Serious Doubts

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I don't think the original post was asking for validation of her decision to quit wearing a hijab. So any post that judges her for this is only for the intent of condeming her. Not our place to do. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think she wanted to vent and perhaps ask for advice on how to convince her husband to accept her decision.

True, but she's claiming to be a Muslim but at the same time rejecting things that are a part of being Muslim, is she not? So the debate got started about whether or not you can just reject something. It's like saying "I'm Christian but I don't accept Jesus Christ as my saviour"...a Christian would then say "Then you're not following Christianity"... Muslims can't accept anything in the religion being changed. This is why Muslims are at war with the world...we will not change our religion regardless of how modern, liberal, or advanced the rest of the world becomes. That is a fact and the politics and the way Muslim countries are today, prove that fact.

By all means, take off the hijab and do as you wish...but don't change the religion. And that goes for any person in any religion from any country or culture. That's not judging, that's just saying "Do what you want, believe what you want, but don't change my religion."

As for the last line, I don't believe she can convince her husband, who is a Muslim, that she's not required to wear a hijab. She can only try and convince him that she doesn't want to wear it, and that she's not comfortable with it, and hope he accepts that.

Jesus is the means by which a Christian believes they will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The khimar is not the means by which Muslims believe that they will enter Jannah, so the two are not analogous. You don't wear the khimar, which you believe it to be fard, yet you imply takfir upon another Muslim, when that is explicitly disallowed by Islam. Please think about that.

As for the subject of changing the faith, many things have changed in Islam over 1400 years. The Shia/Sunni split was one of the earliest changes. It took about 250 years after the death of the Prophet to assemble the ahadith and establish the methodology of jurisprudence as we know them now. Many of the rulings that we refer to currently were developed over centuries, and there have been more than four Sunni schools that provided input into practice, and continue to do so to this day.

Caliph Umer, in accordance with his vision of the Message, refused to allow interfaith marriage for Muslim men. This is explicitly allowed in the Quran, but he saw it as disruptive to the social order, and forbade it. Many acts of the Sahaba paved the way for the concept of itjihad, the use of reasoning in determining the application of the law, and maslaha, which allows a jurist to permit or prohibit something on the basis of whether they believe it to be beneficial or detrimental to the community.

A diversity of belief about how to dress modestly is not changing the religion because Islam doesn’t prescribe any particular style; it’s about implementing directives and applying interpretations that have developed by Muslims over time within a variety of cultural contexts. The early imams understood this and did not fight it, thus a modicum of respect existed between adherents to diverse schools, even as they differed, sometimes quite significantly, about common issues in human relations.

Leyla’s choice of what to believe or what to emphasize at this time about modest dress doesn’t affect your practice, nor does it affect anyone else’s here. The struggle between Leyla and her husband is partly religious and partly cultural (because western Muslims, revert or not, are often suspect in their faith), and those are struggles that are common among Muslims for we are not all of the same mind about all things.

Some directives are specifically set in stone, some are conditional, some are interpretive. Where khimar sets on our personal continuums is not a threat to Islam and should not be given weight it doesn’t merit within the spectrum of faith practice within the Message that Allah has offered to us. It has, imo, become a diversion from the more important aspects of the faith and placed a burden on and between Muslims where Allah has not.

You just proved my point Leyla.

I'm a Muslim and I don't wear hijab. I acknowledge that I am disobeying Allah by not wearing the hijab. I'm acknowledging that I am not a good Muslimah because I don't wear the hijab.

Really simple.

But I don't go around telling people that it's not manditory and that because it's not in the Quran then it's not fard. I don't tell people to reject taking rulings from Hadith because they come from a man and not God. I don't change what has been the Islamic ruling for over 1400 years. I don't change the religion. I acknowledge that I am wrong to do what I do. Period.

I'm not judging you. You may very well go to heaven before me and a million other women wearing hijab. I'm just asking you that if you choose to be a part of this religion, then state your feelings, but don't say something is law or not.

If you choose to remain a Muslimah and choose to continue studying Islam and learning about it...one day, when you become more and more educated in Islam, you will look back on this topic. You will remember me. And you will know and understand exactly why I posted the things I did.

Oh and one more thing...let your husband read the posts. Let him read my posts and see what he thinks. Maybe he can put it more gently so that you don't keep getting so defensive.

I am 55 and have studied the faith intensely since childhood. It has been my life. Somehow, I have not come to the same conclusion about “hijab” that you have, proving that long-term education doesn’t always produce cookie cutter thought, but taqlid does.

[~PalmTreeGurl~ 154]

And if You think we dont do that in this country? I dont. I wouldnt. but we do have people who shoot each other all the time, kill, and so on. Its called gangs, KKK, white supremist. all believing they know how society should be run.

