Freedom of Movement in the MENA Countries?

[sara535 15]

Now I completely forgot what I was talking about?

Oh yes...

Is it ethical for me to approach my Mom again knowing the relationship we've have. I think the Mother Daughter dynamics got pretty hysterical there. Maybe I should bring someone with me that can explain the visa process to her better? I really don't have any other option but her. I've gone down the list of who to ask for co-signers and most of them are disqualified or I'd rather not be involved with.

If it were me I beleive I would wait a bit and let the dust settle some and then re-approach it. in the meantime be thinking about your plan B options.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Now I completely forgot what I was talking about?

Oh yes...

Is it ethical for me to approach my Mom again knowing the relationship we've have. I think the Mother Daughter dynamics got pretty hysterical there. Maybe I should bring someone with me that can explain the visa process to her better? I really don't have any other option but her. I've gone down the list of who to ask for co-signers and most of them are disqualified or I'd rather not be involved with.

Yes its ethical . tell her there will be next to no risk for her because its only a risk if he goes on welfare and with no kids I doubt hed get it. Tell her you need her help to be with your husband and that shes your only hope. Explain that you need him with you and that you love him;

I feel like you might have complained about him and she feels like WHY HELP THIS MORON WHO HURT MY DAUGHTER AND WAS ON THE NET WITH OTHER WOMEN

moms have a long memory

[notime4haterz 0]

Hangininthere, because of your loss, I'm not going to say anything nasty to you, but your post literally left me like

All I posted was the part in the Quran that said men are not supposed to beat women or hurt them.

I wasn't being a scholar and I didn't write that piece. I got it from an Islamic website.

As for me saying that women should know their rights before they marry, so that they can make sure they get what is rightfully theirs...excuse me, but what is wrong with that? Shouldn't a person know how to drive a car before they get behind the wheel????

I want women to know that they are supposed to be treated good and taken care of!

As for everything else you said, I'm not going to reply to any of it. I wish you much strength and recovery from your loss, and only the best. May you never suffer anything tragic again.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Hangininthere, because of your loss, I'm not going to say anything nasty to you, but your post literally left me like

All I posted was the part in the Quran that said men are not supposed to beat women or hurt them.

I wasn't being a scholar and I didn't write that piece. I got it from an Islamic website.

As for me saying that women should know their rights before they marry, so that they can make sure they get what is rightfully theirs...excuse me, but what is wrong with that? Shouldn't a person know how to drive a car before they get behind the wheel????

I want women to know that they are supposed to be treated good and taken care of!

As for everything else you said, I'm not going to reply to any of it. I wish you much strength and recovery from your loss, and only the best. May you never suffer anything tragic again.

I think because you kind of talk about islam alot and arent really living the rules.. I just got irritated.Unfortunately some muslims dont follow the rules of islam or pick and choose the rules like break one then follow others and its confusing as well....

I think I was still blown out by the mahr postings and some of the other stuff. You are nice. I m just very ptsd and I see one part of something and flip which I know is bull ####. I am sorry....

I was really pissed off by alot of people ( mostly all muslim) in the days after he died and leveled everyone. I really need to get over it.. some how.. other people are depending on me

Hangininthere, because of your loss, I'm not going to say anything nasty to you, but your post literally left me like

All I posted was the part in the Quran that said men are not supposed to beat women or hurt them.

I wasn't being a scholar and I didn't write that piece. I got it from an Islamic website.

As for me saying that women should know their rights before they marry, so that they can make sure they get what is rightfully theirs...excuse me, but what is wrong with that? Shouldn't a person know how to drive a car before they get behind the wheel????

I want women to know that they are supposed to be treated good and taken care of!

As for everything else you said, I'm not going to reply to any of it. I wish you much strength and recovery from your loss, and only the best. May you never suffer anything tragic again.

And I know my rights but its the responsibility of the "born muslim" to follow his own religion ya think? I cant carry someone raised in a religion and right the wrongs. HE HAS SOMEEEEE level of responsibility in all of this ya think?

[notime4haterz 0]

And I know my rights but its the responsibility of the "born muslim" to follow his own religion ya think? I cant carry someone raised in a religion and right the wrongs. HE HAS SOMEEEEE level of responsibility in all of this ya think?

