Proving domicile when not living in the U.S.

[Sunny4567 0]

Trailmix-

I am so glad you are on this site. Your info has been more helpful to me than my lawyer.

And it is FREE!

We failed our interview last Wednesday in Montreal due to domicile. My lawyer had

prepared all the paperwork, so I never even had read the I-864 myself. (duh!)

She did nothing to prepare us for the domicile question!

She had told me I needed to secure a place for us to live in the US, which I did

but not to have evidence of this residence with us for the interview.

I even was in Boston in January and met with her to go over what I would need

to provide for the Montreal Interview.

She assumed that my substantial US bank accounts would be enough and told me just

to bring the most current copies of all my bank accounts. The CO interviewer wasn't impressed.

He told me that I could live in Kabul and have US bank accounts, so that did nothing to

prove domicile..

My tax returns from last year also had a PO Box address in the US.

That really annoyed him!

I immediately went home and sent

in the documents that were suggested back to Montreal. (apt.lease, car registration, insurance, property taxes,

driver's license, doctor's bills, contract for house sale in Canada etc)

But after reading so much on this site about domicile,

I am pretty sure that we will get rejected again, and I will need to just go actually stay

in the apartment I have already rented down in Boston. If I had only know about the difficulty of

establishing domicile I would have been happy to go home and would have been happily living there for the past 3 months or longer.

The irony is that I have been so homesick for the US, all I do is complain about living in Canada!

I went home in January to get our apartment ready, but just came back to Canada to save some money

and complications of running two whole households at once. But, really if I had only known I would

have been more than happy to just stay in Boston.

I stupidly thought that being at the interview with my husband would be helpful as it would show

that we are a solid, steady, legitimate couple. All we focused on was the marriage and the financial

part, completely oblivious to domicile.

Anyway, I am thankful for all the info you have posted and managed on this site!

Thanks again!

Edited March 24, 2010 by Sunny4567

[trailmix 77]

I immediately went home and sent

in the documents that were suggested back to Montreal. (apt.lease, car registration, insurance, property taxes, driver's license, doctor's bills, contract for house sale in Canada etc)

Hi Sunny,

It sounds a bit like your lawyer was completely unaware of the domicile part of the affidavit of support really. Being an American immigration attorney, she probably doesn't deal with the domicile issue - ever (not defending her by any means - she SHOULD have read the I-864, that's her job! )

Anyway, the stuff you have sent back sounds quite substantial. You mentioned you sent your contract for your house sale in Canada, which is a good thing - as you have no doubt read, showing that you are leaving Canada is just as important as showing that you are establishing/have established ties to the U.S.

You mentioned that he wasn't too pleased with your having used a PO box for your tax returns, what did he say? Also, you mention that you sent back the documents that had been suggested - who suggested this, was it the CO or your lawyer?

[Sunny4567 0]

I know Lenie!

I said the exact same thing to my husband. Why would anyone go through the time and expense and stress of this process

if you did not have the sincere intention of living in the US?! However, I guess there are some who exploit the system

and are approached to get Visa's in a fruadulent manner while living abroad. So they want to make sure the US citizen is

actually residing in the US before they give a non US person a Visa to move there.

My problem was not being able to prove domicile, it was that my very well paid lawyer gave us NO heads up about

this requirement. She was oblivious. I would have been able to move back to the States months ago on my own, (I am financially secure and we have no children) to establish domicile. I would have been more than happy to do so as I am very unhappy living in Canada. Being apart for 4 or 5 months would have been fine, and in fact preferable as I have been So grumpy

to my poor husband about being in Canada these past 18 months. I only wish I had read this website 6 months ago!

What a waste of stress and time!

We sent in proof of domicile as soon as we returned from Montreal, but after reading all the posts on VJ about

domicile and as I am a known PR of Canada I am pretty sure we will get turned down again.

I will need to go home and enroll in classes and hook up the utilities! (well, fine with me really!)

All the best!

Yes, Montreal is a stickler for domicile and they are especially harsh on Americans who have permanent residence in Canada. I had my Canadian PR for a year, and told them that I had tried living there for my husband's job (which is important to him), but wanted to move back near my family. He said he believed that I wanted to move back to the U.S., but still refused to issue the visa to my husband.

I have always maintained that no one would go through the difficulties of applying for U.S. immigration if they had no intention of living there. I mean, who would put themselves through the torture? Though we were denied in November, we have just submitted proof of domicile (I moved back in January). Much like others, I wish I knew the things I do now about the domicile issue. I would have moved back sooner and let my husband go to the interview by himself.

