Obese have right to two airline seats

[MrsCat 6]

This still reduces the amount of seats the airline has to sell to passengers. The only way for the airline to maintain revenues is to raise prices. Whilst being severely obese is probably a disability, that disability could be greatly improved or eradicated for many simply by following a weight loss and exercise programme. People with walkers may not have that option open to them.

It seems that some are hanging on to this idea that the obese person is to blame for their condition. That's not really the point of this case.

The question is about a specific moment in time. The time when the passenger accesses an airline for service. Not what-if they ate cabbage soup for lunch/dinner/supper for 65 years and were regular size. The legal question/obligation arises at the point in time they used the airline. Just like what if Mr. Walker self-multilated his leg and decides that he prefers a walker to a prosthetic device. So he can choose to use the prosthetic, does that mean he should pay for seat #2 because he has a choice. In the same fashion, for an obese person, if they're purely obese through genetics and have no choice about the matter (eat healthy and exercise) are they then allowed a free second seat?

Again, I'll go back to the point, it's not about how the person became disabled, its the fact that they need two seats. Plain and simple.

With respect to airline prices, that is the crux of the legal argument for the airlines. Whether taking up two seats bore by the airline is a reasonable accommodation. The SCC decided that providing two seats was reasonable.

Having met the lawyer of the plaintiff, I can tell you that she had this argument to work against and worked it she did. She tabulated plenty of numerical data to show (1) the average number of obese people who need seats on a flight, (2) the average seats available on a flight and (3) what options are available to the airlines should seats be limited and at a premium. It turns out, that prices do not necessarily need to rise to accommodate a person with extra girth, because typically, obese people prefer to driver when available and usually there are enough left over seats on a flight to make this accommodation.

I can see this being a problem around the holidays when planes are full. But again, that would have been for Air Canada to bring more evidence to show that seats are extremely limited and they would be losing a lot of money in having to provide these seats at no charge to their obese clients. I think the fact remains that they had a hard time showing that it was an unreasonable accommodation.

[William33 110]

I didn't read through this whole thread but a solution...

The airlines should provide variable seating.

So, if you're 7 feet tall and weigh 350lbs, when you buy your ticket, you let the airlines know and they assign you to a seat you'll fit into. Charging different rates based on a passenger's size is discrimination.

if they need more space they should pay more, just like business and first class do!

That's discrimination.

so using your example ... my 4'9" ex should have sued all the automakers for discrimination because they did not manufacture a car safe for her ... as she could not sit far enough from the airbag to be safe? give me a break ...

You're missing the point. Airlines have a reasonable alternative available to them. They can provide an additional seat and make accommodations at the time of booking if a person is larger. Its pretty simple. They're not asking the airlines to make bigger planes.

Manufacturing a smaller or bigger car is not a reasonable alternative because of the cost. Its an alternative just not reasonable.

How can airlines provide additional seating if the planes aren't any bigger? Additional seats cannot be introduced to existing aircraft as there simply isn't any room, especially in coach. How can airlines retain current pricing levels if two seats are to be given to a passenger that is classed as obese? On a similar thread some time ago on VJ, someone said that if the arms on coach sets were extended to provide a a solid barrier between passengers, then there could be no issue with someone "spilling" onto another passenger's seat. I thought this was a good idea as it meant that if you couldn't fit into a seat with barriers up, you would need to purchase two seats. This seems the fairest solution.

They don't make the planes seats bigger - they flip up the arm rest and the person sits in both seats. Lets be clear. This isn't for merely overweight people. This is for obese people who just cannot fit into one seat. So the airline gives them two seats rather than one. Its not some great comfort-fest.

Obesity in this case fell as a grounds for discrimination because its a physical disability. Where the problem lied for Air Canada was that they were willing to give two seats to people with walkers who had a physical disability, but people who were obese had to pay for a second seat.

In most cases, not a disability. Rather, a personal choice to eat at will, irrespective of the results. Let's not get carried away here.

Okay, so anorexics have just made a personal choice not to eat, irrespective of the results. So they are not disabled, either.

Got it.

Oh, so now that is a disability? I don't think so, unless this is cause to describe both as a mental disorder.... Given that most Americans are overweight (or in the minority, grossly underweight), what is the final analysis here?

Edit to add: This is not an issue in most parts of the world, irrespective of financial standing.

Edited November 25, 2008 by William33

[MrsCat 6]

Oh, so now that is a disability? I don't think so, unless this is cause to describe both as a mental disorder.... Given that most Americans are overweight (or in the minority, grossly underweight), what is the final analysis here?

Edit to add: This is not an issue in most parts of the world, irrespective of financial standing.

Again, blame on person or not, if something prevents someone from performing some type of activity of daily living as a result of a physical or mental condition, that is a disability. Just like the word suggests - the inability to do something.

