An ounce of prevention

[Danno 1,228]

......

To be honest, I think the best thing to do in any recession or economic downturn is to reduce the amount of debt you owe.

Nick

Actually that is a much easier plan to follow "Before" a recession.

When things start getting tight.... paying off more than you owe (that month) is not so easy.

The only payment I have is my house and Van, I was thinking about paying off my van early but who knows... I might wish I had that $3500 to buy groceries (or even ammo this time next year.

[Ban Hammer 13,283]

Recessions and depressions are common place for countries. About every decade, a recession occurs, because there is something in the market that requires a 'correction'. This time, the market correction was the real estate market.

The economy here in the USA is not bad. I am not going to imply it is great, but it isn't bad either. It's exactly what I expect it to look like in a recession.

There is nothing happening in our economy that has not happened before. And just like before, the recession will end, and we will have have growth again. And 10-15 years from that point, we will have another recession ect.

If your wondering what gun you should purchase for the purposes of self-defense (from looters, thieves and eventually gangs in the event a economic collapse) and acquisition of food (killing small and moderate sized game) I would highly recommend a shotgun. Of course, I would recommend the 12 gauge, as it is the most commonly used shotgun and the ammo for it is plentiful and cheap (for shotgun ammo). I would also highly recommend you use #4 buckshot. It will drop any intruder, as well as small to moderate sized animals.

To be honest, I think the best thing to do in any recession or economic downturn is to reduce the amount of debt you owe.

Nick

a 12 gauge is an excellent choice. one can hunt small birds up to and including large animals (with slugs). 0 buckshot is my round of choice for self defense, it's 9 .32 caliber balls at once. i'd not recommend #4 buckshot for small animals though due to the price of it plus #7 1/2 is a good all around choice for birds smaller than ducks and for other animals, medium dog size and smaller. (i used the medium size dog on purpose, as packs of housepets may be an issue in this scenario and it's worthwhile to know that 7 1/2 can deal with them).

max effective range is limited however, birds with #7 1/2 - #9 is about 40 yards, about out to 100 yards max with a slug or buckshot.

when picking a firearm for self defense in the above scenario (economic collapse) DON'T go with oddball/unusual calibers. standard calibers for rifles are .22, 30-06, 270, .308 and .223. for pistols the common calibers are .22, 9mm, .38, .45, and .40.

shotguns are 12 and 20 gauge, with 12 being the preferred. getting something other than those could make scavenging ammo difficult, and the common calibers are generally cheaper too (as i've discovered when i priced 25-06, it's about half again as much as 30-06 although it's based on the same case).

more info for those interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_shell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_shot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_slug

Edited December 2, 2008 by charles!

[Brad and Vika 129]

Recessions and depressions are common place for countries. About every decade, a recession occurs, because there is something in the market that requires a 'correction'. This time, the market correction was the real estate market.

The economy here in the USA is not bad. I am not going to imply it is great, but it isn't bad either. It's exactly what I expect it to look like in a recession.

There is nothing happening in our economy that has not happened before. And just like before, the recession will end, and we will have have growth again. And 10-15 years from that point, we will have another recession ect.

If your wondering what gun you should purchase for the purposes of self-defense (from looters, thieves and eventually gangs in the event a economic collapse) and acquisition of food (killing small and moderate sized game) I would highly recommend a shotgun. Of course, I would recommend the 12 gauge, as it is the most commonly used shotgun and the ammo for it is plentiful and cheap (for shotgun ammo). I would also highly recommend you use #4 buckshot. It will drop any intruder, as well as small to moderate sized animals.

To be honest, I think the best thing to do in any recession or economic downturn is to reduce the amount of debt you owe.

Nick

I think the critical issue for most Americans (and SOs) now is the probable length of the recession. The news today said that the US has officially been in a recession since last December. That puts the window at about 18 more months for a full blown recession, with the absolute bottom of the trough between now and April.

[Thomas-n-Elena 0]

Actually what they say is that a recession last about 18 months and if we have been in one since december 2007 then we should start seeing a turnaround in july or august. The other thing that worries me is how many states are running huge deficits. California has rung up about 17billion because of bad fiscal policy and that state alone in among the top ten economies of the world. What if a state goes belly up can we sell california back to mexico or maybe russia wants to buy it now.

