Fiancée Having Second Thoughts

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Oh brother

I have lived in 5 different countries and travelled to over 30. I speak 4 Languages fluently so I hardly qualify as unknowledgable about other countries. I welcome you to come to the United States and display that attitude in public around Americans who are suffering in the worst economic crisis we have ever experienced. Europe is right behind us, look at how the euro is plummeting. Call the country paradise land and say to Americans that you are not thankful for the opportunity to be here. In fact , do it front of a mother who lost her child in Iraq or much better.. sit in a group of school children and say I dont have any reason to thank the USA for anything.

Well being that genocide happened in Croatia and Serbia, I doubt life for anyone was real easy there just a short time ago. Our peacekeepers were there trying to stop it. But you know what, dont say thank you to their families. Dont feel grateful to come here or live here..Ill say thank you for you.. You forget what was happening where you are from and who was there in the aftermath.But dont say thank you... Lots of others do. Feel entitiled... We are used to it..

there was mass genocide in your part of the world on all sides... Of course the USA looks like hell...

Ridiculous.. Truly ridiculous.. And this aint paradise? Oh brother

We are worthless I guess and certainly not paradise..But I say thank you.. Cause I have seen videos of mass graves in your part of the world..and it didnt look like disney to me

I'll once more shatter your dream and say that I DO NOT consider the US to be a paradise land, or that I have to thank anyone for the opportunity to be there. EXCEPT for my fiance and his family for a shelter they'll give me until I am legal to start working and providing for myself and, of course, my newly found family.

No war, let alone that one in Iraq is my responsibility or fault and I really have no reason to feel guilty about it. I would assume you know where or who you could address when it comes to this problem. I will, however, reserve my right to feel sorry for whoever I want and I do not need you to lecture me about that either.

As for the genocide you mention, please reach out for some history books and then come back and preach. I've been here all my life and am old enough to know and see things around me. I am doing fine, thank you for asking, so are people around me. With due respect for anyone who has died for this country, including those from my own family, I have to remind you that graves are anywhere in the world and that they do not keep people from moving on with their lives. The Disney comment is completely out of place, anyway, as I never wanted to live in the Disney world.

Rarely any Croatian is looking to emmigrate to the US and those who end up doing so are NOT doing it because here we are being slaughtered or piss-poor. Again, I am sorry to shatter your dreams or fluffy clouds you live on. And, yes, in the modern world I do feel entitled to live wherever I want to. My duty is to respect and obey laws and as long as I do that, I see no reason why I should be thankful that a country wants to keep me around. Maybe the country should be happy to have me around? O.O

Croatias death camps were some of the best. Personally my dad fought in ww2 and I am grateful to the Americans that stopped the slaughter of a quarter million going on in your country. Their liberation of the death camps in your country saved thousands

The United States Holocaust Museum has an entire section devoted to the genocide perpetuated by Croatians on Jews,Roma and others.

You arent the only one not apologising :your president refuses to apologise for the death camp run out of your country and says that the holocaust was a victory for Croatia

And Croatia was one of the biggest allies of the Nazis.

Its all perspective I guess. I was raised in South Florida and had alot of exposure to people who either went through the holocaust or were affected by it including Roma so I have a hard time understanding how someone could ethnically cleanse entire groups of people based on their race or religion. Croatia so willingly helped the Nazis and then wiped out alot of holocaust evidence which is now being unearthed in droves..

http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online...c/frameset.html

The United States was no friend of Croatia. It was Germanys biggest ally in WW2.

Again, it was history . Since you know your history so well. Throw genocide into the mix.. Then maybe it makes the arrogance understandable and bearable.

[Badgerella 5]

Croatias death camps were some of the best. Personally my dad fought in ww2 and I am grateful to the Americans that stopped the slaughter of a quarter million going on in your country. Their liberation of the death camps in your country saved thousands

The United States Holocaust Museum has an entire section devoted to the genocide perpetuated by Croatians on Jews,Roma and others.

You arent the only one not apologising :your president refuses to apologise for the death camp run out of your country and says that the holocaust was a victory for Croatia

And Croatia was one of the biggest allies of the Nazis.

Please learn your history, then come back.

I'm going to be asking the moderators to lock this thread and to warn you about nationalist and otherwise insulting comments with no historical background at all. When you do not know what you are talking about, it really is advised to be quiet about it.