[jundp 191]

This wouldn't be as much of an issue if airlines would stop packing people in like sardines. Yes, I know airfares would increase. But some of the seats are so narrow that even skinny people are uncomfortable in them. First class seats for everyone!

Heck yeah. I'm not fat by any means. I'm not skinny anymore but not fat. My last flight back from Germany I wanted to scream because space between the rows was so tiny. Ugh. Claustrophobia took over immediately.

we have traveled over seas most of my life im only 4ft 8 and half inch tall not obese and find the seats hard to deal with if i want to read when the person in front of me puts their seat back unless i do it to their head is almost in my lap if they dont put their seats up when i want to get out for bathroom or just walking around on the over seas flights its like going thru a obstetrical course........i think the international flights at least should be more comfortable

I still don't want to be obese, even I get three seats or more. I hope, they won't put me next to them because they really have disgusting perfume.

Wow.

that's what happened to me. exactly that. her children screamed the entire way and she yelled at the top of her voice constantly so i could not sleep. that's the only reason i complained and she got told to put her legs down and that she could not tell me to put my seat upright. then she had the nerve to tell me that because her husband was a new york doctor she thought i was the one who needed medication...

I really don't know how you didn't beat the ####### out of that woman!

i'll admit that on interstate bus trips and airplane trips, i take the aisle seat, and i am a shorty. but it is precisely because if i take the window, some big person will just jump in the seat next to me, like they found a treasure chest on NJ Transit, and little by little they start creepin' in on my space. when i say "big" it doesn't have to be an obese person, usually it's just a big-built person and they just cramp me up against the window and i'm like a lopsided, smooshed blowfish pushed up against the glass, gazing out on the Jersey turnpike, with a look of pleading help in my eye. it's terrible. the only way i have a chance is if i get the aisle seat.

I think this wins as Best Post of the Week. And it's only Monday!!!!!

[chri'stina 190]

The American culture is filled with unhealthy food now. Someone may have already pointed out, I am not sure, that the cheapest food is often fast food or junk food, not healthy food. In my opinion, now you have to work hard to stay healthy and not get overweight. In other countries, their culture just eats less ####### usually. Yes that's better, but unfortunately it's not so easy in the US. That doesn't give people an excuse to overeat or eat only really bad stuff all day, but it's everywhere and it's easy. And some "obese" people don't eat all day or just eat burgers or pizza, it's sometimes just a little more than the thin eater that adds up over years. I know for me, having gained slowly over years and years and years, it would be maybe 5lbs a year or less, hardly noticeable for me until years go by(Annoyingly it takes me about 20lbs to change a pant size!!! So weird). If you know how to calculate calories, you would know how it doesn't take a lot of extra calories for it to build up over time. (Now I am losing weight, because I want to be healthier, but I don't want to be skinny, I can't imagine myself being really skinny). Some thin or fit people are self righteous it seems. Maybe I interpret their words wrong, but it seems that way.

Edited November 25, 2008 by Parivar CSK

[jundp 191]

I agree with you, Stina. I often see people this self-righteous attitude. Before I had my daughter I was SUPER thin. Probably because I ran/walked/biked everywhere, smoked a pack a day, lived off coffee and salads, and was a poor grad student 5'6" and probably around 112. I'm quite a bit more than that now and it's not because I sit around and eat all day long.

It's easy to say "hey fattie stop eating" but if you've ever gained weight, even just a bit to make you feel uncomfortable in your skin, you know that's not always all there is to it.

That being said, I don't think ANYONE should get a free seat, unless it's me

[DeadPoolX 9]

Cassie, I apologize if anything I said hurt you. I really do try to be sympathetic towards those who're obese. I fully realize it's not merely an issue of "stop eating, moron!" If it were, obesity wouldn't be the considerable problem it is today.

I have a condition known as "hypothyroidism." That means my thyroid works below what is considered "normal operational status." In other words, if I don't take medication, I quickly become sluggish and my metabolism drops like a stone. I went through years of not knowing why I was supposedly "lazy and fat."

Even with my thyroid medication, I still packed on the pounds. One day, while eating some pizza, I stopped and looked at it. I decided to eat only a couple of slices and from then on, I began losing weight. I won't say it wasn't difficult -- I love to eat -- but with diet and exercise, I did lose weight. I was as heavy as 240 lbs at one point and I'm now around 170 lbs.

I think most people, with the proper assistance and encouragement, can lose weight. Our society tends to frown upon anyone carrying a few extra pounds and celebrates being thin (sometimes unhealthily so). My point earlier wasn't to insult anyone who's heavy. But I can't help but feel that if someone has reached well over 300 lbs (and shows no sign of stopping) that much of that is indeed due to lifestyle habits. Maybe they have a medical condition, but so do I. If I can lose weight (and I despise dieting and exercising), then I think just about anyone can as well.

