How Free is Vietnam?

[Melrose Plant 1]

I plucked this from another thread because I thought it was interesting, but it was really getting off the subject (see discussion below).

QUOTEs from People Other than Me:

". . .This process is amazing to me. On the fraudulent people. I never even thought of that as a way to make money. I understand that America is susposed to be the home of the free and the brave. For some reason I do not feel so free. I felt more free in Vietnam then I do here and I was a US Marine trained to hate the Commies. My first trip to Vietnam really changed my view on all that garbage the fed us. I am sure there are some problems but from my point of view in my limited time there I did not see many. Other then the traffic and the conditions of the roads."

_______________________

"This is a little off topic but Vietnam does have it's real lack of "human rights" problems because of the communism. I also feel free when I am here but we are foreigners here and the government here is really bad to its own people. My fiancee was harassed and threatened by cops last night and basically had her motorbike stolen from her for no reason. They said she wasn't wearing her helmet but she was OFF the bike at the time. Now she has to pay them daily for 30 days to get her motorbike back."

So, how free is Vietnam? When we go visit, it feels in many ways like stepping back in time to 1950s America. A time when a family was more structured. A time when everybody sat down to eat dinner all at once. A time before the nanny state. Now they've got the stupid helmet law, but that's one of the few exceptions. Can you imagine trying to ride four on a motorcycle over here? Your neighbors would probably turn you into DHS. No, Vietnamese pretty much just do whatever they want, or whatever they can get away with. They are all capitalists in their hearts. I am not saying anything new to any of you. You know this already, having all been to Vietnam. It's probably pretty much the same with other SE Asian countries. And the Chinese.

The biggest problem I see with the way things are is that corruption, bribing, cheating, and cutting corners is a way of life there. One might argue that it is also a way of life here, but that is largely myth or urban legend. No one I personally know has made a living based upon any of those things. By contrast, pretty much everyone who has any money at all in Vietnam has made it by doing one or more of those things, including my own wife. This, I believe, is due in large part to the Communist system of government. It encourages those who have even a little bit of power or authority to be corrupt. This is because taking just a few kickbacks or bribes can literally lift a civil servant out of poverty and put them squarely in the middle class and a life of relative comfort. You and I would probably do it too. And let's not even talk about the amount of red tape there is if you want to start a legitimate business there. They have a committee (and a stamp) for everything, and none of these committees does anything in a timely fashion.

I cannot speak intelligently about political freedom there. No one in my family ever talks about politics. Ever. They feel there is no reason to worry about it, since there is nothing they can do about it. I do know that a certain member of my family used to like to go hunting somewhere south of Hanoi. He doesn't do that any more. It has become too risky. Somewhere, a couple of shotguns (expensive ones, if I know this guy) are hidden deep within the bowels of somebody's house somewhere, waiting for the day they can come out without fear of really bad things happening with the police.

That's my approximately 320 VND on freedom in Vietnam. Feel free (no pun intended) to put in your approximately 320 VND.

[Teacher Mark 53]

My poor, misguided Brother in law just had his bike impounded because of the helmet law! I think they threw him in jail for a night too. $60.00 to make the problem go away.

The corruption is definitely a problem, unless one uses it to their advantage! I've often wondered how dangerous it could actually be there though. I mean if I really pissed someone off, how easy would it be to make me "go away"?

[Jack & Xuan 0]

Is bribery really corruption? If we eat at a resturant and we tip the waitress then go back the next day, do you think the waitress will do as good a job or better knowing that she is likely to be tiped again and maybe more? Why then is it a problem to "tip" someone there to help you out. We want a police report and it cost $100 to get it in 3 months BUT if we "tip" the police we can get it the next day. How is that wrong? We have the exact same thing in the states. I want to get a package to my friend. I can use the postal service, and it will take 3to 5 days. Or I can use Fed-ex and pay more to get it there by 8:00am the next day. Now you are not forced to use Fed-ex or "tip" the police and you can still get your result but, if you want special treatment, then you "tip" or pay more in the case of Fed-ex. It is like the saying goes, " you get what you pay for" In many ways America has become more of a comunist government the Vietnam. Treat everyone the same no matter if they can pull their weight or not. Wellfare for everyone. You get headaches, ok here is a disability check so you do not have to even try to earn your way.

I don't know, but something will have to give here in America soon. A few can not be forced to pay for the many and it go on forever. Sooner or later the Tax payer will say, Hey King George I think we will just start our own country. Where have I heard that before?

[Anh map 2,098]

My 320 VND: In my travels to Vietnam I've been struck by the similarities with what I've seen in post communism eastern Europe with regard to hoi lo, etc.. I am impressed with the energy and enthusiasm of most of the folks that I have met during my travels to VN. Everyone seems focused on the future.