Thats the point, it happens in Every religious group, Every country. Thats why its not "all" about the muslims.

[notime4haterz 0]

LOOOOL Where on earth did you get that? LOOOOOOL

[Ban Hammer 13,110]

LOOOOL Where on earth did you get that? LOOOOOOL

had it for about 2 years, been a while since i've used it.

[notime4haterz 0]

I don't think the original post was asking for validation of her decision to quit wearing a hijab. So any post that judges her for this is only for the intent of condeming her. Not our place to do. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think she wanted to vent and perhaps ask for advice on how to convince her husband to accept her decision.

True, but she's claiming to be a Muslim but at the same time rejecting things that are a part of being Muslim, is she not? So the debate got started about whether or not you can just reject something. It's like saying "I'm Christian but I don't accept Jesus Christ as my saviour"...a Christian would then say "Then you're not following Christianity"... Muslims can't accept anything in the religion being changed. This is why Muslims are at war with the world...we will not change our religion regardless of how modern, liberal, or advanced the rest of the world becomes. That is a fact and the politics and the way Muslim countries are today, prove that fact.

By all means, take off the hijab and do as you wish...but don't change the religion. And that goes for any person in any religion from any country or culture. That's not judging, that's just saying "Do what you want, believe what you want, but don't change my religion."

As for the last line, I don't believe she can convince her husband, who is a Muslim, that she's not required to wear a hijab. She can only try and convince him that she doesn't want to wear it, and that she's not comfortable with it, and hope he accepts that.

Jesus is the means by which a Christian believes they will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The khimar is not the means by which Muslims believe that they will enter Jannah, so the two are not analogous. You don't wear the khimar, which you believe it to be fard, yet you imply takfir upon another Muslim, when that is explicitly disallowed by Islam. Please think about that.

As for the subject of changing the faith, many things have changed in Islam over 1400 years. The Shia/Sunni split was one of the earliest changes. It took about 250 years after the death of the Prophet to assemble the ahadith and establish the methodology of jurisprudence as we know them now. Many of the rulings that we refer to currently were developed over centuries, and there have been more than four Sunni schools that provided input into practice, and continue to do so to this day.

Caliph Umer, in accordance with his vision of the Message, refused to allow interfaith marriage for Muslim men. This is explicitly allowed in the Quran, but he saw it as disruptive to the social order, and forbade it. Many acts of the Sahaba paved the way for the concept of itjihad, the use of reasoning in determining the application of the law, and maslaha, which allows a jurist to permit or prohibit something on the basis of whether they believe it to be beneficial or detrimental to the community.

A diversity of belief about how to dress modestly is not changing the religion because Islam doesn’t prescribe any particular style; it’s about implementing directives and applying interpretations that have developed by Muslims over time within a variety of cultural contexts. The early imams understood this and did not fight it, thus a modicum of respect existed between adherents to diverse schools, even as they differed, sometimes quite significantly, about common issues in human relations.

Leyla’s choice of what to believe or what to emphasize at this time about modest dress doesn’t affect your practice, nor does it affect anyone else’s here. The struggle between Leyla and her husband is partly religious and partly cultural (because western Muslims, revert or not, are often suspect in their faith), and those are struggles that are common among Muslims for we are not all of the same mind about all things.

Some directives are specifically set in stone, some are conditional, some are interpretive. Where khimar sets on our personal continuums is not a threat to Islam and should not be given weight it doesn’t merit within the spectrum of faith practice within the Message that Allah has offered to us. It has, imo, become a diversion from the more important aspects of the faith and placed a burden on and between Muslims where Allah has not.

You just proved my point Leyla.

I'm a Muslim and I don't wear hijab. I acknowledge that I am disobeying Allah by not wearing the hijab. I'm acknowledging that I am not a good Muslimah because I don't wear the hijab.

Really simple.

But I don't go around telling people that it's not manditory and that because it's not in the Quran then it's not fard. I don't tell people to reject taking rulings from Hadith because they come from a man and not God. I don't change what has been the Islamic ruling for over 1400 years. I don't change the religion. I acknowledge that I am wrong to do what I do. Period.

I'm not judging you. You may very well go to heaven before me and a million other women wearing hijab. I'm just asking you that if you choose to be a part of this religion, then state your feelings, but don't say something is law or not.

If you choose to remain a Muslimah and choose to continue studying Islam and learning about it...one day, when you become more and more educated in Islam, you will look back on this topic. You will remember me. And you will know and understand exactly why I posted the things I did.

Oh and one more thing...let your husband read the posts. Let him read my posts and see what he thinks. Maybe he can put it more gently so that you don't keep getting so defensive.

I am 55 and have studied the faith intensely since childhood. It has been my life. Somehow, I have not come to the same conclusion about “hijab” that you have, proving that long-term education doesn’t always produce cookie cutter thought, but taqlid does.