[mox 298]

Actually what they say is that a recession last about 18 months and if we have been in one since december 2007 then we should start seeing a turnaround in july or august. The other thing that worries me is how many states are running huge deficits. California has rung up about 17billion because of bad fiscal policy and that state alone in among the top ten economies of the world. What if a state goes belly up can we sell california back to mexico or maybe russia wants to buy it now.

Yeah...it's pretty bad out here. I mean...there's DEFINITELY something wrong when I start agreeing with Schwarzenegger. Dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria.

[slim 1,523]

100% agreed in principle (as we've discussed before) but I really like the convenience of a pistol. I live in a small apartment and don't really have a way that I'd feel comfortable with storing a rifle without taking up a lot of space. I've got a biometric pistol safe that's easily stashed out of sight and yet allows instant access. If you've got any suggestions on something that doesn't take up a lot of room and isn't heavier than a damned pickup (I have stairs) to stow a rifle I'm all ears.

Keep in mind, a pistol is something you use to get to your rifle! In your scenario, mox, a pump shotgun would be an excellent choice. Throw it in the closet, no case needed, and if it gets jacked, no big deal because you're only out $200 or so. Your little biometric safe is cool, but unless it's bolted down or hidden well, it'll probably get stolen before a long gun. There's only one thing in those little boxes!

As for apartment storage, hang it up (by a sling) on the back of a door and cover it up with a jacket. Doesn't look like anything's there except the jacket. Plus, if you need it, it's ready quickly. Don't forget about the little gap between the fridge/stove/cabinets/walls, on top of cabinets, behind a desk or dresser or something similar. A great place is above the door jam in a closet. The more "hood" folks like to keep them under the couch or between the matress and box springs, register vents, speakers, under the toilet tank cover - there are lots of good hiding spots for both pistols and long guns, you just have to be creative. And, you also have to be safe. It goes without saying but you have to make sure you keep it ready enough for you to use but safe enough those who may come in contact with it (kids, angry wife, etc.) to not accidentally shoot themselves. I prefer to keep all my guns "loaded" but with no rounds in the chamber; reason being, is it's very safe and if you're faced with a situation where you may have to use your gun, you can ####### it first and often times the act (and sound!) of cocking a gun, especially a pump shotgun, is enough to de-escalate any situation.

See post below.

If your wondering what gun you should purchase for the purposes of self-defense (from looters, thieves and eventually gangs in the event a economic collapse) and acquisition of food (killing small and moderate sized game) I would highly recommend a shotgun. Of course, I would recommend the 12 gauge, as it is the most commonly used shotgun and the ammo for it is plentiful and cheap (for shotgun ammo). I would also highly recommend you use #4 buckshot. It will drop any intruder, as well as small to moderate sized animals.

See post below.

a 12 gauge is an excellent choice. one can hunt small birds up to and including large animals (with slugs). 0 buckshot is my round of choice for self defense, it's 9 .32 caliber balls at once. i'd not recommend #4 buckshot for small animals though due to the price of it plus #7 1/2 is a good all around choice for birds smaller than ducks and for other animals, medium dog size and smaller. (i used the medium size dog on purpose, as packs of housepets may be an issue in this scenario and it's worthwhile to know that 7 1/2 can deal with them).

max effective range is limited however, birds with #7 1/2 - #9 is about 40 yards, about out to 100 yards max with a slug or buckshot.

when picking a firearm for self defense in the above scenario (economic collapse) DON'T go with oddball/unusual calibers. standard calibers for rifles are .22, 30-06, 270, .308 and .223. for pistols the common calibers are .22, 9mm, .38, .45, and .40.

shotguns are 12 and 20 gauge, with 12 being the preferred. getting something other than those could make scavenging ammo difficult, and the common calibers are generally cheaper too (as i've discovered when i priced 25-06, it's about half again as much as 30-06 although it's based on the same case).

Agreed with both of you guys but just wanted to add for shotguns- make sure you get a pump action shotgun and have a few different types of shells available. For the SHTF scenario I'd get nothing smaller than a #4 shot and would be more comfortable with 00-Buck or even slugs. I'd load with the buckshot and then have slugs readily available just in case. Keep in mind too that shotguns are what you want to use to "pick a lock" if you don't have your "big red keys" handy. http://www.ktool.net/servlet/the-1336/KLEI...30-30%22/Detail A good pump shotgun can be bought at WalMart for around $200 and with $20 in ammo, you're all set.