[Sunny4567 0]

Hi TM-

Thanks for responding.

The CO man who interviewed us showed disapproval of my US PO Box.

He was such a strange guy. He also made inappropriate comments about my

financial situation saying ,"well yes, I see you do have quite a bit of money,

and "I wish I had this much money and was lucky enough to not have to work."

So creepy.

He actually gave us "hints" of things that he would have liked to see to prove domicile.

He made it clear that these were just suggestions, and that he could not guarantee that these would

work.

He mentioned the lease, moving truck or mover receipts, driver's license, voting record.

Luckily, I also did not import my car into Canada and kept my US registration, and insurance and payed my

property tax in Mass. for my car.

This was difficult, but I am glad I held out, as I had always intended to move back home as soon as possible.

I think those documents maybe helpful.

Very interesting to hear that my lawyer wouldn't have dealt with domicile.

Thanks makes me feel a little bit better, considering all the money I spent!

Sorry, to clarify I sent the contract signed to list our house for sale.

It is just on the market, as we were trying to wait until after the interview to actually list it.

But we want to get it on the market regardless of the interview outcome as this is prime time and

the sales tax on home sales in Ontario goes up dramatically on June 1st. But hopefully our contract with

Remax will help.

My lawyer wasn't helpful. I just took it upon myself to get together what I had that I thought would prove my sincere intention to live in the US right away.

I am actually going to tell her to read this website!

I really do not want to live here, so I am actually happy to go back to the US at any time and "domicile"

On my own!

Hi Sunny,

It sounds a bit like your lawyer was completely unaware of the domicile part of the affidavit of support really. Being an American immigration attorney, she probably doesn't deal with the domicile issue - ever (not defending her by any means - she SHOULD have read the I-864, that's her job! )

Anyway, the stuff you have sent back sounds quite substantial. You mentioned you sent your contract for your house sale in Canada, which is a good thing - as you have no doubt read, showing that you are leaving Canada is just as important as showing that you are establishing/have established ties to the U.S.

You mentioned that he wasn't too pleased with your having used a PO box for your tax returns, what did he say? Also, you mention that you sent back the documents that had been suggested - who suggested this, was it the CO or your lawyer?

Edited March 24, 2010 by Sunny4567

[trailmix 77]

Well, and this is just a suggestion, you might want to do that now then. As you may have read around here, it can take several weeks (read months) for them to review your domicile information. If you want to move anyway, if you did it now, you could gather your info over a couple of weeks and send that in right away.

Generally what has been happening is that it takes them months to review the info you sent, then if rejected and more information is requested it can take another few months for them to review that - with no guarantee they will approve it. That's just a suggestion though.

[Sunny4567 0]

For sure. I told my husband that I would just go ahead and go back home if we don't hear something by my birthday, which is early in May. I see that some people wait months for review. A few have gotten notice quicker. I was hoping that getting the envelope with my proof of domicile to the Consulate less 3 days after our interview would help. But now I don't think that it will make a difference mostly because my "overnight" envelope still hasn't been delivered!

The other thing I want to suggest to people who are mailing more proof of domicile back into the Montreal Consulate

is to use Fed Ex, as opposed to Canada Post. We used the Express mail envelope recommended by the interviewer.

But our envelope is in "mail limbo." And I have read a few other people have experienced this on VJ.

If you use Fed Ex, the envelope goes directly to the consulate building as per the address the give you on

the sheet they send you away with. If you use Canada Express Post, it goes to a large facility where they get TONS

of mail for the consulate and it takes longer to process. I called Canada Post and got this info yesterday.

At least if you use Fed Ex, you know it goes straight to the Consulate building.

But, you still need to include a prepaid, pre-addressed Canada Post express envelope in your Fed Ex envelope as that is the only

way to get your stuff back.

But my envelope sitting in "mail limbo" is pretty annoying to top it ALL off!

[Jeremy&Kathy 4]

Hi Trailmix, Sunny, and Lenie,

Thanks for your advice. It sounds to me like the NVC reviews the AOS for completeness and acts as a "screen" before the actual interview. From what you've said, it seems that most people do manage to get their interviews without any RFE for proof of domicile at this stage. Worst case if I DO get an RFE then it will delay our case. This is annoying but it's far LESS annoying than having to physically move there now and be apart from my family for 3+ months. If there's any possibility that I can avoid separating from my family and get through successfully, then I'd like to try our best. It does seem like there's a chance, so it's a gamble, basically.