(You were, also, the one who brought genocide into this conversation. The reason why you did may or may not be known to you. To me, it still is unclear.)

Edited November 27, 2008 by Badgerella

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Croatias death camps were some of the best. Personally my dad fought in ww2 and I am grateful to the Americans that stopped the slaughter of a quarter million going on in your country. Their liberation of the death camps in your country saved thousands

The United States Holocaust Museum has an entire section devoted to the genocide perpetuated by Croatians on Jews,Roma and others.

You arent the only one not apologising :your president refuses to apologise for the death camp run out of your country and says that the holocaust was a victory for Croatia

And Croatia was one of the biggest allies of the Nazis.

Please learn your history, then come back.

I'm going to be asking the moderators to lock this thread and to warn you about nationalist and otherwise insulting comments with no historical background at all. When you do not know what you are talking about, it really is advised to be quiet about it.

(You were, also, the one who brought genocide into this conversation. The reason why you did may or may not be known to you. To me, it still is unclear.)

I didnt insult you. I merely brought up history as you were telling me to read mine.. I think the video of the president speaks for itself...How am I nationalist? I am not Jewish. The USA liberated the death camps in Croatia. I am proud to be American. You are not grateful to the USA or to the sacrifices of American soldiers.. I fail to see what I said that was wrong. I have no historical background? Well I have a degree in history and there is an entire wing at the US Holocaust museum dedicated to the genocide of Jews, Muslims Roma and Serbs IN DC . I visited it and have met holocaust survivors. The poor Roma had very few left to even make a museum.. Lock the thread.... But proof is proof and it certainly in my opinion contributes to the perception of Americans there...

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

Croatias death camps were some of the best. Personally my dad fought in ww2 and I am grateful to the Americans that stopped the slaughter of a quarter million going on in your country. Their liberation of the death camps in your country saved thousands

The United States Holocaust Museum has an entire section devoted to the genocide perpetuated by Croatians on Jews,Roma and others.

You arent the only one not apologising :your president refuses to apologise for the death camp run out of your country and says that the holocaust was a victory for Croatia

And Croatia was one of the biggest allies of the Nazis.

Please learn your history, then come back.

I'm going to be asking the moderators to lock this thread and to warn you about nationalist and otherwise insulting comments with no historical background at all. When you do not know what you are talking about, it really is advised to be quiet about it.

(You were, also, the one who brought genocide into this conversation. The reason why you did may or may not be known to you. To me, it still is unclear.)

I dont need to be quiet like you dont need to be polite to Americans or happy to be here....I am sure the consulate would really feel thrilled to hear your first hand opinion of America and how ungrateful you will be to move here at your interview...Thank god for consular officers , AP and 221s.. Too bad they dont use them more often and they cant really find out how potential visa petitioners feel about our country..

[Badgerella 5]

If you have a degree in history, perhaps make some use of it and, instead of posting random information that you find on the internet, make sure to check the facts before randomly presenting them to some general public.

Hint: Yes, there were concentration (death) camps in Croatia. Croatia has not been Croatia, as it is today, since before time. Some other people and systems ruled the region. Those responsible for many (if not most) things are now long gone and in many instances weren't Croatians, in the first place.

That being said, I am out of here.

The OP, I apologize for ruining your thread.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

If you have a degree in history, perhaps make some use of it and, instead of posting random information that you find on the internet, make sure to check the facts before randomly presenting them to some general public.

Hint: Yes, there were concentration (death) camps in Croatia. Croatia has not been Croatia, as it is today, since before time. Some other people and systems ruled the region. Those responsible for many (if not most) things are now long gone and in many instances weren't Croatians, in the first place.

That being said, I am out of here.

The OP, I apologize for ruining your thread.

And many of the people who have trashed americas image are long gone and on their way out ( YAY OBAMA)

Americans for the most part are very patriotic.

By the way the most informative things on the net about Croatia are in the US at the holocaust museum. They arent created. Its history.. Like George Bush and the moronic way he trashed our economy and got us embroiled in Iraq.

Well actually, they were croatians. They cooperated with Nazi Germany and many croatian citizens were complicit in the genocide and worked in the camps. They just didnt know that people like Simon Wiesenthal would hunt them down and someday they would be accountable for killing Roma and Jews and muslims. Just cause they died ( the perpetrators) doesnt make their acts disappear.

