mena men and smoking

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

wow good information there... thank you!

Rajaa the whole smoking thing is a weird subject. If someones wife smokes, alot of other people will talk bad about her in the neighborhood. Heres the irony. Almost all of my husbands cousins and aunts who are all from the old country and live in France. They all smoke. They not only smoke, they do it in front of everyone. But that doesnt count cause they all live in France. Back home, I suspect that alot of women smoke but they dont do it in public or where anyone can see. The women who openly smoke are the smagria or women who live overseas ( who are stigmatised as loose) or the real lose women who work in the cabarets ( or bars that supposedly dont exist but they do.. where with 1000 dinars you can take a girl home at closing time ( to a hotel not your house) and they are all smoking like chimneys.) This is a ridiculous double standard.. yes well all I know but it exists

A good movie to watch is a movie called ALI ZAOUA about a street kid whos mom is a hooker in one of these clubs in Casablanca

Its like there are all these ridiciulous unwritten rules that no one ever really explains. Good girls dont smoke. Bad girls do. Some Americans are let to smoke. Others are held to other ridiculous standards. Some guys over there are very open and dont nag their american wives and european wives not to smoke...others dont care cause they arent planning on staying with the woman anyway.. others have a double standard where they do what they want and others cant. Its just silly altogether....But its not shocking to me in the least that someone could smoke like a chimney and be pissed that his wife takes a puff... cause thats his WIFE. his honor.. and if she drinks and smokes then hes married one of the cabaret girls in his little pea brain.. Not fair, not right but reality unfortunately

[morocco4ever 63]

They always talk about the high rates of divorce in Western countries where romantic love is touted as the MOST important criteria for marriage, and say the ways of our parents were and still are better.... Make a good match and Love will come later...

Perhaps I am odd, but if you married before love, and love never followed. Then you are basically staying together for convenience sake. My parents were married over 55 years when they both died. Madly in love to the bitter end. Is there any questions as to which kind of marriage I would choose?

To many of us women here in the US this type of arrangement just isn't for us. I knew him for almost a year before we got married. I don't see how one can determine compatability because of a common religion, there is so much more to it than that. I can make my own money, I don't need a man. I am married to my love, not his wallet. I hope he is married to his love, not his maid service with benefits.

[morocco4ever 63]

They always talk about the high rates of divorce in Western countries where romantic love is touted as the MOST important criteria for marriage, and say the ways of our parents were and still are better.... Make a good match and Love will come later...

Perhaps I am odd, but if you married before love, and love never followed. Then you are basically staying together for convenience sake. My parents were married over 55 years when they both died. Madly in love to the bitter end. Is there any questions as to which kind of marriage I would choose?

To many of us women here in the US this type of arrangement just isn't for us. I knew him for almost a year before we got married. I don't see how one can determine compatability because of a common religion, there is so much more to it than that. I can make my own money, I don't need a man. I am married to my love, not his wallet. I hope he is married to his love, not his maid service with benefits.

It wouldn't let me edit this, but I didn't mean Karamella personally when I said "if you married before love". I meant in general, "what if" type thing. Hope that didn't stir #######.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

They always talk about the high rates of divorce in Western countries where romantic love is touted as the MOST important criteria for marriage, and say the ways of our parents were and still are better.... Make a good match and Love will come later...

Perhaps I am odd, but if you married before love, and love never followed. Then you are basically staying together for convenience sake. My parents were married over 55 years when they both died. Madly in love to the bitter end. Is there any questions as to which kind of marriage I would choose?

To many of us women here in the US this type of arrangement just isn't for us. I knew him for almost a year before we got married. I don't see how one can determine compatability because of a common religion, there is so much more to it than that. I can make my own money, I don't need a man. I am married to my love, not his wallet. I hope he is married to his love, not his maid service with benefits.

I think love and passion are super important but when crisis comes, I will tell you Moroccoforever, culture takes a huge role and people arent always on their best behavior. Thats when culture really comes through. I dont think alot of the so called parents are in faithful enduring marriages by the way. I think alot of these so called arranged marriages are momma sitting home while daddy is doing his thing with a mistress or women by the house. I have seen a WHOLE LOT OF THAT when I was in MENA and thats when love really really matters...although the people married to each other arent necessarily the ones in love.. Its often the other woman and the husband who are really in love with the wife long suffering and married out of tradition and convenience. HENCE all the miserable RAI SONGS where the married guy is singing for his dirty sleazy girl he really longs to be with and when he gets a little cash... hes in the cabaret with her instead of HAJJA>

I am not buying that all of these arranged marriages are happy ones especially when I go over there and any club you are in for music.. like a cabaret is wall to wall married men chatting up working girls and bar maids and out to all hours all of the night and telling the WIVES they are in another town away on BUSINESS ( the guy next door to my room who was married to a neighbor of my husband with 2 girls in his room...lets just say taking dication..) I asked my husband where the hell the wife thought he was with him being from town... He told me she thinks he is on a business trip while she is home with the kids.. Id KILL HIM. So much for perfect arranged MENA marriages... Men are men are men anywhere in the world...