NOTE: I am not just a LPR of Canada, I am a Canadian citizen (dual). I worry they may be extra hard on me about domicile because of this fact.

Here is what I plan to do:

1. Mail the AOS now with good cover letter that states "proof of re-establishing domicile", previous job offer letter, finances, etc.

2. If it comes back RFE on domicile, resort to plan B and move there ahead of my family

3. If it's accepted, then wait a few weeks to get the visa interview date.

4. April 20th: Let's pretend, hypothetically that I get notice on April 20th that my visa interview is on June 1st.

5. April 21st: Contact the US employer that wants to hire me and get a job offer letter with start date around June 20th.

6. April 25th: Put my house on the market and sell it. Get the contract of sale as proof.

7. May 1st: Give notice to resign my current job in Canada. Get a letter from my employer as proof.

8. May 5th: Get an apartment in US with a signed lease agreement that starts June 1st.

9. May 10th: Get contract from movers to proof that we are moving our belongings.

10.June 1st: Come to Visa interview with:

- new job offer letter in US

- contract of sale of home in Canada

- job resignation letter from employer in Canada

- apartment lease agreement in US

- movers contract

11.If we are rejected, then I will move there without my wife, and she will stay with her mother in Canada to wait it out. :(

12.If we are accepted, yippee! :D

Can anyone think of a way to further improve this strategy? I am hoping that this strategy gives us the best chance of staying together. If that doesn't work out, then we will just have to separate. I really hope if that happens that it isn't months but weeks. Whatever happens, I will definitely be sharing it all with everyone here!

I am still wondering:

- How long it may take to get our notice of the Visa interview date from the time that my AOS is accepted by the NVC, and

- How long after the notice of interview the actual interview date is likely to be.

I had a hard time understanding the VJ timeline pages to estimate these steps. Does anyone recall how long these two steps took with their case?

Jeremy

To answer your first question, yes, I got an RFE for more proof of domicile from NVC. At that point I was just taking a stab in the dark. I had read the I-864 instructions and knew that domicile was a key item - I just had no idea what they would want. As you have probably read from my first blurb in this thread, I gathered what I hoped would be enough evidence and sent it. Couple of weeks later I had an RFE, not enough proof of domicile. I can only say that whomever reviewed our I-864 at NVC was experienced, because they also requested my Canadian tax returns for the last 3 years - to ensure my U.S. tax returns matched up. (that's pretty unusual btw, just don't want you to think you need to send your Canadian returns).

So, the old job offer and a letter of explanation - MIGHT get you through NVC, no one can say. My opinion is that it is not worth holding up your file for it. I personally think you need to send more than that. You have read this thread so you have an idea of other things you can do and really you should. Think about sending at least 5 pieces of evidence.

You don't often hear of people getting RFEs for proof of domicile at the NVC stage - but it might be a good thing if it did happen.

One more thing. Usually the AOS is just about proving the finances. The proof of

Domicile came up at the actual interview in Montreal. The only info I provided in the AOS was

a US address and all my bank statements/finacnces. I didn't send in any supporting documents for domicile

at that point. (Mostly because I didn't know any better and my lawyer was sure that my

healthy financial situation would be enough). My AOS was approved with no problem even

though there was no real Domicile documents included.

[trailmix 77]

For an estimated wait time you will want to check out the Montreal Timeline to Interview thread we keep here in the Canada forum. Once everything is accepted at NVC, I assume you have already send the DS-230, it should be approved in a week or so. Then it is a 3-6 month wait to be scheduled for an interview in Montreal, generally.

Your evidence looks good. Do you have children? Do you have any proof of them being enrolled in school? Correspondence with schools? That might be some additional proof you could get over the next few months.

Being a Canadian citizen should not be an issue. Historically the guy doing the interviews, well at least in 2 cases, has requested that the beneficiary surrender their Canadian PR - at least with citizenship he probably won't be asking that. I am dual btw, never was an issue.

Getting an RFE from NVC is not really a good reason to move back to the U.S. right away - generally, as you said, they are screeners, if you get asked for more proof, just send anything else you can get your hands on. They won't keep RFE- ing you forever - they will eventually send it on to the consulate.

