinks the same. Obviously, a MENA man married you...so he must have thought you were decent. Why would you think everyone thinks American women are bad????

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Life isnt paradise in Mena even if in your life, you sit around getting 10,0000 dollars worth of gold and worshipped for your blondness (sic)

I'm sorry that I see the positive side to people, and don't go around trying to convince everyone that all MENA men, laws, life, society is terrible, because you had a bad marriage and were treated unkindly by your husband... And I'm sorry that my husband loves me, takes care of me, and "worships" me for my blondness. I'm sorry you missed the gravy train, but don't keep dumping on people because they aren't miserable like you.

And FYI. I was divorced. My first husband was Kuwaiti. Do I go around saying all Kuwaiti men are bad? Nope. And I also had no problem whatsoever getting remarried. I still got my dowry, a wedding, and love from him and his family. My divorce was never an issue.

So generalize all you want. I'm certain people here are intellegent enough to decipher truth from exaggeration.

You are the one that generalised about American single moms how we are all on drugs.. and drinking from depression and some how muslim society was free of those ills. There are pleny of positives to every where you live. As marked below, someone who actually LIVES in mena concurs with what I said ...No one said all of anyone is bad. But you went full on about how American society breeds a bunch of single moms, addcited to alcohol and anti depressants,,all getting used for sex and tossed. How is that looking for the positives..

I didnt miss the gravy train. I was born on it. My husband didnt have to buy his greencard. And most on here didnt either... They were in love and we took them for what they were..poor. I didnt look at my marriage as a gravy train because I was raised by parents who took me over seas and I have travelled and lived extensively overseas.. There was no price and never has been for my commitment or my life..A maher doesnt guarantee love or commitment. Thats something that you cannot buy... and no one is faulting you or your family for demanding a dowry. We dont do that in the US. We dont demand gold or a large sum of money for marriage. Thats a cultural difference.

And FYI, you are perpetuating social myths about single moms and how they live,exist and survive hardships. You are doing a disservice to any American you meet because when you repeat fallacies about American single mothers, you demean us. Take another look at alot of the women on these boards who are moral and did right by their american kids...You didnt get saddled with that burden.. I have an arab daughter whos dad is a complete zero and he camps in the mosque and its islam this and islam that and he gave nothing to his little girl for eid. Its her american family that will do for her this eid.. Take a look at the myths you are perpetuating yourself....I missed the gravy train but I sure havent said all mena people do anything of the sort...

[Ihavequestions 419]

The problems that the middle east is facing is quite simply because they aren't following Islamic law...they're starting to become westernized, and as a result they are encountering problems which we've had here in the west for some time.

In the 70's girls were sent away when they got pregnant out of wedlock, their babies had "illegitimate" written on their birth certificate. They gave babies away for adoption because of fear of being shamed. That was because it was all new to the society back then. Now, it's happening in the Middle East, and it's new for them. In another 30-40 years it will probably be something normal and they will probably have the same social systems that we have here in the US.

I disagree. I believe, instead, that Islamic law is being forced on a people who don't want to accept it so, instead, they skirt the law the best way they can - in secret, in the dark. It has nothing to do with "westernization" at all. Orphanages aren't new. It's never been culturally acceptable to have a child out of wedlock in any MENA country. The issues is that there are orphanages to begin with, and that there are plenty of children to stock those orphanages. The reason for this is the very crux of this thread's topic, the double-standard (I smoke but you can't). If a woman isn't married here and she gets pregnant (and assuming she doesn't live in a village where her family will kill her), her life is over. If a man is questioned about his part in the conception of a child without being married, he just denies it. In the absence of the compulsory amount of witnesses, her word is worthless. She gives birth and the child lives in an orphanage, one that, in an ideal Islamic world, would not have to exist anyway.

That's not bashing MENA, just like Kat's not bashing MENA. It's simply stating the way it is.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

And someone remind me please, where I said that ALL people in MENA are angels? I never said that or implied it! I'm not that naive. I don't think anyone is. And if you're angry because some MENA people implied that you weren't good enough, because you're American, well that doesn't mean everyone thinks the same. Obviously, a MENA man married you...so he must have thought you were decent. Why would you think everyone thinks American women are bad????