My in-laws don't talk politics either.

[luckytxn 2,264]

That is total bunk. I was writing two articles and was about to submit one of them but was pleaded with not too because it was supposed to be too critical of the Vietnamese government. I didn't see it that way and even tried to change things in it like dates and times and places but still was asked not to submit them. I was told if I did and the Government there did not like it then they would make my new family suffer badly. Also while I was there last time I talked to several and was told that if they pissed off the officials they would put a bullet in their head. Does this sound free? No it isn't. I can name many examples but next time in Vietnam try to actually look and see around you and maybe talk to others.

Corruption is not freedom. It is a means to allow the ones with money to do as they please and the poor to suffer needlessly. Now it may seem to us that Vietnam is free as they love us there and treat us well. In fact twice I was amused that I could do something so effortlessly and a regular VN could not. The officials want us there so bad that they will do anything for us. I declined twice to have lunch with one local official as I don't like commies. When I went to the seaside one day I saw a half a million dollar Ferrari and asked who's car it was. It was an officials car. How did he earn it? We know how. The bad roads and totally bankrupt infrastructure is due to this corruption.

Now if I had written that article about my government it would be nothing and I can do so freely but when a government will destroy someone for doing what I can do freely then that is not freedom. I can go on and on and have been to many countries in Asia and Europe and elsewhere and I can definitely say that Vietnam is not near to being free.

[What's next 1]

Just some thoughts.

how about the lobbyist and the campaign donations? bribary is everywhere. we have become conditioned to accept these forms of bribary. i believe anyone can be bribed, it's usually a question of how much and will i be caught.

Being harassed by the police for no reason in vietnam? I guess none of us are black.

Corruption, cheating, lying? It also applies to Democratic nations. look at Enron, look at Bear Stearns. they ripped off millions.

Communism has nothing to do with it. most ppl in vietnam don't even consider themselves communist. they don't even know the political principles of communism. i don't even know. they probably never heard of Marx.

I agree vnese are capitailist at heart, to a certain extent even greedy. everyone's always trying to make a buck. they wanna make a buck off the guy who made a buck.

Maybe i should study up on vn history, maybe i can understand better.

[What's next 1]

we get the feeling of being free in vietnam because we are there on vacation. we have more money than them. our money is worth more. everyone likes you, everyone is catering to you. that's why we feel more free. we don't have to make tough decisions in vn. we don't have to worry about 30 year morgages. bia om's are cheap in vn. life is good. maybe, i should have left that last part out.

As far as human rights or rights in general, not that much of a difference for us common folk, in either country. Sure they don't have freedom of speech of speech, but i don't recall ever invoking that right here. you can go to whichever mosque, chucrch or temple you please. Both countries get to vote. I get the right to bear arms here, point for vietnam. Fair and speedy trails? i'm not OJ. oh, can't forget about the 5th ammendment. jokes aside, if you're just a common joe with no intentions of dethrowning bac ho, you should be fine. no cruel and unusual punishment, point US. i call it a tie for all intensive purposes.

[Jack & Xuan 0]

This is a good thread. I agree that in America we may be able to feel safe and think that we are free. The next time you are feeling free try standing on the corner of a street and taking a pee. Or write a letter that suggest even in just a very slight way you wish to harm a political figure in America. Or walk on a plane and just walk near my seat on the way to the toilet and say hi to me. My name is Jack. See how long we remain free. I also know that you can get a bullet in your head for just being in the wrong place at the wrong "drive by time". With all that being said, we as Americans do have more opprotunity to succeed as long as we do not stick our heads up to high. If we are to successful, like Bill Gates, the government will call you to answer for it. Those that choose to take advantage of opprotunities as they are presented do well in many countries. This country used to be free and over time much of that has been removed. Our officials drive very nice cars too and all of us are made to use a seat belt or be harassed by the police.

I am not saying that Vietnam is the best country in the world and may not rank as hi as America.

I enjoy all of the opinions expressed here.

[luckytxn 2,264]

You do realize that when you are voting for one party only and no other is allowed then the right to vote is worthless? No one invokes the right to free speech here? Get off it. We invoke the right to free speech daily here. Each and everyone of us. Human rights is very important to us here. Just being able to get a lawyer and get the process moving quickly and finding out what one is charged with is something that makes us here very important. There if make someone in the party mad they can grab you and throw away the key. No trial no lawyer no charges, nothing. People here need to wake up and open your eyes.

[Teacher Mark 53]

Well look what you've done now James! You've got the natives all riled up!