Actually, I would say MOST of the responsibilities fall on him, not you. Since you know your rights, then it's your choice if you will demand them from him, or pardon him. I really don't know your whole history with your husband, but I do know that any man should be his wife's strength and her rock during a tragic time.

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

And I know my rights but its the responsibility of the "born muslim" to follow his own religion ya think? I cant carry someone raised in a religion and right the wrongs. HE HAS SOMEEEEE level of responsibility in all of this ya think?

Actually, I would say MOST of the responsibilities fall on him, not you. Since you know your rights, then it's your choice if you will demand them from him, or pardon him. I really don't know your whole history with your husband, but I do know that any man should be his wife's strength and her rock during a tragic time.

[KHPerfectMatch 1]

Hey K! I haven't seen you in awhile! I had forgot about you. Thanks for showing me womeg btw. I am sorry I just got excited to say hi to you and congratulate you on your new Husband getting his visa and coming here. I didn't have time to read all of your post but I will.

I am having a hard time right now. My Mom and I just got into an awful fight last night about co-signing for the visa. She said horrible things to me and I just don't know what else to do. I am already having a hard time dealing with being an egyptian military bride going through immigration and coping by focusing on finishing my degree. I thought we were over this bit of fighting and she had accepted my marraige. She said I told her things. I told her he and I have had plenty of time to work our problems out. She said I had to come back in three months that it was BS I was going to live there and stay with him. I told her would you listen to yourself. He is my Husband. We've already been apart 2 years. I can't go on like this. She said that it was my fault for marrying an Egyptian from a third world country. I was shocked at her words and wondered what does this have to do with anything? To go for the IR-1 she knew I needed her to co-sign. I've been a student for the past 2.5 years with no income other than school money. She was too emotional. I tried to explain the process as calmly as I could to her. The I am the primary sponser. That nothing is going to happen. We've researched and he can start right away as a Medical Researcher in most parts at $50,000 a year. That if anything did happen to him I would be willing to sign a notorized document it's just a formal loan between me and her. But that nothing is going to happen. She said I don't know what your talking about. I am sure there are plenty of people willing to co-sign for him. I said Who? Who Mom? To go there and come back as fast as possible I need your help right now. She said she didn't think I was a smart woman to go there live. That my student loans come due in 6 months. I told her I had a year and half because I can do an economic deferment and it just gains interest for a year without payments. But we'd pay them back. Otherwise I would have to come back for a year and work for a whole to prove I could support him on my own. We'd be apart another year if not longer if I have to keep my job. Time just won't allow it. And they may look at that one year and insist upon three examples of tax years or a co-signer and then what? Then I told her I was a smart woman I knew what I was doing I've researched and asked others in the family and some of them are disqualified but she fits. And isn't a parent supposed to support their child and want a better life for them? I need those papers. She got really pissed at that and said I've been supporting you. I am the only one supporting you. Don't blame you going to Egypt getting stuck there, getting pregnant there, and whatever else your life may lead on me not co-signing those papers for you.

I'm just so hurt. I faced having my ears chewed for the nine months we are engaged and then after marriage the two families seem to accept it and be supportive of their married kids. But now after all these problems with him going to the military I am facing the old fears again from my newly won but undone supporters and my cheeks stained with tears from the bitterness of it all.

Welcome to Immigration Hell! Not all of it works out peachy keen. Many of us are still swallowing crow that is being force feed to us.

Oh Dear Olivia, You're really got a tough situation! Sounds to me that explaining the Affadavit of Support documents might not be the answer if she simply is against the marriage, etc. Maybe she thinks she can use this Ace card to trump your decision to marry someone she doesn't approve of. My parents would NEVER have EVER helped me if I had needed their help... in fact they offered to GIVE ME $$$ if I divorced my first husband (father of my son... Arab/Muslim...) I hope that your Mom has a change of heart. Did she agree to it previously? What was your original plan when you got married?

How will you manage financially in Egypt? When your husband gets out of the army where will he go? Work? Doctor's don't make much $ in Egypt and especially not young ones. I have a good friend who is a doctor, about 28 years old just got out of the army.. if you want me to ask him for any info let me know.. He is dying to leave Egypt so he can advance his career, but he hasn't found an honorable way to do it yet. He makes OK money working in hotels in Sharm and Hurghada in the tourist season but it's not a career...