HYPOCRISY .. hypocrisy.. hypocrisy....

[morocco4ever 63]

That all sounds so appealing.

I guess I will stick to my horrible western ways and be glad that I married the man I was already in love with. I guess I will expect him to hold high enough moral values to remain true to me. And I guess if he doesn't I will be one of those horrible western woman that will refuse to close my eyes to it, and not accept it, and will get a divorce. How unromantic am I anyway?

BTW I am sure that not all MENA men cheat on their wives while they are home with their kids. I wouldn't doubt that the women do it too. I am sure that there are as many there as there are here. The difference is that I think that a lot of the women here refuse to accept it while it is encouraged to accept it there. In fact, for those that don't ever fall in love with their husbands I doubt they really care, as long as they keep supporting them. I may not know Islam well, but I am 100% sure that this kind of behavior is unacceptable.

I am sure I have stepped on some toes here. Sorry. It's my own personal opinion. Nothing more nothing less. To each his own.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

That all sounds so appealing.

I guess I will stick to my horrible western ways and be glad that I married the man I was already in love with. I guess I will expect him to hold high enough moral values to remain true to me. And I guess if he doesn't I will be one of those horrible western woman that will refuse to close my eyes to it, and not accept it, and will get a divorce. How unromantic am I anyway?

BTW I am sure that not all MENA men cheat on their wives while they are home with their kids. I wouldn't doubt that the women do it too. I am sure that there are as many there as there are here. The difference is that I think that a lot of the women here refuse to accept it while it is encouraged to accept it there. In fact, for those that don't ever fall in love with their husbands I doubt they really care, as long as they keep supporting them. I may not know Islam well, but I am 100% sure that this kind of behavior is unacceptable.

I am sure I have stepped on some toes here. Sorry. It's my own personal opinion. Nothing more nothing less. To each his own.

Of course not everyone does it.. BUT I honestly think that the women put up with alot more than americans do. Meanwhile some of them act ( the wives) all high and mighty and have no clue as to whats going on under their nose. I have a really close Moroccan girl friend who I see all the time and her daughter is the same age as mine and we talk about all kinds of things. She wasnt even aware of the existance of bordellos in her own neighborhood. Its just not talked about between the girls. All those chicks cheb khaled sings about in his songs...? Yep they exist and they are rocking the house in private brothels all over the city where he is from. Ask a woman about them.. no one knows. Ask a guy? He will point them out all over the neighborhood. Its like house calls.. or a woman who will sleep with you for a rate running from 5 to 25 bucks.... The wives of these guys dont ask questions...the guy pays the bills so they shut up and dont look too hard. Thats why you see throngs of guys sitting up all night at coffee shops and not a whole lot of women. The women are home. The women that are ..um...doing other things...wear jilbabs to the locations and um...slip out of them and do their thing...

American women would be slapping gps tags on the bumpers of the guys cars. Guys in general have a whole lot more freedom to come and go and they just dont talk about this stuff in family settings.... And alot of women never know about the lifestyle... What cracks me up is when my North African friends go home for a month by themselves and tell their American or European wife that they are having such a MISERABLE time over there..I just wanna say.. you are not fooling anyone. Any north african city is fun as hell..with lots of things to do if you got the money to get the honey and smoke a little zatla and go hit the cabarets....

Lots of guys do the right thing.. but its not fair to realise that there are some SEVERE double standards going on...

As far as I am concerned after 7 years running around over there....American women have alot more options open to them if the guy is being a pain..Over there,, you get hit and yeah you have some remedy..or you get cheated on..but its nothing like the freedom we have as American women and the legal support and remedies you are offered.

The women over there just simply put up with a hell of alot more than American women to include sometimes husbands leaving the country to work over seas for years and years....and alot more than that..

Cheers

[morocco4ever 63]

That all sounds so appealing.

I guess I will stick to my horrible western ways and be glad that I married the man I was already in love with. I guess I will expect him to hold high enough moral values to remain true to me. And I guess if he doesn't I will be one of those horrible western woman that will refuse to close my eyes to it, and not accept it, and will get a divorce. How unromantic am I anyway?

BTW I am sure that not all MENA men cheat on their wives while they are home with their kids. I wouldn't doubt that the women do it too. I am sure that there are as many there as there are here. The difference is that I think that a lot of the women here refuse to accept it while it is encouraged to accept it there. In fact, for those that don't ever fall in love with their husbands I doubt they really care, as long as they keep supporting them. I may not know Islam well, but I am 100% sure that this kind of behavior is unacceptable.

I am sure I have stepped on some toes here. Sorry. It's my own personal opinion. Nothing more nothing less. To each his own.