And not all Americans are ignorant of world history nor are we unaware of what the USA has done. But we do one thing different. We say we are SORRY for genocidal acts and have things like affirmative action and post humous investigations into civil rights violations.

We as American have alot of issues. I will agree with you. But our hearts are in the right place...at least the people if not our government

Cheers

[*Snowdrop* 604]

OMG - give it a rest you two - I can't believe this is helping the OP at all!

[Ban Hammer 13,340]

<--- it's turkey flavored today.

[Beauty for Ashes 257]

<--- it's turkey flavored today.

I dont do well when people tell me that they are coming here and feel absolutely no thankful ness to be here or appreciate what america is or means.. I think I have a new appreciation for consular officers.. I wish they knew the true hearts of the people that they are interviewing.. I doubt they would feel real thrilled to know that someone trying to be petitioned here isnt at least "in like" with the USA

[jundp 191]

Maybe.. I didnt author the system. But I have lived in Europe and frankly. I am not generalising. I just dont think people should weigh out what job they will have if they want to be with someone they supposedly love. I just feel sorry for the fiancee on the other end...And frankly I dont know how you dont understand that clearly

I understand that, clearly, but I stick to my right to disagree with you.

I say people SHOULD weigh out what job they have now and what their opportunities are before they just decide to move to the other side of the world (the other side of the country, or even just down the street, really). I assure you that you do not have to feel sorry for my fiance (or probably any other) because he was also part of this process. If I chose to move to the US without thinking or considering my possibilities there (and comparing them to those that I have here), then I would have felt really sorry for him. Or if we chose to have him move to Croatia without considering his possibilities here, and comparing them to those that he has in the US. Neither would have been a smart decision. And, again, I am sorry to inform you that I like my decisions to be smart. After all, he and I are about to start a new family. Shouldn't we want the best for it?

I agree wholeheartedly with this, Badgerella. It would be completely irresponsible to NOT consider all options before making a decision. My husband and I considered what would be best for us, and in the end, because I have 2 children, him finishing his graduate degree first and then moving to the US was the best move. Economically speaking. He is fluent in English and I am not fluent in German so continuing my career in Germany would be put on hold until I gained fluency.

There is nothing wrong with considering economics. I also certainly don't love my husband any less because he has no desire to ever become a US citizen. He's German and quite happy being a permanent resident.

I don't understand the comments about genocide, though....Based on what I read from Hanging in There, and the logic used, should my husband be ashamed because he's German? Because you know, his "people" are to blame for the Holocaust. I also have a degree in history and I am also aware that those in Germany (and Croatia) responsible for the Holocaust are not the same people in power today. I don't apologize to anyone for the European conquest of Mexico and the United States, so I'm not even sure what HiT's reasoning is for bringing up genocide and attacking Badgerella...

Also, I don't think there's any reason a person needs to be "thankful" to a country. She is thankful to her fiance and his family, isn't that enough?

To the OP I hope you and your fiancee will be able to work this out. It is hard to pick up and leave everything, even if she adores you and is ready to spend her life with you. I wish you both great luck!

[minibadger 1]

I dont do well when people tell me that they are coming here and feel absolutely no thankful ness to be here or appreciate what america is or means.. I think I have a new appreciation for consular officers.. I wish they knew the true hearts of the people that they are interviewing.. I doubt they would feel real thrilled to know that someone trying to be petitioned here isnt at least "in like" with the USA

Sir, I want you to listen very carefully to me.

I feel you've said and done some disgusting things in this thread. You've mischaracterized and misrepresented many opinions and statements, and have degraded the intentions, relationships, and even countries of others in this thread. You've done this while being angry at others for not properly appreciating your own country, and have even, now repeatedly, wished ill upon those applying for visas because of these misinterpretations and biases. If this is a forum in which people are supposed to help others, that alone should send you away from here.

Yet I realize our worldviews are so different that it's likely not productive to argue you point-by-point. And I can sense that you're currently angry about many things in your life and environment. So instead of expressing my anger at you and your statements, I will extend a hand and try to reach common ground by explaining the things which my fiancee, Badgerella, myself, and others have said here. I think if you understand what we're actually saying, rather than what you are a bit quick to assume we are, you'll be much less upset.