Let me recommend another group for you.. It's on Yahoo and it's called Foreign Women Living in Egypt. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Foreign-Women-Living-In-Egypt/ There is a woman on that group married to an Egyptian physician and she lived there for years before they decided to come to the US. They are now back in Egypt after living here for about 5 years... I don't think he ever got a job in a medical field here... but she never said. If you join that group she will give you an earful of information FOR SURE. She is a PhD in Egyptology and always gets great jobs in Egypt, speak Arabic, and has no problem living there. I am curious about what her husband did when they were here, she never really said...

I really wish you the best and hope that everything works out for the best for you. Things on my end are really really rough. H has nearly worn out my new carpeting pacing back and forth with worry and anxiety over the fact that he didn't get his temporary EAD when he arrived and therefore has to sit on his tush while I'm at work 5 days a week... I broke down and got Arabic Dish, but even that isn't helping. Thank GOD he is out now having coffee with an Egyptian guy he met when I took him to the Eid party right after he got here... and ran into the guy again Friday at the masjid... Ya Rab, let him find FRIENDS!!!

Hugs to you and I pray your Mom comes around and realizes it isn't in the best interest of your relationship to withhold her support for your marriage.

K

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

Thx K! I knew you spent 25 years there as an Expat.

My Mom oh she is giving me a hard time. She is supportive sometimes I think she is just so scared and so tight with her money right now because none of us know the way the economy is going to turn. I am pretty optimistic with the election of Obama that things are going to look upwards again!

I think there is never a better time to be an Expat again too! Only this time it's in a completely different place than before.

The most realistic plan B right now is: I go there after graduation. I sign up for college level Arabic classes right away encase I am there for two years. Get the forbearance or in school deferment on student loans and deal with it as it comes. He goes back for his Masters in Surgery right away which he can do in three years. After two years of college level Arabic classes I can apply to graduate school for my MS at the AUC which is a 2-3 year non-thesis program I'm looking at.

Next year (2009) his sister and her entire family will be in Baltimore for the duration of her Fellowship for her PhD at John Hopkin's. Last time they were here for her Husband's fellowship for his PhD for a year. So for the first year we may stay in their apartment in Down Town Cairo. Little did Waleed know he would be going for his Master in Surgery right after the Military when his wife is coming. He'll have his school and I'll have my part-time Arabic Lessons and assimilation/immersion into his society and culture.

I am sure married life will be good and the adventure in his country would be pretty amazing. We will figure a way to get back here finally. He may try to do like his Sister and her Husband coming here to get his PhD and making the jump here by having his USMLE part I and part II before coming to the US so he could get other work since he will already be having and F1 working visa to work as a Doctor in the US. Once we're having out own money working here again and getting establish (probably in the New England Area) then we will do whatever immigration from there? Citizenship? 10 year Non-Resident visa depending on if we want to go back to Egypt or where ever.

This is what we have talked about today. He just keeps reassuring me that it's going to be alright and we will do whatever we need to do as long as we are together we are going to be ok and that he doesn't want to be without me again ever. I kind of have to agree when the man lays his heart on the platter like this and I tend to agree. Immigration isn't going to end anytime for us soon it looks like. It's just going to be one long nightmare but at least he and I will be building a future together.

Thank you so much for your recommendation of that woman married to an Egyptian Doctor as well. I will look for her advice and guidance as well.

[Ihavequestions 419]

But when you get a post from Ihavequestions who happens to live there and says it's legal for a man to beat a wife there:

Punishment most certainly can include a beating. Here, it's legal for a husband to beat his wife, his mother, his sister(s), or any other female relative, and that's just the way it is.

When will who intervene? Do you mean the husband? That's up to the husband whether he comes to his wife's defense or not. The decision will most certainly be based up whether he believes she deserves whatever is happening at the moment or not. The police? Well, if you can find one who's actually awake, it's certainly possible you'd get some help, but those are few and far between. Regardless, whether the husband or the police will help, the Embassy will ALWAYS help a US citizen, up to and including a plane ticket home.

It raises an alarm in me. Is this just their legal system or is it the Koran's influence on the legal system there?

Or is it societal?

Egypt is governed by Sharia law, which means if it's against Islam, it's illegal, and if it's permitted in Islam, it's legal. Period. Since the Qu'ran doesn't specifically prohibit smacking the wife around but does include some discussion about the possibility it's okay, in some form, which clearly Islamic scholars don't agree on, it's allowed.