Of course not everyone does it.. BUT I honestly think that the women put up with alot more than americans do. Meanwhile some of them act ( the wives) all high and mighty and have no clue as to whats going on under their nose. I have a really close Moroccan girl friend who I see all the time and her daughter is the same age as mine and we talk about all kinds of things. She wasnt even aware of the existance of bordellos in her own neighborhood. Its just not talked about between the girls. All those chicks cheb khaled sings about in his songs...? Yep they exist and they are rocking the house in private brothels all over the city where he is from. Ask a woman about them.. no one knows. Ask a guy? He will point them out all over the neighborhood. Its like house calls.. or a woman who will sleep with you for a rate running from 5 to 25 bucks.... The wives of these guys dont ask questions...the guy pays the bills so they shut up and dont look too hard. Thats why you see throngs of guys sitting up all night at coffee shops and not a whole lot of women. The women are home. The women that are ..um...doing other things...wear jilbabs to the locations and um...slip out of them and do their thing...

American women would be slapping gps tags on the bumpers of the guys cars. Guys in general have a whole lot more freedom to come and go and they just dont talk about this stuff in family settings.... And alot of women never know about the lifestyle... What cracks me up is when my North African friends go home for a month by themselves and tell their American or European wife that they are having such a MISERABLE time over there..I just wanna say.. you are not fooling anyone. Any north african city is fun as hell..with lots of things to do if you got the money to get the honey and smoke a little zatla and go hit the cabarets....

Lots of guys do the right thing.. but its not fair to realise that there are some SEVERE double standards going on...

As far as I am concerned after 7 years running around over there....American women have alot more options open to them if the guy is being a pain..Over there,, you get hit and yeah you have some remedy..or you get cheated on..but its nothing like the freedom we have as American women and the legal support and remedies you are offered.

The women over there just simply put up with a hell of alot more than American women to include sometimes husbands leaving the country to work over seas for years and years....and alot more than that..

Cheers

Am I confused? Are you saying that this goes on in every neighborhood in Morocco? I am running this past my husband. He is curious as to what city they are from.

[Ban Hammer 13,334]

is now the time for

[morocco4ever 63]

is now the time for

It's always time for Charles.

[caybee 21]

nm

Edited December 7, 2008 by caybee

[notime4haterz 0]

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OK, I knew this would be misunderstood, but I didn't expect it to be so misunderstood in this forum. (Muslimahs, and women involved with MENA men...)

#1) I didn't say that love in marriage isn't good. It's GREAT! And I certainly didn't say that I don't love my husband.

#2) In my 30 years of living in the MENA/Muslim community I can count on one hand the number of people from my generation or older (I'm 50) that I have met who claimed they were "in love" before they got married.

#3) Practicing Muslims do not date at all. Traditionally Muslims have little contact with members of the opposite sex who are not Mahram (people they cannot marry) prior to marriage.

#4) Freedom to reject or accept Any and ALL marriage proposals is a fundamental RIGHT for Muslim women. If a woman doesn't consent to marriage, the marriage is invalid. (It happens to women in MENA countries all the time I'm sure, but that doesn't make it Islamic)

To love someone means you know them well. Conservative Muslims do not know members of the opposite sex "well" outside of marriage, with perhaps the exception being relatives who are close enough to be trusted by the family, but are far enough removed to be marriageable. (First cousins getting married is almost the "norm")

In Islam love is not a required element of marriage. Kindness and Mercy are required between husbands and wives. Love is not.

On one of the groups I belong to we did a poll of our husbands asking them if they married us for love or some other reason... and not surprisingly they all gave the "right answer".... OH YEAH BABY I married YOU for LOVE. We then asked them if their parents had married for "love" and many said Of Course Not! My Mom didn't hardly KNOW my Dad when they married!!!! (The woman IS A SAINT!)

A while later (when they had all forgotten the first questions) We asked them if they would allow their sisters to marry a man she had fallen in love with, that was from a questionable or unknown family, low socio-economic class, or a different madthab (religious school of thought) that was in his opinion incompatible with his ideal for his sister...... Most of them started SHOUTING and asking us if we knew something they didn't about their sisters!!!! hahahahahahahaha They were ready to KICK BUTT and TAKE NAMES if some man had gotten close enough to their sister to have her fall in love with them...

Customarily in Egypt (and many other MENA countries) proper couples meet through family connections and with family permission and approval (even if they have been married before!). Typically after only seeing each other maybe 1-2 times they become "engaged" which they call "signing the Kitab (book)".

In Islam this means they are technically married. It's just not consumated until they have the wedding party... (Which in Egypt can be YEARS!) There are many who believe there is no such thing as "engagement" in Islam. You are single or you are married. You may be married without consummating the marriage but you're still married. Once the Kitab has been signed couples are allowed to spend time together, but NOT ALONE. During this time period couples often do fall in love, some don't and never consummate the marriage, in which case the gifts should be returned to the husband, and when it's over, you're technically "divorced" and find it harder to find someone the next time...(if you're the woman you may be considered "damaged goods" or given the reputation of being "difficult" because your marriage never went through).

I have a friend in Egypt who was "engaged" and her "fiance" (technically her husband) was killed in an auto accident while working in Saudia. She inherited his flat because she was legally his wife once they signed the "kitab".