Charles! is spot-on with his suggestion to pick only "standard" calibers as they will be more readily available. The only thing I'll add on there is the 7.62X39 for rifles (AK, SKS, etc.) and you could probably do reasonably well with the .357 and .44 for handguns.

You guys may think I'm crazy, but if it gets to the point where the zombies or aliens or whatever are invading (or Red Dawn!) I'll have my Colt AR-15 (.223), my Remington 870 (12ga.), and my Para-Ordnance NiteHawg (.45) all on my person at the same time. Oh, and my tomahawk, my knife, my Leatherman, and maybe even my E-tool just for good measure. And let's not forget about all that ammo! Flashlight, canteens, poncho, radio, compass, and the list goes on and on and on.......

Call me crazy, but I'd rather be ready for worst-case and deal with something like someone pounding on my door at 3AM than have something worst-case and only be ready for someone pounding on my door. Survival/Disaster prep is like air.... most of the time you don't even realize you need it. But, then when you don't have any, and you really need it........

[mox 298]

Keep in mind, a pistol is something you use to get to your rifle! In your scenario, mox, a pump shotgun would be an excellent choice. Throw it in the closet, no case needed, and if it gets jacked, no big deal because you're only out $200 or so. Your little biometric safe is cool, but unless it's bolted down or hidden well, it'll probably get stolen before a long gun. There's only one thing in those little boxes!

It'd be pretty hard to steal my safe. I won't go into specifics due to stalkage issues, but it's a non-issue. As for having a rifle hanging on doors, in mattresses, etc, that would also be a problem, and again for reasons I won't go into. (I probably just need to make a new VJ account or something.)

A good pump shotgun can be bought at WalMart for around $200 and with $20 in ammo, you're all set.

Shop smart. Shop S-Mart.

[Danno 1,228]

And from another angle;

While the K-mart Shotgun is more than able to handle near any task (not much of a snippers gun)

it might also be interesting and smarter in the "long term" to buy a gun which will gain in value over the years.

I noticed some of my guns have held value and others are worth even less than I paid for them ( some I got for nothing).

I don't follow the Gun market but I do know Guns and guitars ave very similar in some ways and I would NEVER

buy a brand new guitar.

I have had kids in my house most of my adult life and lived in pretty good areas, so I always had greater odds of a gun accident taking place rather than the midnight intruder so I never kept a loaded gun in the house.

If I lived in a dicey area I would weigh the odds and act accordingly.

[Brad and Vika 129]

Actually what they say is that a recession last about 18 months and if we have been in one since december 2007 then we should start seeing a turnaround in july or august. The other thing that worries me is how many states are running huge deficits. California has rung up about 17billion because of bad fiscal policy and that state alone in among the top ten economies of the world. What if a state goes belly up can we sell california back to mexico or maybe russia wants to buy it now.

That is only correct if this were a normal cycle, and I don't think it is. Normally, a period of expansion lasts 5-6 years, with a multi month contraction (based only on what I have been taught about the new monetarist theory). Since the expansion is roughly double in length due to monetary policy, the corresponding contraction should be longer too. And we can't spend our way out of it or put in enough liquidity to shorten it. Just as tinkering with Fed rates will stretch out the expansion, forcing liquidity will simply slow the inevitable tanking-out that is necessary for it to end. I agree that we are probably going to see improvement in the next few months, but we are not nearly finished. The end will come with inflationary whiplash caused by the artificial liquidity. In other words - a sharp interest rate spike in about a year.

[slim 1,523]

It'd be pretty hard to steal my safe. I won't go into specifics due to stalkage issues, but it's a non-issue. As for having a rifle hanging on doors, in mattresses, etc, that would also be a problem, and again for reasons I won't go into. (I probably just need to make a new VJ account or something.)

There are a lot of reasons that you're not going into and I respect your privacy, but if you're not safe inside your own home, that's pretty serious. If I felt I had a pretty serious situation such as that, I'd make sure I had a pretty serious piece to go with it. Sig's pretty serious, no?