Another example of this is the fact that there no prohibitions against "marital rape" in Egypt because sex is a right (granted, it's a wife's right as much as a husband's right). How this translates socially is if he wants it, he gets it, and if he has to beat her until she holds still long enough, that's what he can do.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just saying this is the way it is.

[Aymsgirl 0]

I will be getting with my husband that knows Sharia Law first hand Olivia right now. I will get back with you on his answers.

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

Wowza! I had no idea it was Sharia laws. However, I highly doubt my Husband would ever be like that in matters regarding to sex, but damn! I already know the extent of what Sharia laws are capable of doing when interpreted in Iran. They have 52 page articles on what kinds of stones to use when participating in a stoning. I am not making this up btw. I know another Egyptian lawyer Tasha that I can ask about this but I am curious what your Husband would say.

Edited November 24, 2008 by Olivia*

[Staashi 371]

All I can say is there is alot to think about when expatriating to Egypt, or any MENA country for that matter. Some places are great for a visit, but living there is another thing. Think it over well Olivia...you might truly miss the good ole US of A.

[Aymsgirl 0]

Wowza! I had no idea it was Sharia laws. However, I highly doubt my Husband would ever be like that in matters regarding to sex, but damn! I already know the extent of what Sharia laws are capable of doing when interpreted in Iran. They have 52 page articles on what kinds of stones to use when participating in a stoning. I am not making this up btw. I know another Egyptian lawyer Tasha that I can ask about this but I am curious what your Husband would say.

Olivia...here is my husband's response. Please excuse the run on sentences and such. I tried to address what you asked.

1:- AS YOU TOLD HER ABOUT BEATING - EXACTLY ITS NOT ALLOWED TO BEAT. IF YOU HIT AND IT LEAVES MARKS, BRUISES OR BREAKS AND MAKES HER TIRED OR EXHAUSTED IF IT HAPPENED SHE HAS THE RIGHT TO DIVORCE IF SHE PROVES IT IN ISLAM BECAUSE THE FAMILY LAW GETS ITS ARTICLES FROM THE ISLAMIC LAW. IT IS LIKE A SIMPLE REMINDER LIKE DON'T BE THAT WAY AND IT IS LIKE A TAP...NO BEATING AND HE CAN BE UPHELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THIS.

2:- HE IS ALLOWED TO TELL HER TO NOT GO OUT BUT FOR REASON - EXAMPLE IS THAT A WOMAN THINKS THAT ITS SAFE TO GO OUT TO SOME PLACE AND HE KNOWS THAT THIS IS BAD PLACE OR STREET OR JUST DOWN RIGHT DANGEROUS - OR IF HE NEEDS TO SIT WITH HER LIKE AFTER HIS WORK AND HE TRUELY NEEDS TO DISCUSS SOMETHING WITH HER AND THERES NO NEED TO GO OUT AND SHE CAN GO LATER OR ANOTHER TIME TO SOLVE THEIR ISSUE HE CAN ASK HER TO STAY.

BUT IT HAS TO B FOR REAL AND A GOOD AND ACCEPTABLE REASON FOR HER AND THEY SHOULD TRY AND COME TO AN AGREEMENT FIRST. ALSO, FOR HIM TO PREVENT HER TO TRAVEL TO ANOTHER COUNTRY , HE HAS TO AGREE FIRST BECAUSE SHE WILL BE BY HER SELF IN ANOTHER COUNTRY AND MAYBE HER KIDS NEEDS HER OR THIS COUNTRY IS DANGEROUS. HE IS ALLOWED TO PREVENT HER BUT IF THERE IS NO REASON AND HE USED HIS RIGHT AS WRONG IT IS NOT LEGAL IN ISLAM. SO THE COURT AS IT WORK BY ISLAMIC LAW IT CAN GIVE HER PERMISSION TO TRAVEL -

ISLAM ALSO SAID THAT THE HUSBANDS IS NOT TO USE THIER RIGHTS INCORRECTLY

OR CONSIDER IT AUTHORITY OF USE OR ABUSE WHENEVER HE WANTS LIKE WHENEVER SHE IS UPSET OR NOT IN MOOD OR SAD OR IT WILL BE AGAINST HER RIGHTS AS A WIFE.