If you are asking for daleel regarding the permissibility of unmarried "couples" being together enough to fall in love prior to marriage... I think I can find a ton of it... Here's some:

"Falling in love is not a pre-condition for marriage in Islam. However, for the purpose of selecting an appropriate mat, the would-be-spouses are allowed to see and/or talk to each other.

Prophet Muhammad (S) recommended:

"When one of you seeks a woman in marriage, and then if he is able to have a look at whom he wishes to marry, let him do so". (Abu Dawood)

The would-be-spouse are allowed to see each other for matrimonial purposes under the direct supervision of their mahram relatives. This provision is expected to be conceived and executed with piety and modesty.

Prophet Muhammad (S) instructed:

"No man has the right to be in the privacy with a woman who is not lawful for him. Satan is their third party unless there is a mahram". (Ahmad)"

From: Marriage and Family in Islam' by Mohammad Mazhar Hussaini

Check out this link to advice to Muslim Men about how to select a wife:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satelli...d=1119503544148

Here is the most famous Hadith about why men marry.. (notice there is NOTHING about love):

Abu Hurayrah, may Allah be pleased with him quotes the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, as saying, "A woman is married for four things, i.e., her wealth, her family status, her beauty, and her religion. So you should marry the religious woman; (otherwise) you will be a loser." (Reported by Al-Bukhari)

I accepted my husband's proposal because of his Islamic Adab (manners) and consistent practice of the faith. The only flaw in his deen that I observed was his smoking, and considering that he started smoking before it was ever discussed as being haram or halal I knew that it wasn't an indicator that he was a "wild child"...he was simply addicted before he knew it was haram, and hadn't been able to break the addiction. Which as I mentioned before puzzled me because I was sure he would have quit for the Sake of Allah, not for me. And I give all credit to Allah SWT that he was able to quit. Alhamdulillah.

In Egypt and amoung many Muslims from all over, marriages are believed to be best and last longest when the primary reason for the marriage is compatability and good manners, not romantic love. They always talk about the high rates of divorce in Western countries where romantic love is touted as the MOST important criteria for marriage, and say the ways of our parents were and still are better.... Make a good match and Love will come later...

K

:thumbs:

[notime4haterz 0]

That all sounds so appealing.

I guess I will stick to my horrible western ways and be glad that I married the man I was already in love with. I guess I will expect him to hold high enough moral values to remain true to me. And I guess if he doesn't I will be one of those horrible western woman that will refuse to close my eyes to it, and not accept it, and will get a divorce. How unromantic am I anyway?

BTW I am sure that not all MENA men cheat on their wives while they are home with their kids. I wouldn't doubt that the women do it too. I am sure that there are as many there as there are here. The difference is that I think that a lot of the women here refuse to accept it while it is encouraged to accept it there. In fact, for those that don't ever fall in love with their husbands I doubt they really care, as long as they keep supporting them. I may not know Islam well, but I am 100% sure that this kind of behavior is unacceptable.

I am sure I have stepped on some toes here. Sorry. It's my own personal opinion. Nothing more nothing less. To each his own.

Of course not everyone does it.. BUT I honestly think that the women put up with alot more than americans do. Meanwhile some of them act ( the wives) all high and mighty and have no clue as to whats going on under their nose. I have a really close Moroccan girl friend who I see all the time and her daughter is the same age as mine and we talk about all kinds of things. She wasnt even aware of the existance of bordellos in her own neighborhood. Its just not talked about between the girls. All those chicks cheb khaled sings about in his songs...? Yep they exist and they are rocking the house in private brothels all over the city where he is from. Ask a woman about them.. no one knows. Ask a guy? He will point them out all over the neighborhood. Its like house calls.. or a woman who will sleep with you for a rate running from 5 to 25 bucks.... The wives of these guys dont ask questions...the guy pays the bills so they shut up and dont look too hard. Thats why you see throngs of guys sitting up all night at coffee shops and not a whole lot of women. The women are home. The women that are ..um...doing other things...wear jilbabs to the locations and um...slip out of them and do their thing...

American women would be slapping gps tags on the bumpers of the guys cars. Guys in general have a whole lot more freedom to come and go and they just dont talk about this stuff in family settings.... And alot of women never know about the lifestyle... What cracks me up is when my North African friends go home for a month by themselves and tell their American or European wife that they are having such a MISERABLE time over there..I just wanna say.. you are not fooling anyone. Any north african city is fun as hell..with lots of things to do if you got the money to get the honey and smoke a little zatla and go hit the cabarets....

Lots of guys do the right thing.. but its not fair to realise that there are some SEVERE double standards going on...

As far as I am concerned after 7 years running around over there....American women have alot more options open to them if the guy is being a pain..Over there,, you get hit and yeah you have some remedy..or you get cheated on..but its nothing like the freedom we have as American women and the legal support and remedies you are offered.

The women over there just simply put up with a hell of alot more than American women to include sometimes husbands leaving the country to work over seas for years and years....and alot more than that..