Cyber stalkers that materialize into actual stalkers are pretty well sent back into cyberspace by a .45 through the front door. It's too bad that it's not PC to say, "if I see you at my house, I will shoot you right in the fu@#ing head" because that would really deter someone from making a drive from Canada down the coast. But, since we're not allowed to say such things I won't say it. (I'm still allowed to think it though, right?)

The fact of the matter is 99% of cyber stalkers are punks. The 1% that transition into real life can be stopped by real bullets.

I don't follow the Gun market but I do know Guns and guitars ave very similar in some ways and I would NEVER

buy a brand new guitar.

I'm also a believer in a good used gun. No reason to buy brand new when a used one is just as good and saves you 20%.

And let me just climb up on my soapbox for a moment....... if you have CCW in your state and you don't have one, you should probably get one. For nothing more than simply exercising your right, it's a good thing to have. But, when something like a cyber stalker hinting at paying you a visit at your REAL HOUSE pops up in your PM inbox, you'll sleep a little better at night knowing that not only are you safe in your bed, but you're safe when you walk from your door to your car, from your car to the store, from the store back to your car, etc. There's a simple choice to make - law abiding citizen exercising your right to carry..... or victim. I have never heard someone after a violent encounter say, "I wish I would've left my gun at home today."

[Brad and Vika 129]

It'd be pretty hard to steal my safe. I won't go into specifics due to stalkage issues, but it's a non-issue. As for having a rifle hanging on doors, in mattresses, etc, that would also be a problem, and again for reasons I won't go into. (I probably just need to make a new VJ account or something.)

There are a lot of reasons that you're not going into and I respect your privacy, but if you're not safe inside your own home, that's pretty serious. If I felt I had a pretty serious situation such as that, I'd make sure I had a pretty serious piece to go with it. Sig's pretty serious, no?

Cyber stalkers that materialize into actual stalkers are pretty well sent back into cyberspace by a .45 through the front door. It's too bad that it's not PC to say, "if I see you at my house, I will shoot you right in the fu@#ing head" because that would really deter someone from making a drive from Canada down the coast. But, since we're not allowed to say such things I won't say it. (I'm still allowed to think it though, right?)

The fact of the matter is 99% of cyber stalkers are punks. The 1% that transition into real life can be stopped by real bullets.

I don't follow the Gun market but I do know Guns and guitars ave very similar in some ways and I would NEVER

buy a brand new guitar.

I'm also a believer in a good used gun. No reason to buy brand new when a used one is just as good and saves you 20%.

And let me just climb up on my soapbox for a moment....... if you have CCW in your state and you don't have one, you should probably get one. For nothing more than simply exercising your right, it's a good thing to have. But, when something like a cyber stalker hinting at paying you a visit at your REAL HOUSE pops up in your PM inbox, you'll sleep a little better at night knowing that not only are you safe in your bed, but you're safe when you walk from your door to your car, from your car to the store, from the store back to your car, etc. There's a simple choice to make - law abiding citizen exercising your right to carry..... or victim. I have never heard someone after a violent encounter say, "I wish I would've left my gun at home today."

The castle doctrine states that you can defend your home (and yourself or others in it) with lethal force if you truly believe that you are in danger. I don't think you need a CCW for that - keeping a gun in your home. Although castle doesn't really work if you are in your home shooting at a threat outside it, unless the shooting put your neighbors in danger, juries in most states don't convict. Small comfort, I know.

Also a word about ammunition, because I am reading lots of posts lately about buying good ammo cheap. If you live in an apartment or close to others, your household defence gun and ammunition should be appropriate for that location. I have seen courts handle this type of case from the inside, and in most states the intent follows the bullet. So if you shoot at a home invader and accidentally kill a little kid asleep next door, you will go to jail. So think low-grain and soft slug, maybe a 9MM or .38, not a .40, .45, .357 or .44 hand cannon. Just use common sense.

[Danno 1,228]

Perhaps that dovetails in with my "buy a used gun" that will hold value.

I would imagine a WW2 era german luger would hold it's value?

Of course I joke a little because I am sure the price of such a gun would be very high to start with but I think they are 9mm no?