I'm sorry Virtualwife, I don't know you and won't judge you. I have no idea about your education and where you were educated or what you were educated in. All I know is that I follow our known scholars in Islam and not modern people with degrees. Being a scholar would first mean being native in the Arabic language and being educated in linguistics. Then it would take being educated under another scholar from toddlerhood until old age, before a scholar would be learned in just ONE islamic science. Like I said, I have no idea what you studied and how far you've come, but I take my fatwas and rulings from scholars only. I do follow the cookie cutter rulings, because I believe things outside of the cookie cutter lead to bid3a and this is how the deen becomes polluted with things that are not true.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I realize that not all muslims follow the religion... im sure you know i meant the majority.

What other religion can you say that 8/9 (ok maybe 7, if you factor in the US muslims)out of 10 follow exactly what is in their texts?

I didnt say they were perfect. Im not saying one religion is better than the other.. I respect everyones belief systems, Thats their choice and right and if they want to worship the doorknob, or 18 different entities..i dont care as long as they dont harm me or my family.

My point was that, the difference of picking and choosing is hard for most muslims to swallow

and terrorism was never mentioned here, but you have incorporated it somehow.....i find that interesting.

Actually, most Muslims don't know what's in their texts due to the high rate of illiteracy in the Muslim world and a heavy dependance on unquestioning consulting imams as to their practice.

[Y's_habibitk 2]

Im sorry tamara, but arent you the one that used to have the link in the sig with the crazy website with the talk about muslims and how we need to join together to fight them?

So you are now saying that you personally love and relate to muslims...i have a real hard time accepting that.

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...=134877&hl=

Im sorry tamara, but arent you the one that used to have the link in the sig with the crazy website with the talk about muslims and how we need to join together to fight them?

So you are now saying that you personally love and relate to muslims...i just have a real hard time accepting that. and I had to say something, since you went there.

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...=134877&hl=

[~PalmTreeGurl~ 154]

Im sorry tamara, but arent you the one that used to have the link in the sig with the crazy website with the talk about muslims and how we need to join together to fight them?

So you are now saying that you personally love and relate to muslims...i have a real hard time accepting that.

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...=134877&hl=

Yah I actually did post that, at a time when I didnt fully read the WHOLE website of it, and I actually DID take it off there. And did I ever tell anyone that I agreed with that website ? No i didnt. And is it back on ? No its not... so the point? I dont advocate joining with anyone to fight 'muslims' Im sure my muslim friends and family would know that if i did. AND the OP asks for that thread to be closed bcz he saw all the muslims attacking me... how kind of them all

Edited November 17, 2008 by TamaraLovesAdam

[notime4haterz 0]

I don't think the original post was asking for validation of her decision to quit wearing a hijab. So any post that judges her for this is only for the intent of condeming her. Not our place to do. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think she wanted to vent and perhaps ask for advice on how to convince her husband to accept her decision.

True, but she's claiming to be a Muslim but at the same time rejecting things that are a part of being Muslim, is she not? So the debate got started about whether or not you can just reject something. It's like saying "I'm Christian but I don't accept Jesus Christ as my saviour"...a Christian would then say "Then you're not following Christianity"... Muslims can't accept anything in the religion being changed. This is why Muslims are at war with the world...we will not change our religion regardless of how modern, liberal, or advanced the rest of the world becomes. That is a fact and the politics and the way Muslim countries are today, prove that fact.

By all means, take off the hijab and do as you wish...but don't change the religion. And that goes for any person in any religion from any country or culture. That's not judging, that's just saying "Do what you want, believe what you want, but don't change my religion."

As for the last line, I don't believe she can convince her husband, who is a Muslim, that she's not required to wear a hijab. She can only try and convince him that she doesn't want to wear it, and that she's not comfortable with it, and hope he accepts that.

Jesus is the means by which a Christian believes they will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The khimar is not the means by which Muslims believe that they will enter Jannah, so the two are not analogous. You don't wear the khimar, which you believe it to be fard, yet you imply takfir upon another Muslim, when that is explicitly disallowed by Islam. Please think about that.

I never said not covering is making her a kafir. I said that changing Allah's command, which is to cover, is not allowed and you can't be Muslim but disagree with Allah

As for the subject of changing the faith, many things have changed in Islam over 1400 years. The Shia/Sunni split was one of the earliest changes. It took about 250 years after the death of the Prophet to assemble the ahadith and establish the methodology of jurisprudence as we know them now. Many of the rulings that we refer to currently were developed over centuries, and there have been more than four Sunni schools that provided input into practice, and continue to do so to this day.

And I personally don't believe that Shias which go against our Prophet or against God's word and make up things like Gabriel was in error are Muslim...that is my personal belief. The 4 schools of faith are all Sunni and they do not differ in matters that make up the core of Islam.