[William33 110]

Oh, so now that is a disability? I don't think so, unless this is cause to describe both as a mental disorder.... Given that most Americans are overweight (or in the minority, grossly underweight), what is the final analysis here?

Edit to add: This is not an issue in most parts of the world, irrespective of financial standing.

Again, blame on person or not, if something prevents someone from performing some type of activity of daily living as a result of a physical or mental condition, that is a disability. Just like the word suggests - the inability to do something.

With respect, I disagree to the core. If all people held this belief, we would all claim some sort of disability. That said, I respect recognized (and respected) disabilities to include: Those with any issues not influenced by personal choice. e.g. Disabilities by: Birth, accident, military service, disease, heredity and so forth.

Edit to add: When I lived in Indonesia, I ate very well and had beer on a regular basis. When I returned to the States, I gained 30 pounds. Same spicy Indonesian meals, same quantities and same beer. I attribute the gain to ####### that our meats and vegetables are fed. Hormones.

Edited November 25, 2008 by William33

[chri'stina 190]

I agree with you, Stina. I often see people this self-righteous attitude. Before I had my daughter I was SUPER thin. Probably because I ran/walked/biked everywhere, smoked a pack a day, lived off coffee and salads, and was a poor grad student 5'6" and probably around 112. I'm quite a bit more than that now and it's not because I sit around and eat all day long.

It's easy to say "hey fattie stop eating" but if you've ever gained weight, even just a bit to make you feel uncomfortable in your skin, you know that's not always all there is to it.

That being said, I don't think ANYONE should get a free seat, unless it's me

No, ME!

The funny thing is, if I say "I'm fat" around my thinner friends, they yell at me and say "no you're not!", it's great lol. And out of many of my friends, I have better self-esteem than they do, even though they are smaller than me. So if I say I'm fat, they feel like the only one who doesn't exhibit so many self-esteem issues is letting them down. So I'm not allowed to talk about myself that way with them.

[MrsCat 6]

Oh, so now that is a disability? I don't think so, unless this is cause to describe both as a mental disorder.... Given that most Americans are overweight (or in the minority, grossly underweight), what is the final analysis here?

Edit to add: This is not an issue in most parts of the world, irrespective of financial standing.

Again, blame on person or not, if something prevents someone from performing some type of activity of daily living as a result of a physical or mental condition, that is a disability. Just like the word suggests - the inability to do something.

With respect, I disagree to the core. If all people held this belief, we would all claim some sort of disability. That said, I respect recognized (and respected) disabilities to include: Those with any issues not influenced by personal choice. e.g. Disabilities by: Birth, accident, military service, disease, heredity and so forth.

military service is a choice. so I guess unless conscripted they're to blame.

PS: I enjoy our exchange william. I still puffy heart you.

Edited November 25, 2008 by MrsCat

[DeadPoolX 9]

Oh, so now that is a disability? I don't think so, unless this is cause to describe both as a mental disorder.... Given that most Americans are overweight (or in the minority, grossly underweight), what is the final analysis here?

Edit to add: This is not an issue in most parts of the world, irrespective of financial standing.

Again, blame on person or not, if something prevents someone from performing some type of activity of daily living as a result of a physical or mental condition, that is a disability. Just like the word suggests - the inability to do something.

With respect, I disagree to the core. If all people held this belief, we would all claim some sort of disability. That said, I respect recognized (and respected) disabilities to include: Those with any issues not influenced by personal choice. e.g. Disabilities by: Birth, accident, military service, disease, heredity and so forth.

Depending on the individual, that could include obesity. I won't deny that diet and exercise help, but sometimes there's more to it than that. If someone has a medical condition that either prevents them from getting exercise (at least on a somewhat regular basis) or increases their weight gain potential, then that's hardly a matter of personal choice. No one I know of has ever wished to be born with any sort of medical condition. This includes ones that make gaining weight exceptionally easy and losing it an almost impossible task.

[PlatyPius 5]

Oh, so now that is a disability? I don't think so, unless this is cause to describe both as a mental disorder.... Given that most Americans are overweight (or in the minority, grossly underweight), what is the final analysis here?

Edit to add: This is not an issue in most parts of the world, irrespective of financial standing.

Again, blame on person or not, if something prevents someone from performing some type of activity of daily living as a result of a physical or mental condition, that is a disability. Just like the word suggests - the inability to do something.

With respect, I disagree to the core. If all people held this belief, we would all claim some sort of disability. That said, I respect recognized (and respected) disabilities to include: Those with any issues not influenced by personal choice. e.g. Disabilities by: Birth, accident, military service, disease, heredity and so forth.