Cheers

I don't get some people. You have nothing good or positive to say about MENA culture and it's like every guy MENA is a terrible man and maybe, if we're lucky, a few are really decent...so why marry from there??? You have the right to choose a spouse from anywhere on this planet. If I didn't know anything about MENA men, and I was reading some of the posts on this region, I would run in the other direction and never even look at a map of MENA let alone any man from there!!!

And I don't know where everyone lives, but I see SO MANY American women who are suffering a million times more badly than MENA women. They are abandoned, neglected, with no family or male relatives to take care of them. They have abusive husbands, lazy husbands, unemployed husbands... deadbeap dads not paying child support... working like a slave for meager wages to feed their kids, ALONE. These women are drugged up on anti-depressants, or drinking booze everyday to forget their stress, worries, and problem. They try dating and going out to meet men and they either get scammed, used, or rejected. Where exactly in the US is life so wonderful? On the contrary, people are getting unemployed left and right and things are getting expensive. Even in upscale neighborhoods, our homes are getting broken into and we're being robbed by poor people on the other side of town (because they want nice gifts for x-mas without paying for them).

I see a double standard everywhere...and smoking would be the least of my worries. If he's a good man, then he'll be willing to stop smoking to make you happy, because that's what good men do...they try and keep their wives happy.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

That all sounds so appealing.

I guess I will stick to my horrible western ways and be glad that I married the man I was already in love with. I guess I will expect him to hold high enough moral values to remain true to me. And I guess if he doesn't I will be one of those horrible western woman that will refuse to close my eyes to it, and not accept it, and will get a divorce. How unromantic am I anyway?

BTW I am sure that not all MENA men cheat on their wives while they are home with their kids. I wouldn't doubt that the women do it too. I am sure that there are as many there as there are here. The difference is that I think that a lot of the women here refuse to accept it while it is encouraged to accept it there. In fact, for those that don't ever fall in love with their husbands I doubt they really care, as long as they keep supporting them. I may not know Islam well, but I am 100% sure that this kind of behavior is unacceptable.

I am sure I have stepped on some toes here. Sorry. It's my own personal opinion. Nothing more nothing less. To each his own.

Of course not everyone does it.. BUT I honestly think that the women put up with alot more than americans do. Meanwhile some of them act ( the wives) all high and mighty and have no clue as to whats going on under their nose. I have a really close Moroccan girl friend who I see all the time and her daughter is the same age as mine and we talk about all kinds of things. She wasnt even aware of the existance of bordellos in her own neighborhood. Its just not talked about between the girls. All those chicks cheb khaled sings about in his songs...? Yep they exist and they are rocking the house in private brothels all over the city where he is from. Ask a woman about them.. no one knows. Ask a guy? He will point them out all over the neighborhood. Its like house calls.. or a woman who will sleep with you for a rate running from 5 to 25 bucks.... The wives of these guys dont ask questions...the guy pays the bills so they shut up and dont look too hard. Thats why you see throngs of guys sitting up all night at coffee shops and not a whole lot of women. The women are home. The women that are ..um...doing other things...wear jilbabs to the locations and um...slip out of them and do their thing...

American women would be slapping gps tags on the bumpers of the guys cars. Guys in general have a whole lot more freedom to come and go and they just dont talk about this stuff in family settings.... And alot of women never know about the lifestyle... What cracks me up is when my North African friends go home for a month by themselves and tell their American or European wife that they are having such a MISERABLE time over there..I just wanna say.. you are not fooling anyone. Any north african city is fun as hell..with lots of things to do if you got the money to get the honey and smoke a little zatla and go hit the cabarets....

Lots of guys do the right thing.. but its not fair to realise that there are some SEVERE double standards going on...

As far as I am concerned after 7 years running around over there....American women have alot more options open to them if the guy is being a pain..Over there,, you get hit and yeah you have some remedy..or you get cheated on..but its nothing like the freedom we have as American women and the legal support and remedies you are offered.

The women over there just simply put up with a hell of alot more than American women to include sometimes husbands leaving the country to work over seas for years and years....and alot more than that..

Cheers

Am I confused? Are you saying that this goes on in every neighborhood in Morocco? I am running this past my husband. He is curious as to what city they are from.

In Casablanca,its cabarets,house, flat rentals,discotechs and rent a wife( the fly in Saudis) and street girls. In Rabat, its discos and houses...private bordels. In Oujda the same...except they get a heavy frontier trade ( even though they are not supposed to) In Tangiers and Marrakech and Agadir its alot of sex tourism and a heady mix of all kinds of things.. In Agadir,they had a huge scandal involving a belgian reporter. I am sure you remember In marrakesh,its always been known...The smaller the city, the more likely really small house bordels and not houses like larger bordels....Close to military installations..its very very large house bordels... In Algiers its more hotel, cabaret and house bordels. In Oran and the west its all three with an entire neighborhood with house flats or private bordels much like Casablanca. In other words,,, all the wacky stuff you just cant see is going on readily over there.... its just that they are a heck of a lot better in hiding it and tourists unless they are looking for it, dont know what they are looking for and why the heck would you? They have drug trade, sex trade all the stuff that we have in the USA. They have unregulated houses by the score and private girls who flip as students and maybe do it part time.Even on a bad day, its alot cheaper and easier to "date" over there than here because here everything is expensive....if you go there with western money you can live like a king or queen no matter what you are looking for.