Vietnam is what it is. It's their Country. If the people want change they will bring it (see Thailand). I'm pretty sure we tried to impose our will in Vietnam a few years ago. It didn't work out too well for us.

Remember, when in Rome.......

Edited December 4, 2008 by Joe Six-Pack

[Jack & Xuan 0]

Well look what you've done now James! You've got the natives all riled up!

Vietnam is what it is. It's their Country. If the people want change they will bring it (see Thailand). I'm pretty sure we tried to impose our will in Vietnam a few years ago. It didn't work out too well for us.

Remember, when in Rome.......

Now now, Don't blame James. I am the one that wrote this on another thread. James just "plucked" if off that thread and did the right thing and started a new thread. I should have been so courtious as to do that myslef. I do think it would be intresting and fun to all meet on messenger and debate this. And I agree with you completely Mr. Six-Pack. It is their Country and I think they have some things right. We have many things right here in America too though.

My comment at the top of this thread or any of the others is not ment to rile anyone up. It is only my observations and opinion. I do love and respect the debate though.

[Teacher Mark 53]

Well look what you've done now James! You've got the natives all riled up!

Vietnam is what it is. It's their Country. If the people want change they will bring it (see Thailand). I'm pretty sure we tried to impose our will in Vietnam a few years ago. It didn't work out too well for us.

Remember, when in Rome.......

Now now, Don't blame James. I am the one that wrote this on another thread. James just "plucked" if off that thread and did the right thing and started a new thread. I should have been so courtious as to do that myslef. I do think it would be intresting and fun to all meet on messenger and debate this. And I agree with you completely Mr. Six-Pack. It is their Country and I think they have some things right. We have many things right here in America too though.

My comment at the top of this thread or any of the others is not ment to rile anyone up. It is only my observations and opinion. I do love and respect the debate though.

O.K., dual credit then!

I remember standing in front of a picture of "Uncle Ho" when I was there. I thought "Boy you certainly showed us what for, but who really won"?

[What's next 1]

You do realize that when you are voting for one party only and no other is allowed then the right to vote is worthless? No one invokes the right to free speech here? Get off it. We invoke the right to free speech daily here. Each and everyone of us. Human rights is very important to us here. Just being able to get a lawyer and get the process moving quickly and finding out what one is charged with is something that makes us here very important. There if make someone in the party mad they can grab you and throw away the key. No trial no lawyer no charges, nothing. People here need to wake up and open your eyes.

I do reliase that when i'm voting for one party, my right to vote is worthless. That's why I don't vote in the primaries. Obama of Clinton, same difference. I also believe my one vote does not make a difference. I also believe everyone is not created equal. I don't mean to be cynical. I appriciate the media is not controlled or sensored by the gov't. i like watching scott van peldt and copper anderson. dam if those two were censored. Maybe i take some of these rights for granted and don't even appreciate them, but if comparing freedom and rights, i think its a draw. On paper, US wins outright, but in reality and everyday life, it's the same.

As far as making someone in the party mad and locking you up and trowing away they key, no trail, no lawyer, no charges. I think someone should look into Gitmo as well.

[Melrose Plant 1]

Wow, this worked out better than I thought! Thanks everyone for the input.

I have two further comments: First, I see that two people in our very own little family have run afoul of the helmet law. You know, the fine is SUPPOSED to be 200,000 VND per violation. Something went very wrong with this whole law. It started out with good intentions. Too many people are killed or injured each year in motorbike accidents. But as applied, the law is nothing but a joke. Nobody cares if you're wearing a proper helmet. Nobody cares if you're wearing it correctly. My nephew accidentally dropped his helmet on the tile floor when I was there last. The shell BROKE CLEAN IN HALF! In true Vietnamese tradition, he just super-glued the thing back together, and as far as I know, is still wearing it today, with full police approval, probably with no chin strap. What a waste of time, not to mention the many more chances of police abuse.

Second, I don't feel I explained myself enough about corruption being a way of life. Sure, we know we have to bribe certain officials to get certain things done in a timely fashion in Vietnam. But that's not really what I'm talking about here. Let me give you an example:

Do you know sort of how a building gets built in Vietnam? I didn't either, until my wife explained it to me. You see, once the blueprints are drawn up and ground is broken, the architect (who probably has money out of his own pocket invested in this thing somehow) says to himself, "You know, I had to undercut my competitors so much and pay all these officials, I'm just not making a whole lot of money on this job. I bet if I cut that expensive aggregate out of the concrete by 5%, it wouldn't make any difference, and nobody would notice."

Then the engineer thinks, "Man, that architect is making a lot of money on this job by screwing with the concrete. How come I can't make money like that? I bet we could short each column once piece of that really expensive big steel rerod, and it would still be good enough, and nobody would notice."