Please go back and read this entire thread. Nowhere in it has anyone insulted America. Nowhere in it has anyone insulted Americans. And, as improper and irrelevant as it was for you to suddenly start bringing up the Holocaust and WW2, no one has insulted American troops, or even questioned any intervention or military action it has made. As a matter of fact, by saying that Bush has tarnished America and our image with the Iraq war, you are the sole person in this thread to question the troops. I repeat, no one here has expressed any ill opinions about American troops or the immense sacrifices a soldier makes for his country and people. No one is being unappreciative.

If you feel the lack of mention was what was unnapreciative, please look at the context. Those things were not mentioned because this is a thread about a Fiancee having second thoughts, and about family and relationship planning. It wasn't one about war or assigning merit to the past and present actions of countries. History and war lessons are not very applicable to such things as the troubles a person is having in their relationships and lives at this very moment. No one was degrading anyone's efforts for anything historical in this thread. There should be no quarrel here.

Nowhere in this thread said anything to indicate that they do not appreciate America or its ideals. In fact, if you'll look at VisaJourney, and the world's reaction to Obama's election, you'll see that a large majority of foreigners want America to succeed and return to its original ideals. The people on this forum are all here because they're trying to better ensure their passage into America for family, love, opportunity, or a mix of all three. If any of us thought so poorly of America as you characterize some of us, they would have never started relationships or petition processes with those who would have us come there. Obviously, even in the worst of cases, America is good enough. In the majority, America is good or better. In some, America really is the promised land. But in EVERY CASE, America is the destination. We have a common ground. Please do not treat us as if we who are coming, have come, and even have lived here all our lives hate our countries. When you do, you insult your own past, present, and future countrymen.

The only things that have been said in this thread are that different people have different situations and opinions as to the balance of pros and cons about America, as compared to itself and as compared to other countries. These comparisons however have NOT been made in generalizations; in fact, you were the person most generalizing in this thread. People were comparing things to apply to their personal, private, and unique situations, not to tell anyone else how to think. We all realize what we have different journies, situations, and needs. Those are my by different things, and no one should tell another that they are outright wrong, let alone attempt to tell them how they feel or think.

People in this thread were expressing their own different needs and situations, that is all. The things you yourself have expressed not liking about America may not be a problem to some; to some they may even be the best thing. When a person says that they personally do not view America as the promised land, that isn't an insult to America; it's simply expressing that for their needs, it isn't perfect, or maybe not even the best. Even you yourself have pointed out dissatisfaction and faults. When a person expresses that something isn't for them, or isn't their opinion, sir, it just isn't the same as an insult or slapping on a label. In fact, dissent and the freedom to seek one's individual happiness is one of the most fundamental American values. And I love America.

The fact that I think other countries may be doing a lot of things better than America, or that some other country may be better for me personally had I been born there, or that I realize that other people have different values that may be better met somewhere else, does not mean I hate or do not appreciate America. I love America and have sacrificed my reputation, friends, and pleasantries for its original beliefs and I fight for its freedoms. I am not unAmerican, unpatriotic, or unappreciative simply because I also fight for the rights of people in other countries. I am not unappreciative simply because I do not think any country has a monopoly on all things good and all things bad. Every country has travesties, mistakes, and faults along with its successes, triumphs and virtues. Every person interprets that mix based on their own situations and needs. That's not an insult, or insuboridination, or unappreciation of anything. It's only people being people; people you've unfairly labeled with very negative traits and opinions they don't actually hold. You've made enemies out of those who, by their opinions, are at least your countrymen, if not your friends.

People who plan ahead in their relationships, careers, or living situations are in no way necessarily taking anything for granted or in ill faith. In fact, in most cases they do so because they care that extra amount about making things work through actual effort, actions, and preparation rather than just hope or promises. Love lifts all boats and makes everything easier, but in the end, as any old married couple will tell you, it's the effort and sheer determination that keeps a life and a relationship together. I do not consider naivete and surprise a virtue over planning and preparation.