There is a whole underground culture in every mena culture that exists to provide relief to people and its adapted itself to get around social restrictions and police restrictions. Whats funny is before you know about it, you cant see it. After you know what to look for, you see everything. Girls you marry or would ever considering marry dont go to hotel bars or discotechs and if anyone knows they lost their viriginity its alll over. Here in the USA, with nickel nights and keg parties... its sodom and gomorrah ( LOL) and we are just not conditioned to lets say have ALL OUR SEX in cars or parks but if you have 11 brothers and no money for 2 hotel rooms, you figure out all kinds of things. Forbidden love is in songs by rai singers....and they talk about these situations. Thats why "rai" in particular is not really heard around the family in some families because of the things they talk about.

You can get EVERYTHING in most parts of MENA that you get in VEGAS. The new VEGAS in the crescent is Syria because of all the underage Iraqis working there. Egypt has sharm el sheik and Cairo.. well Cairo has anything you want of any persuasion. Syria is the newest hotspot for tourism simply because the age of the girls and the desperation is pulling alot of the gulf arabs that used to do fly ins to Morocco.If just for fun,visit a house disco or a "cabaret or non tourist based bar at night. Once you see it, then you will start really recognising all kinds of things.. Its kind of fun, knowing that its just not that obvious... but its there...in every town...They just have to hide it..

Here is a house bordel in Morocco video clip ( I wont inbed cause its slightly explicit (not real bad but bad enough)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R_G7r0LchU

This is a house brothel ( or a house that they flip trade there)

Open bordel in Morocco

You can see the girls sitting in doorways in the beginning of the videos. Its like a district of houses but you have to know someone to know where they are

Syria

Bordels in Sousse Tunisia..Open doors and an entire neighborhood of girls standing in doors

Life over there is just like life everywhere...Everything is just more discreet and quiet cause its very very against the law there. The videos from Morocco and Tunisia are homemade so you have to kind of watch them for a while to see things.. Its really surprising...Everything we have here they have there in different forms....

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

That all sounds so appealing.

I guess I will stick to my horrible western ways and be glad that I married the man I was already in love with. I guess I will expect him to hold high enough moral values to remain true to me. And I guess if he doesn't I will be one of those horrible western woman that will refuse to close my eyes to it, and not accept it, and will get a divorce. How unromantic am I anyway?

BTW I am sure that not all MENA men cheat on their wives while they are home with their kids. I wouldn't doubt that the women do it too. I am sure that there are as many there as there are here. The difference is that I think that a lot of the women here refuse to accept it while it is encouraged to accept it there. In fact, for those that don't ever fall in love with their husbands I doubt they really care, as long as they keep supporting them. I may not know Islam well, but I am 100% sure that this kind of behavior is unacceptable.

I am sure I have stepped on some toes here. Sorry. It's my own personal opinion. Nothing more nothing less. To each his own.

Of course not everyone does it.. BUT I honestly think that the women put up with alot more than americans do. Meanwhile some of them act ( the wives) all high and mighty and have no clue as to whats going on under their nose. I have a really close Moroccan girl friend who I see all the time and her daughter is the same age as mine and we talk about all kinds of things. She wasnt even aware of the existance of bordellos in her own neighborhood. Its just not talked about between the girls. All those chicks cheb khaled sings about in his songs...? Yep they exist and they are rocking the house in private brothels all over the city where he is from. Ask a woman about them.. no one knows. Ask a guy? He will point them out all over the neighborhood. Its like house calls.. or a woman who will sleep with you for a rate running from 5 to 25 bucks.... The wives of these guys dont ask questions...the guy pays the bills so they shut up and dont look too hard. Thats why you see throngs of guys sitting up all night at coffee shops and not a whole lot of women. The women are home. The women that are ..um...doing other things...wear jilbabs to the locations and um...slip out of them and do their thing...

American women would be slapping gps tags on the bumpers of the guys cars. Guys in general have a whole lot more freedom to come and go and they just dont talk about this stuff in family settings.... And alot of women never know about the lifestyle... What cracks me up is when my North African friends go home for a month by themselves and tell their American or European wife that they are having such a MISERABLE time over there..I just wanna say.. you are not fooling anyone. Any north african city is fun as hell..with lots of things to do if you got the money to get the honey and smoke a little zatla and go hit the cabarets....

Lots of guys do the right thing.. but its not fair to realise that there are some SEVERE double standards going on...

As far as I am concerned after 7 years running around over there....American women have alot more options open to them if the guy is being a pain..Over there,, you get hit and yeah you have some remedy..or you get cheated on..but its nothing like the freedom we have as American women and the legal support and remedies you are offered.

The women over there just simply put up with a hell of alot more than American women to include sometimes husbands leaving the country to work over seas for years and years....and alot more than that..