Then the general foreman for the construction company thinks, "Man, that smug architect, and that damned arrogant engineer are making a lot of money off this job. Why should they get so much money just for sitting on their asses in an office? I bet we could take some more steel out of this place here and there, sell it, and nobody would notice."

Then the electrical foreman thinks, "Man, all these other people are finding ways to make extra money off this job. That's not fair. I bet if we downsized the wire a little bit, nobody would notice."

Then the lower worker bees do the same thing on a smaller scale.

OK, we know that corners get cut sometimes in the good old USA. Every once in a while, somebody gets hurt or killed because of it. But it doesn't happen anywhere near to the extent I just described. I've worked construction for 12 years now, and I don't know of ANYONE who would purposefully build something in a substandard or unsafe manner to make an extra buck. If it happens, it's at a much higher level and we probably don't even know about it. Do people steal stuff from a jobsite? Of course. But that's not the same as what I described earlier. No one here really wants to sign their name to work that is substandard on purpose.

[aidan80 9]

I plucked this from another thread because I thought it was interesting, but it was really getting off the subject (see discussion below).

QUOTEs from People Other than Me:

". . .This process is amazing to me. On the fraudulent people. I never even thought of that as a way to make money. I understand that America is susposed to be the home of the free and the brave. For some reason I do not feel so free. I felt more free in Vietnam then I do here and I was a US Marine trained to hate the Commies. My first trip to Vietnam really changed my view on all that garbage the fed us. I am sure there are some problems but from my point of view in my limited time there I did not see many. Other then the traffic and the conditions of the roads."

_______________________

"This is a little off topic but Vietnam does have it's real lack of "human rights" problems because of the communism. I also feel free when I am here but we are foreigners here and the government here is really bad to its own people. My fiancee was harassed and threatened by cops last night and basically had her motorbike stolen from her for no reason. They said she wasn't wearing her helmet but she was OFF the bike at the time. Now she has to pay them daily for 30 days to get her motorbike back."

So, how free is Vietnam? When we go visit, it feels in many ways like stepping back in time to 1950s America. A time when a family was more structured. A time when everybody sat down to eat dinner all at once. A time before the nanny state. Now they've got the stupid helmet law, but that's one of the few exceptions. Can you imagine trying to ride four on a motorcycle over here? Your neighbors would probably turn you into DHS. No, Vietnamese pretty much just do whatever they want, or whatever they can get away with. They are all capitalists in their hearts. I am not saying anything new to any of you. You know this already, having all been to Vietnam. It's probably pretty much the same with other SE Asian countries. And the Chinese.

The biggest problem I see with the way things are is that corruption, bribing, cheating, and cutting corners is a way of life there. One might argue that it is also a way of life here, but that is largely myth or urban legend. No one I personally know has made a living based upon any of those things. By contrast, pretty much everyone who has any money at all in Vietnam has made it by doing one or more of those things, including my own wife. This, I believe, is due in large part to the Communist system of government. It encourages those who have even a little bit of power or authority to be corrupt. This is because taking just a few kickbacks or bribes can literally lift a civil servant out of poverty and put them squarely in the middle class and a life of relative comfort. You and I would probably do it too. And let's not even talk about the amount of red tape there is if you want to start a legitimate business there. They have a committee (and a stamp) for everything, and none of these committees does anything in a timely fashion.

I cannot speak intelligently about political freedom there. No one in my family ever talks about politics. Ever. They feel there is no reason to worry about it, since there is nothing they can do about it. I do know that a certain member of my family used to like to go hunting somewhere south of Hanoi. He doesn't do that any more. It has become too risky. Somewhere, a couple of shotguns (expensive ones, if I know this guy) are hidden deep within the bowels of somebody's house somewhere, waiting for the day they can come out without fear of really bad things happening with the police.

That's my approximately 320 VND on freedom in Vietnam. Feel free (no pun intended) to put in your approximately 320 VND.

Well if what your saying is half way right.. and I don't mean any offense to anyone here but.. it'd explain why our former landlord was thieving cable TV then selling it to us, his tenants. Telling his "partner" who he's legally not living with, in a big house in a private gated subdivision that he fixed the electrical issues we had at the time in that house. I mean the man was avoiding the tax man on just about everything! I could go on with the list of crooked lies that b@stard told us, her and everyone else.. but in the end he was a liar a thief and last I heard he was being sued and his "business" wasn't doing too good.. I've no pity for him or anyone that corrupt. He was a capitalist alright.. and I'm sure he'll choke economically on his own greed in the end.

Edited December 10, 2008 by aidan80