I didnt recall mentioning American women. You did. I was talking about double standards of behavior. You are the only one who demonised American single moms... not me. You were the one saying we are all on meds, drinking and dating and having sex and being tossed. I said absolutely nothing about the lifestyle of American women. That was your take.

And I dont think islamic society will ever normalise illegitamate birth. There is a thriving late abortion trade all over North Africa because if you have a baby without a daddy not only does the baby suffer,unable to go to school or go to the dr, the mother suffers too. Its better to drop the baby off at the orphanage than lose any chance at ever having a life...Thats where the unfairness and double standards drops into this

I didn t mention Americans or say a single thing about how they live their life NOR did I demonise all mena men or people. We were talking about double standards brought on by the orignal conversation and I elaborated.It was you who brought american women and our medicated lifestyle into the mix.. Not me..

For the record...your perceptions about single mothers is so off.. I think you need to really take a hard look at the people you know and maybe make some new single mom friends.. I am saddened by this generalisation the most because its such a disservice to women who have struggled hard to do right by their kids and are dealing with being alone through no fault of their own

[notime4haterz 0]

Life isnt paradise in Mena even if in your life, you sit around getting 10,0000 dollars worth of gold and worshipped for your blondness (sic)

I'm sorry that I see the positive side to people, and don't go around trying to convince everyone that all MENA men, laws, life, society is terrible, because you had a bad marriage and were treated unkindly by your husband... And I'm sorry that my husband loves me, takes care of me, and "worships" me for my blondness. I'm sorry you missed the gravy train, but don't keep dumping on people because they aren't miserable like you.

And FYI. I was divorced. My first husband was Kuwaiti. Do I go around saying all Kuwaiti men are bad? Nope. And I also had no problem whatsoever getting remarried. I still got my dowry, a wedding, and love from him and his family. My divorce was never an issue.

So generalize all you want. I'm certain people here are intellegent enough to decipher truth from exaggeration.

You are the one that generalised about American single moms how we are all on drugs.. and drinking from depression and some how muslim society was free of those ills. There are pleny of positives to every where you live. As marked below, someone who actually LIVES in mena concurs with what I said ...No one said all of anyone is bad. But you went full on about how American society breeds a bunch of single moms, addcited to alcohol and anti depressants,,all getting used for sex and tossed. How is that looking for the positives..

I didnt miss the gravy train. I was born on it. My husband didnt have to buy his greencard. And most on here didnt either... They were in love and we took them for what they were..poor. I didnt look at my marriage as a gravy train because I was raised by parents who took me over seas and I have travelled and lived extensively overseas.. There was no price and never has been for my commitment or my life..A maher doesnt guarantee love or commitment. Thats something that you cannot buy... and no one is faulting you or your family for demanding a dowry. We dont do that in the US. We dont demand gold or a large sum of money for marriage. Thats a cultural difference.

And FYI, you are perpetuating social myths about single moms and how they live,exist and survive hardships. You are doing a disservice to any American you meet because when you repeat fallacies about American single mothers, you demean us. Take another look at alot of the women on these boards who are moral and did right by their american kids...You didnt get saddled with that burden.. I have an arab daughter whos dad is a complete zero and he camps in the mosque and its islam this and islam that and he gave nothing to his little girl for eid. Its her american family that will do for her this eid.. Take a look at the myths you are perpetuating yourself....I missed the gravy train but I sure havent said all mena people do anything of the sort...

You're just plain ignorant if you think that I said all single American moms are trash. I was simply saying that you're genralizing about a whole region of people and we also have our own problems here too.

And it's always about you...your husband, your children, your hard life, your loss...get over it already!

Constantly talking about my dowry and buying a greencard only proves you're jealous...period.

And I'm done talking to you, because I can already imagine the 10 page post that will follow this one...and it will just repeat the same thing over and over and over

To Bridget, I hope you and your hubby can both kick the smoking habit together and live happily and healthily ever after. That is what the original post was about right?