[pinguino_41 0]

Hello there,

I have a follow up question about my husband and my situation. We are also filing DCF through Montreal. He is the Canadian citizen. Last step we did was file the form D230 (I believe that's the right form). We also returned the checklist demonstrating which documents we have ready for the interview. According to the letter, it said that we should now wait for our interview date and continue to collect those documents on the checklist. Proving domicile is quite difficult for me. We are planning on moving down together. We both have been looking for jobs however, employers seem unimpressed when we tell them that we have NO IDEA when we could be available to start. So they always say, get back to us with a start date in mind. So how do I get a job offer, to prove domicile, if I dont have an interview date or any idea of when we'll be moving down? We have collected a moving quote, we have a bank account with both of our names on it in the US, I could easily get my tax information from 2009, and I could get a letter from my sister saying we will stay with her until we find out own place. How are others finding jobs? Thanks.

[Sunny4567 0]

Hello there-

My husband is also a Canadian citizen and we had our interview in Montreal on March 17th and failed due to

lack of adequate proof of domicile. I have a few things I can tell you that may be of help.

Firstly, they will not be concerned with a job offer for your husband.

My husband had one, they did not want to know about it. I was told that I was the concern

and not him. That is because I am the US Citizen and I am the one that is supposed to be able

to support my husband. They will be concerned about you for purposes of Domicile, not your husband.

When they ask where you live or where is home you should say the US. Or that you are actively in the process of

moving there.

I actually had adequate finances and they weren't wanting a proof of job

from me, but they did want proof of my domicile. Meaning the US was my primary residence.

I have been living in Canada with my Canadian husband for the last year and a half so this tripped me up!

The interviewer told me..."Look at it this way. Think of Canada and the US as two chairs.

You need to prove that you are more in the US chair than the Canada chair!"

(not a brilliant analogy, but I got his point!)

If you are not independently wealthy you will need that you can prove support of your husband.

Sadly, if you don't have a lot of money saved (there are guidelines for the AOS) you will need to

actively seek a job in the US and it would be very smart to move there ahead of your husband and start working.

Paystubs and proof of US employment unless you have a large stash of $ are vital. If you have children

and don't work then you should enroll your children in school or summer programs or whatever.

Bank accounts don't matter.

I had no less than 4 accounts and the interviewer said that was NOT proof of Domicile.

He said "you could live in Kabul and have US bank accounts.."

He wanted a lease, US driver's license,registration, insurance, voters registration, movers receipts etc.

I actually had all of these things, although not with me! (So stupid)

There is a lot of info about proving Domicile while not living in the US on this site....

While as US Citizens we should not have to prove our ties to our home country when we are with our spouse in their country.

But, the reality is that the Consulate wants you to be actively living in the US.

But I think in most cases you just really have to bite the bullet and go for the job and housing.

They also will insist on something more formal for your US living arrangement such as a Legal Lease.

You can find one online and have your sister sign it. Better to rent an apartment though and have a real lease.

They usually want to see tax returns from the last 3 years.

If you live in Canada and haven't filed tax returns in the US recently than that

may also a problem. If you have one from 2009 filed in the US, it may certainly be helpful....

They want to see that you are actively severing ties to Canada. So if you give notice on the place

you live and can prove that it is also helpful. If you have a house, put it up for sale and take proof

that you have done so. If you have a job in Canada give notice and bring proof as well.

I mistakenly focused on the marriage and the finances thinking they were the most important.

Thinking if I came to the interview with my husband that would show that the marriage was legit and

that we were a real couple. My lawyer told me my more than adequate finances in the US would be adequate to

prove Domicile. She was totally wrong and I was furious with her!

Montreal is notorious for denying Visa's due to Domicile.

I only wish I had read this site before our interview.

We learned the hard way.

I really hope this helps. I certainly wish I had this information before our interview.

Best,

Sunny.

Hello there,

I have a follow up question about my husband and my situation. We are also filing DCF through Montreal. He is the Canadian citizen. Last step we did was file the form D230 (I believe that's the right form). We also returned the checklist demonstrating which documents we have ready for the interview. According to the letter, it said that we should now wait for our interview date and continue to collect those documents on the checklist. Proving domicile is quite difficult for me. We are planning on moving down together. We both have been looking for jobs however, employers seem unimpressed when we tell them that we have NO IDEA when we could be available to start. So they always say, get back to us with a start date in mind. So how do I get a job offer, to prove domicile, if I dont have an interview date or any idea of when we'll be moving down? We have collected a moving quote, we have a bank account with both of our names on it in the US, I could easily get my tax information from 2009, and I could get a letter from my sister saying we will stay with her until we find out own place. How are others finding jobs? Thanks.