Edited December 3, 2008 by Danno

[mox 298]

There are a lot of reasons that you're not going into and I respect your privacy, but if you're not safe inside your own home, that's pretty serious. If I felt I had a pretty serious situation such as that, I'd make sure I had a pretty serious piece to go with it. Sig's pretty serious, no?

Cyber stalkers that materialize into actual stalkers are pretty well sent back into cyberspace by a .45 through the front door. It's too bad that it's not PC to say, "if I see you at my house, I will shoot you right in the fu@#ing head" because that would really deter someone from making a drive from Canada down the coast. But, since we're not allowed to say such things I won't say it. (I'm still allowed to think it though, right?)

The fact of the matter is 99% of cyber stalkers are punks. The 1% that transition into real life can be stopped by real bullets.

You and I are of 100% like minds on this, slim. Canadians. It's why we can't have nice things.

Also a word about ammunition, because I am reading lots of posts lately about buying good ammo cheap. If you live in an apartment or close to others, your household defence gun and ammunition should be appropriate for that location. I have seen courts handle this type of case from the inside, and in most states the intent follows the bullet. So if you shoot at a home invader and accidentally kill a little kid asleep next door, you will go to jail. So think low-grain and soft slug, maybe a 9MM or .38, not a .40, .45, .357 or .44 hand cannon. Just use common sense.

Absolutely. Most apartments walls aren't even built to the same spec that condo walls are. A lot of them probably wouldn't even stop a pellet gun, let alone a .44.

[Ban Hammer 13,283]

The castle doctrine states that you can defend your home (and yourself or others in it) with lethal force if you truly believe that you are in danger. I don't think you need a CCW for that - keeping a gun in your home. Although castle doesn't really work if you are in your home shooting at a threat outside it, unless the shooting put your neighbors in danger, juries in most states don't convict. Small comfort, I know.

Also a word about ammunition, because I am reading lots of posts lately about buying good ammo cheap. If you live in an apartment or close to others, your household defence gun and ammunition should be appropriate for that location. I have seen courts handle this type of case from the inside, and in most states the intent follows the bullet. So if you shoot at a home invader and accidentally kill a little kid asleep next door, you will go to jail. So think low-grain and soft slug, maybe a 9MM or .38, not a .40, .45, .357 or .44 hand cannon. Just use common sense.

castle doctrine varies by state.

on the subject of bullets that don't penetrate, check out non-jacketed wadcutters.

[Brad and Vika 129]

The castle doctrine states that you can defend your home (and yourself or others in it) with lethal force if you truly believe that you are in danger. I don't think you need a CCW for that - keeping a gun in your home. Although castle doesn't really work if you are in your home shooting at a threat outside it, unless the shooting put your neighbors in danger, juries in most states don't convict. Small comfort, I know.

Also a word about ammunition, because I am reading lots of posts lately about buying good ammo cheap. If you live in an apartment or close to others, your household defence gun and ammunition should be appropriate for that location. I have seen courts handle this type of case from the inside, and in most states the intent follows the bullet. So if you shoot at a home invader and accidentally kill a little kid asleep next door, you will go to jail. So think low-grain and soft slug, maybe a 9MM or .38, not a .40, .45, .357 or .44 hand cannon. Just use common sense.

castle doctrine varies by state.

on the subject of bullets that don't penetrate, check out non-jacketed wadcutters.

True, like most legal defense theories, the castle doctrine will vary. I think all states and territories recognize it in some form though. It is really important if you are arming yourself for home defense to know how castle is interpreted where you live. For example, can you shoot a guy who is threatening you on the porch, or while he is trying to kick in the door, or not until he has chased you into the kitchen waving a machete? Seriously - reasonable avenue of retreat is an important factor in some places.

In my city, there was a group of drug dealers on the south side who had a gun related altercation a couple of years ago. Two men decided to "have a conversation" with a third guy at his house - and invaded his home to get his attention. The object of their affection saw them coming, and got down behind some furniture with his trusty handgun and killed both of them in his living room after they kicked his front door down. He was never charged with any crime related to killing the other two guys, although I think there were some other charges ancillary to that because his apartment had lots of police in it that day (illegal drugs, etc.). He was clearly defending himself in his home, justifying the homicidal acts.