AND WHEN HE USE HIS RIGHTS HE HAS TO BE KINDLY SHOWING HER THAT HE IS AFRAID ABOUT HER AND THE PROPHET ADVICED AS WILLING FROM HIM TO THE MEN TO TREAT THE WOMEN AND KIDS VERY KINDLY

3:- ABOUT BEING IN THE ROOM IF THERES MEN IN THE LIVING ROOM???? WHYYYY

IF IT LIKE THIS SO SHE IS NOT ALOOWED TO GO OUT ANY WHERE BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WILL SEE HER !!!!!!!!!!!!!! ABOUT THIS YOUU CAN READ THE QURAAN IT HAS A STORY ABOUT MOUSA WHEN HE FOUND 2 LADIES AT THE RIVER TRYING TO WATER THE SHEEP AND THEY WERE WAITING FOR THE MEN TO GET OUT FROM THE SPOT AT THE RIVER - WHEN HE ASKED THEM WHY ARE YOU PREVENTING THE SHEEP TO DRINK THEY SAID( WE R WAITING 4 THE MEN TO GO - AND THAT T HEY ARE CARING ABOUT THE SHEEP BECAUSE THIER DAD IS VERY OLD - SO THE WOMAN ARE ALLOWED TO GO OUT AND ALSO TO WORK WHEN THE HOME NEEDS HER TOO HELP OUT. BUT TO NOT PUT HER SELF IN BAD POSITIONS - LIKE THE 2 LADIES WITH MEN IN A PLACE AND NOBODY THERE WITH THEM AND THEY DIDNT KNOW THE MEN BUT THEY CAN WAIT A SHORT WHILE UNTIL THEY LEAVE. A MAN SHOULDN'T HIDE HIS WIFE UNLESS HE UNCOMFORTABLE ABOUT HOW SAFE THE SITUATION IS. HE SHOULD BE PROUD OF HER AND ALL OF HIS FRIENDS AND FAMILY SHOULD GET TO KNOW HER.

4:- THE RAPING

ISLAM TOLD THE MEN TO MAKE BEGININGS (MEANING MAKE THE SITUATION COMFORTABLE AND GET YOUR WIFE IN THE MOOD) BEFORE COITUS - SO NOT TO DO IT LIKE ANIMALS --- GET IT ? SO IS THE RAPING ALLOWED ? NO BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO MAKE BEGININGS TO GET YOUR WIFE PREPARED BECAUSE IF YOU HAVE THE DESIRE MORE THAN LIKELY SHE WILL TOO. SO MAN IS ORDERED TO TREAT HIS WIFE KINDLY SO IT IS NOT LOGIC TO NOT TREAT HER LIKE THIS - AND WHAT POSITION IS SHE IN IF SHE DID THIS WITH HIM WHEN SHE DIDN'T WANT TO OR WAS FORCED TO. SHE WILL NOT BE SATISFIED AND WILL END UP HATING AND IGNORING HIM. HOW WILL HE FEEL ?

DISTANT AND FAR TO HIS WIFE AND NOT SATISFIED AND THAT HE NEGLECTED HER FEELINGS - SO MEN HAVE TO REMEMBER -- TREATING WIFES KINDLY NO HURTING HER BODY OR MIND IN ANYWAY. SO RAPE IS NOT ALLOWED BECAUSE IF SHE HAS BEEN HURT HE WILL BE ASKED FROM ALLAH ABOUT NOT BEING KINDLY AND NOT MAKING BEGININGS BEFORE COITUS AND HER BEING HURT FROM THIS. NOT TREATING HIS WIFE KIND AND TREATING HER LIKE AN ANIMAL IS A SIN HE WILL DEFINATLEY ANSWER TO.

AS THE PROPHET ORDERD THE MEN

-- BEATING LEAVE MARKS --- HURTFUL MARKS ON THE INSIDE AND OUTSIDE OF THE BODY - IT MAKESS A WOMAN VERY TIRED AND ALLOWS HER TO GET A DIVORCE EVEN IT WAS BEATING FOR WHAT HE THOUGHT WAS A REASON.

[Staashi 371]

Tasha, tell your husband thank you for the explanation...even though I'm not married to a muslim, it is nice to have some explanation/reasoning on things that have picqued my interest over the years.

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

Thx Tasha!