Cheers

Am I confused? Are you saying that this goes on in every neighborhood in Morocco? I am running this past my husband. He is curious as to what city they are from.

In Casablanca,its cabarets,house, flat rentals,discotechs and rent a wife( the fly in Saudis) and street girls. In Rabat, its discos and houses...private bordels. In Oujda the same...except they get a heavy frontier trade ( even though they are not supposed to) In Tangiers and Marrakech and Agadir its alot of sex tourism and a heady mix of all kinds of things.. In Agadir,they had a huge scandal involving a belgian reporter. I am sure you remember In marrakesh,its always been known...The smaller the city, the more likely really small house bordels and not houses like larger bordels....Close to military installations..its very very large house bordels... In Algiers its more hotel, cabaret and house bordels. In Oran and the west its all three with an entire neighborhood with house flats or private bordels much like Casablanca. In other words,,, all the wacky stuff you just cant see is going on readily over there.... its just that they are a heck of a lot better in hiding it and tourists unless they are looking for it, dont know what they are looking for and why the heck would you? They have drug trade, sex trade all the stuff that we have in the USA. They have unregulated houses by the score and private girls who flip as students and maybe do it part time.Even on a bad day, its alot cheaper and easier to "date" over there than here because here everything is expensive....if you go there with western money you can live like a king or queen no matter what you are looking for.

There is a whole underground culture in every mena culture that exists to provide relief to people and its adapted itself to get around social restrictions and police restrictions. Whats funny is before you know about it, you cant see it. After you know what to look for, you see everything. Girls you marry or would ever considering marry dont go to hotel bars or discotechs and if anyone knows they lost their viriginity its alll over. Here in the USA, with nickel nights and keg parties... its sodom and gomorrah ( LOL) and we are just not conditioned to lets say have ALL OUR SEX in cars or parks but if you have 11 brothers and no money for 2 hotel rooms, you figure out all kinds of things. Forbidden love is in songs by rai singers....and they talk about these situations. Thats why "rai" in particular is not really heard around the family in some families because of the things they talk about.

You can get EVERYTHING in most parts of MENA that you get in VEGAS. The new VEGAS in the crescent is Syria because of all the underage Iraqis working there. Egypt has sharm el sheik and Cairo.. well Cairo has anything you want of any persuasion. Syria is the newest hotspot for tourism simply because the age of the girls and the desperation is pulling alot of the gulf arabs that used to do fly ins to Morocco.If just for fun,visit a house disco or a "cabaret or non tourist based bar at night. Once you see it, then you will start really recognising all kinds of things.. Its kind of fun, knowing that its just not that obvious... but its there...in every town...They just have to hide it..

Here is a house bordel in Morocco video clip ( I wont inbed cause its slightly explicit (not real bad but bad enough)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R_G7r0LchU

This is a house brothel ( or a house that they flip trade there)

Open bordel in Morocco

You can see the girls sitting in doorways in the beginning of the videos. Its like a district of houses but you have to know someone to know where they are

Syria

Bordels in Sousse Tunisia..Open doors and an entire neighborhood of girls standing in doors

Life over there is just like life everywhere...Everything is just more discreet and quiet cause its very very against the law there. The videos from Morocco and Tunisia are homemade so you have to kind of watch them for a while to see things.. Its really surprising...Everything we have here they have there in different forms....

Just to put this in proper context... People are people all over the world. Men are gonna do what they are going to do all over the world no matter what laws you put on them.Its hypocritical for anyone from over there to start talking about how decadent our society is and not recognise that their society has exactly the same ills except they are covert and released differently. Just cause you dont see things, doesnt mean they dont exist. Bigger cities have more of it.. smaller cities less but it still exists. Some cities are very well known for it.. Its always existed over there just like it exists over here ...so its not a run down of a society. Its just something that maybe if you are a tourist you arent aware of.

The whole smoking thing? Men dont want their wives to smoke even if they smoke like a chimney because its a reflection of them. Women working in bars and cabarets smoke all the time and lots of normal women smoke but it carries with them a bad stigma. If a guy does things its ok.. Of course there are open minded men everywhere that are ok with stuff....but if their mom wouldnt do it in public, or they wouldnt want their sister doing it in public, chances are you shouldnt be ( the sister rule applies)

But for anyone over there to act like the USA is soooooooooooo bad and nothing is going on over there is a bunch of bumpkiss. Its hypocrisy thats so annoying ...not the acts... Its everywhere and there is good and bad everywhere..and everything that exists stateside is over there too

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

That all sounds so appealing.

I guess I will stick to my horrible western ways and be glad that I married the man I was already in love with. I guess I will expect him to hold high enough moral values to remain true to me. And I guess if he doesn't I will be one of those horrible western woman that will refuse to close my eyes to it, and not accept it, and will get a divorce. How unromantic am I anyway?