[trailmix 77]

Hello there,

I have a follow up question about my husband and my situation. We are also filing DCF through Montreal. He is the Canadian citizen. Last step we did was file the form D230 (I believe that's the right form). We also returned the checklist demonstrating which documents we have ready for the interview. According to the letter, it said that we should now wait for our interview date and continue to collect those documents on the checklist. Proving domicile is quite difficult for me. We are planning on moving down together. We both have been looking for jobs however, employers seem unimpressed when we tell them that we have NO IDEA when we could be available to start. So they always say, get back to us with a start date in mind. So how do I get a job offer, to prove domicile, if I dont have an interview date or any idea of when we'll be moving down? We have collected a moving quote, we have a bank account with both of our names on it in the US, I could easily get my tax information from 2009, and I could get a letter from my sister saying we will stay with her until we find out own place. How are others finding jobs? Thanks.

Hi pinguino,

I assume you have looked at the first page of this thread? If not, I would recommend that you do read it. There are 2 types of 'domicile' for U.S. immigration purposes and then there is 'reestablishing domicile'.

Honestly, the proof you have so far seems really inadequate and I would be surprised if you were approved based on that alone.

[pinguino_41 0]

Wow. That was wonderfully helpful.

My other question is....should I be sending any of this information to the Montreal office now or should I just be collecting them for when we are assigned an interview? It would be easier to collect the proof of re-establishing domicile if I had an interview date so that I had a ballpark date to tell my Canadian employer I am leaving and US employer I will be starting, etc.

In case I didnt mention it, the last step we did was to send D-230 form and the checklist stating we had certain documents.

[Sunny4567 0]

As far as I know you only take these documents to the interview.

My lawyer did all the other steps for us, so as far as I can tell the next thing you will receive

is the interview date. We had two months notice for our interview date, however it was all done over

email as if you use a lawyer they have a new program where they are doing things by email now.

So with mail notification, you should get have at least 6 weeks between notification and interview.

It is scary to quit your Canadian job before you know if you will get the Visa, but

we had all ducks in a row but Domicile. I can't encourage you enough to just get as much set up at home

as possible. And bring all evidence of this to the interview. Especially job offer letter and lease.

I would also seriously recommend US drivers license copy, voter registration, proof of a move etc.

These are things he asked me for that I did not have with me.

Also a PO Box is no good. I had one as my US mailing address since I have been living in Canada (for tax documents etc)

The interviewer did not like that. You need proof of a street address. Get utilites in your name as well. It wouldn't hurt

to bring that as well.

Best of luck!

Wow. That was wonderfully helpful.

My other question is....should I be sending any of this information to the Montreal office now or should I just be collecting them for when we are assigned an interview? It would be easier to collect the proof of re-establishing domicile if I had an interview date so that I had a ballpark date to tell my Canadian employer I am leaving and US employer I will be starting, etc.

In case I didnt mention it, the last step we did was to send D-230 form and the checklist stating we had certain documents.

[trailmix 77]

Yes, you should get at least a months notice. You will present the evidence at the interview, not before.

For now, focus on collecting anything and everything you can think of that will prove reestablishing domicile. It is really really important (sorry if I sound like I am repeating myself here) that you decide what you are trying to prove. If you are proving reestablishing domicile then focus on that 100%. To the point of ensuring that you know it so well, inside and out, that you don't say something at the interview like "proving domicile" - ensure you say reestablishing!

This may seem like a tiny point - however if you read the interviews that are linked in this thread, 98% of the time people were caught out trying to prove 'domicile' which is next to impossible to prove unless you are actually physically living in the U.S. at the time of the interview.

A letter from your Sister isn't good enough, write up a proper lease (you can find them online) and have her sign it, including how much rent you will pay etc.

I assume you have a joint sponsor lined up as well?

[pinguino_41 0]

What is a joint sponsor?

They sure don't make this easy on us. Wow!

I currently have an American address (my aunt's house) that I have used to file my taxes while I have been in Canada. This address is a Maryland address. However, my husband and I plan on moving to California, so our employment and lease will show California address'. Do you think that this might rise concern? I'm sure I could also find my registered voter card from Maryland somewhere. I am not registered in California. Also, when I switched over my car to be registered in Nova Scotia, they made me give up my Maryland drivers license so now I don't have that either.

Thanks for all the help.