I and my fiancee both expect to work, physically, emotionally, and financially, for our relationship and are under no illusions that it will always be happy or successful. It is in that knowledge that we put things in place and prepare to make things work in those situations that are the hardest. Just because my fiancee or anyone else says that they hope not to end up working a janitorial job in no way means she or anyone else is not prepared or willing to work, or work hard. it is the exact same as you hoping that your hard work pays off. Those in this thread have worked hard to earn degrees and educate themselves. The fact that they did so in another country does not mean that you should expect them to be happy and appreciative if they come here and end up sorting tomatoes. You would feel the exact same way if your work and education led to such a thing. At the same time, I and my fiancee are both willing to work such a job if it comes to that, and we realize that some things need to be re-done and re-established in the USA or any other new country or environment, and that may very well indeed mean working her way back up the ladder to where she currently is abroad. If that isn't the definition of wanting to and being willing to work hard to get ahead, I don't know what is.

By characterizing my fiancee and others in this thread as having ill intentions or being lazy and unappreciative of employment and hard work, you insult others who share your same opinion and definition of those same things. We want to work hard. We don't consider planning ahead for employment opportunities to be anything other than more evidence of how much we love each other and want to make sure it works. We will do whatever it takes to have our hard work and planning be rewarded and successful.

At the same time, we all know some people really are fraudulent. We all know many abuse the system. We have seen the horror stories here about relationships, life stories, and deceptions. But that doesn't mean any or all specific people are any of those things. And it seems odd to vent those traits on those willing to sticking their head out enough to express their true opinions and hopes that their hard work will pay off.

In the end, we're all trying to come to America, at least for a while, for our own blends of reasons. This is what we want, for our own reasons. The combinations of circumstances make America the choice of everyone here. We are not unappreciative. We give thanks for the reasons that lead us here. We are hard workers and we believe enough to open our mouths and be heard, even if it means disagreeing or offending someone with a differing opinion or situation. We wish others success and happiness wherever they may find it.

We share common ground. We can agree and be friends if you'd only realize it. We wish you success in your situation and for your needs, wherever you may find it. Please wish us the same, instead of wishing us failure for our differing opinions. Our commonalities are far more numerous and strong than our differences. Can you please step back, take a breath, and embrace them?

Thank you.

Edited November 28, 2008 by minibadger

[Chica Yeyé 41]

Amen.

[Galateia 1]

To the OP:

I had paralyzing doubts before I came down here, and that was 'just' a Canada > US move. A friend of mine remarked "some people get cold feet, but yours look frostbitten." I agonized over coming down here. I resented being forced to move to the US when I was happy in Canada, I resented being hustled into marriage for the sake of paperwork, I felt overwhelmed and unable to cope with the prospect of taking such a huge risk for the sake of love, however strong that love was.

My mother, in her acute wisdom, would always ask me: what would you regret more, going or staying? Phrasing it that way helped immensely; it would be better to take the risk and fail than to pass-- out of fear-- on what could be the best thing that ever happened to me. It still wasn't easy. I didn't want to go to the US. I wanted to be with my partner. I couldn't have one without the other.

I delayed my visa interview in order to earn savings that would take care of my student loan payments once I got down here, to ensure we had a more solid financial situation. The extra time helped me ease into accepting what I had to do, and to realize living without my partner was unendurable. I knew that I utterly loved him, but was it the right thing to do? Would it be enough? Were we fatally putting the cart before the horse?

Now that I am down here, the contentment and happiness of being with my partner has eclipsed the less pleasant issues I was dreading so much before I came down. They are as bad as I thought they would be, but they don't matter in light of being with my partner. I know I made the right choice, as hard as it is to be here.

I was 100% about the guy, but not sure about the move. Don't confuse the two, and find out from your fiancee which one she is having doubts about.

Edited November 28, 2008 by Galateia

[Big Papa Zone 93]

My mother, in her acute wisdom, would always ask me: what would you regret more, going or staying? Phrasing it that way helped immensely; it would be better to take the risk and fail than to pass-- out of fear-- on what could be the best thing that ever happened to me.

And there you have it in a nutshell - good old mom. That's the exact same question I asked myself, and I came up with the exact same answer.

[Big Papa Zone 93]

minibadger - very comprehensive post there. I would have just told her to stfu.

On a seperate note, could either you or Badgerella clear something up for me? With regard to the WW2 references, I was rather under the impression that Hanging In There was (for once in this thread) correct about one thing: that being that the Croats sided with the Nazis whilst the Serbs were on our side.

Please understand that I am NOT having a pop at you here, I'm just interested in the subject and would like your input.

Edited November 28, 2008 by Damian P