So who stands at the boarding gate and determines if someone's weight problem is hereditary, due to a medical condition, or due to "fattie shoving food in it's face"? That's the whole point of telling people to STFU with the "Put down the cheeseburger!" comments. They don't know WHY the person is overweight.

[MrsCat 6]

This topic is getting my heart rate up. I'm taking a break and going to eat some cake followed by a coke.

[William33 110]

Oh, so now that is a disability? I don't think so, unless this is cause to describe both as a mental disorder.... Given that most Americans are overweight (or in the minority, grossly underweight), what is the final analysis here?

Edit to add: This is not an issue in most parts of the world, irrespective of financial standing.

Again, blame on person or not, if something prevents someone from performing some type of activity of daily living as a result of a physical or mental condition, that is a disability. Just like the word suggests - the inability to do something.

With respect, I disagree to the core. If all people held this belief, we would all claim some sort of disability. That said, I respect recognized (and respected) disabilities to include: Those with any issues not influenced by personal choice. e.g. Disabilities by: Birth, accident, military service, disease, heredity and so forth.

So who stands at the boarding gate and determines if someone's weight problem is hereditary, due to a medical condition, or due to "fattie shoving food in it's face"? That's the whole point of telling people to STFU with the "Put down the cheeseburger!" comments. They don't know WHY the person is overweight.

I add the following edit from my previous, for possible explanation.

Edit to add: When I lived in Indonesia, I ate very well and had beer on a regular basis. When I returned to the States, I gained 30 pounds. Same spicy Indonesian meals, same quantities and same beer. I attribute the gain to ####### that our meats and vegetables are fed. Hormones.

The point is, Platy, why should the US airlines offer overweight Americans an extra seat, when the rest of the world will say #######? They don't have this problem.

[Cassie 8]

Cassie, I apologize if anything I said hurt you. I really do try to be sympathetic towards those who're obese. I fully realize it's not merely an issue of "stop eating, moron!" If it were, obesity wouldn't be the considerable problem it is today.

I have a condition known as "hypothyroidism." That means my thyroid works below what is considered "normal operational status." In other words, if I don't take medication, I quickly become sluggish and my metabolism drops like a stone. I went through years of not knowing why I was supposedly "lazy and fat."

Even with my thyroid medication, I still packed on the pounds. One day, while eating some pizza, I stopped and looked at it. I decided to eat only a couple of slices and from then on, I began losing weight. I won't say it wasn't difficult -- I love to eat -- but with diet and exercise, I did lose weight. I was as heavy as 240 lbs at one point and I'm now around 170 lbs.

I think most people, with the proper assistance and encouragement, can lose weight. Our society tends to frown upon anyone carrying a few extra pounds and celebrates being thin (sometimes unhealthily so). My point earlier wasn't to insult anyone who's heavy. But I can't help but feel that if someone has reached well over 300 lbs (and shows no sign of stopping) that much of that is indeed due to lifestyle habits. Maybe they have a medical condition, but so do I. If I can lose weight (and I despise dieting and exercising), then I think just about anyone can as well.

DeadPoolX (and everyone else who apologized) -- first I want to say thanks. Secondly, I want to let you all know that I wasn't personally hurt by various remarks, just irked. If my overweightedness was purely from eating (which it wasn't, but poor diet did contribute), I could understand the "put down the cheeseburger" attitude. But it's not. And it's not for you. And it's not for a lot of people.

I have to agree wholeheartedly with Platy's comments:

So who stands at the boarding gate and determines if someone's weight problem is hereditary, due to a medical condition, or due to "fattie shoving food in it's face"? That's the whole point of telling people to STFU with the "Put down the cheeseburger!" comments. They don't know WHY the person is overweight.

Who is gonna be the ultimate authority? Who's gonna be the judge? I'd love to apply for that job!

The thing is, about April of this year, I decided that in spite of my medical conditions, I said "no more". I was tired of being the one stared at on the plane. And I have lost weight -- very slowly, mind you, but it's going for good, over 25 pounds' worth. But the problem is, I am still overweight. I feel like hanging a sign around my neck saying "if you think sitting by me now isn't going to be pleasant, aren't you glad you weren't around me when I was almost 300 pounds?!"

Everyone can lose weight, but to stick with it is hard, big time. I'm a member of SparkPeople, an online community that encourages healthy eating and habits, weight loss, and getting strong, both physically and mentally. I spend time reading peoples' blogs on there and it would break your heart. So many people try and try and try and try, and there is such pressure to look good and be stick thin in the face of an abundance of temptations and stumbling blocks and after a while of being beaten down constantly, many just say screw it, you're right, I can't do it, I have no willpower.

Anyways, I am done with this thread. I just get too riled up -- not personally, but on behalf of my 300 pound friends who are working their butts off for results, and still get the "put down the cheeseburger" attitude.