BTW I am sure that not all MENA men cheat on their wives while they are home with their kids. I wouldn't doubt that the women do it too. I am sure that there are as many there as there are here. The difference is that I think that a lot of the women here refuse to accept it while it is encouraged to accept it there. In fact, for those that don't ever fall in love with their husbands I doubt they really care, as long as they keep supporting them. I may not know Islam well, but I am 100% sure that this kind of behavior is unacceptable.

I am sure I have stepped on some toes here. Sorry. It's my own personal opinion. Nothing more nothing less. To each his own.

Of course not everyone does it.. BUT I honestly think that the women put up with alot more than americans do. Meanwhile some of them act ( the wives) all high and mighty and have no clue as to whats going on under their nose. I have a really close Moroccan girl friend who I see all the time and her daughter is the same age as mine and we talk about all kinds of things. She wasnt even aware of the existance of bordellos in her own neighborhood. Its just not talked about between the girls. All those chicks cheb khaled sings about in his songs...? Yep they exist and they are rocking the house in private brothels all over the city where he is from. Ask a woman about them.. no one knows. Ask a guy? He will point them out all over the neighborhood. Its like house calls.. or a woman who will sleep with you for a rate running from 5 to 25 bucks.... The wives of these guys dont ask questions...the guy pays the bills so they shut up and dont look too hard. Thats why you see throngs of guys sitting up all night at coffee shops and not a whole lot of women. The women are home. The women that are ..um...doing other things...wear jilbabs to the locations and um...slip out of them and do their thing...

American women would be slapping gps tags on the bumpers of the guys cars. Guys in general have a whole lot more freedom to come and go and they just dont talk about this stuff in family settings.... And alot of women never know about the lifestyle... What cracks me up is when my North African friends go home for a month by themselves and tell their American or European wife that they are having such a MISERABLE time over there..I just wanna say.. you are not fooling anyone. Any north african city is fun as hell..with lots of things to do if you got the money to get the honey and smoke a little zatla and go hit the cabarets....

Lots of guys do the right thing.. but its not fair to realise that there are some SEVERE double standards going on...

As far as I am concerned after 7 years running around over there....American women have alot more options open to them if the guy is being a pain..Over there,, you get hit and yeah you have some remedy..or you get cheated on..but its nothing like the freedom we have as American women and the legal support and remedies you are offered.

The women over there just simply put up with a hell of alot more than American women to include sometimes husbands leaving the country to work over seas for years and years....and alot more than that..

Cheers

I don't get some people. You have nothing good or positive to say about MENA culture and it's like every guy MENA is a terrible man and maybe, if we're lucky, a few are really decent...so why marry from there??? You have the right to choose a spouse from anywhere on this planet. If I didn't know anything about MENA men, and I was reading some of the posts on this region, I would run in the other direction and never even look at a map of MENA let alone any man from there!!!

And I don't know where everyone lives, but I see SO MANY American women who are suffering a million times more badly than MENA women. They are abandoned, neglected, with no family or male relatives to take care of them. They have abusive husbands, lazy husbands, unemployed husbands... deadbeap dads not paying child support... working like a slave for meager wages to feed their kids, ALONE. These women are drugged up on anti-depressants, or drinking booze everyday to forget their stress, worries, and problem. They try dating and going out to meet men and they either get scammed, used, or rejected. Where exactly in the US is life so wonderful? On the contrary, people are getting unemployed left and right and things are getting expensive. Even in upscale neighborhoods, our homes are getting broken into and we're being robbed by poor people on the other side of town (because they want nice gifts for x-mas without paying for them).

I see a double standard everywhere...and smoking would be the least of my worries. If he's a good man, then he'll be willing to stop smoking to make you happy, because that's what good men do...they try and keep their wives happy.

Lets turn this around.

Whats are the prospects for lets say the average mena woman to get remarried if she gets divorced?You are generalising about AMERICAN WOMEN. Whos to say that they are not wonderful moms doing a good job by their kids? How do you know that all mena men both here and there are such fabulous dads living up to their responsibilites? At least in the USA , a woman whos lost her virginity or is divorced can remarry pretty easily.

Dont you think you are generalising about American women and our needs and wants? If a woman is poor here she has alot more opportunity to help herself out of prostitution..If you get stuck doing that over there you cant get yourself out of it. They dont have the social services networks we have. Here in the US you can rebuild your life. You are generalising like hell about all american women as if we are ALL drugged up or drinking...Like no Americans have great husbands that are good to them... You maybe know the mena girls with 10000 dollars worth of gold...but there is a whole underbelly of society in mena that slips through the cracks and its hell on earth to be suffering alone with kids over there... there is no afdc...if you dont have the money... you cant get 400 a month in cash assistance and food stamps.. Thats who is hooking in a lot of parts of North Africa because they have kids and families to feed and very little jobs.

You also said they give custody to "crack whores" in the USA. I think you have a very skewed view of Americans. I know tons of Americans who do right by their kids and are great parents. Life isnt paradise in Mena even if in your life, you sit around getting 10,0000 dollars worth of gold and worshipped for your blondness (sic)

Life is the same there as here with alot of the same social ills....