Caliph Umer, in accordance with his vision of the Message, refused to allow interfaith marriage for Muslim men. This is explicitly allowed in the Quran, but he saw it as disruptive to the social order, and forbade it. Many acts of the Sahaba paved the way for the concept of itjihad, the use of reasoning in determining the application of the law, and maslaha, which allows a jurist to permit or prohibit something on the basis of whether they believe it to be beneficial or detrimental to the community.

that is one reason out of a million...and there are those who make very strong arguments against men marrying non-Muslims. Some scholars have said that belief in trinity cancelled out marrying non-Muslims because the belief in the trinity took them out of monotheism and put them into polytheism, which would not allow a Muslim man to marry them. I have no opinion on this subject because I'm not a Muslim man so it does not pertain to me. I'm also not learned enough to delve into that subject or any if you want the truth...none of us are.

A diversity of belief about how to dress modestly is not changing the religion because Islam doesn’t prescribe any particular style; it’s about implementing directives and applying interpretations that have developed by Muslims over time within a variety of cultural contexts. The early imams understood this and did not fight it, thus a modicum of respect existed between adherents to diverse schools, even as they differed, sometimes quite significantly, about common issues in human relations. No imams argued whether or not hijab was a fard.

Leyla’s choice of what to believe or what to emphasize at this time about modest dress doesn’t affect your practice, nor does it affect anyone else’s here. The struggle between Leyla and her husband is partly religious and partly cultural (because western Muslims, revert or not, are often suspect in their faith), and those are struggles that are common among Muslims for we are not all of the same mind about all things.

Some directives are specifically set in stone, some are conditional, some are interpretive. Where khimar sets on our personal continuums is not a threat to Islam and should not be given weight it doesn’t merit within the spectrum of faith practice within the Message that Allah has offered to us. It has, imo, become a diversion from the more important aspects of the faith and placed a burden on and between Muslims where Allah has not.

You just proved my point Leyla.

I'm a Muslim and I don't wear hijab. I acknowledge that I am disobeying Allah by not wearing the hijab. I'm acknowledging that I am not a good Muslimah because I don't wear the hijab.

Really simple.

But I don't go around telling people that it's not manditory and that because it's not in the Quran then it's not fard. I don't tell people to reject taking rulings from Hadith because they come from a man and not God. I don't change what has been the Islamic ruling for over 1400 years. I don't change the religion. I acknowledge that I am wrong to do what I do. Period.

I'm not judging you. You may very well go to heaven before me and a million other women wearing hijab. I'm just asking you that if you choose to be a part of this religion, then state your feelings, but don't say something is law or not.

If you choose to remain a Muslimah and choose to continue studying Islam and learning about it...one day, when you become more and more educated in Islam, you will look back on this topic. You will remember me. And you will know and understand exactly why I posted the things I did.

Oh and one more thing...let your husband read the posts. Let him read my posts and see what he thinks. Maybe he can put it more gently so that you don't keep getting so defensive.

I am 55 and have studied the faith intensely since childhood. It has been my life. Somehow, I have not come to the same conclusion about “hijab” that you have, proving that long-term education doesn’t always produce cookie cutter thought, but taqlid does.

[Y's_habibitk 2]

Well, Im sorry... I assumed you did since most of the hate talk was on the opening page of the site... and ya, thanks for removing it

[notime4haterz 0]

Im sorry tamara, but arent you the one that used to have the link in the sig with the crazy website with the talk about muslims and how we need to join together to fight them?

So you are now saying that you personally love and relate to muslims...i have a real hard time accepting that.

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...=134877&hl=

Yah I actually did post that, at a time when I didnt fully read the WHOLE website of it, and I actually DID take it off there. And did I ever tell anyone that I agreed with that website ? No i didnt. And is it back on ? No its not... so the point? I dont advocate joining with anyone to fight 'muslims' Im sure my muslim friends and family would know that if i did. AND the OP asks for that thread to be closed bcz he saw all the muslims attacking me... how kind of them all

Hmm...interesting... figures! I kind of wondered why she was provoking Leyla to stand up to her husband about hijab and dismissing it and his feelings like he was wrong to want her to wear it... I could be wrong but that was the first gut feeling I got from her posts...

I'm sorry Leyla that you post got hijacked in a million different directions...but I guess that's to be expected from us Muslims...you know, we hijack everything LOOOOOL

Edited November 17, 2008 by narina77

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I'm sorry Virtualwife, I don't know you and won't judge you. I have no idea about your education and where you were educated or what you were educated in. All I know is that I follow our known scholars in Islam and not modern people with degrees. Being a scholar would first mean being native in the Arabic language and being educated in linguistics. Then it would take being educated under another scholar from toddlerhood until old age, before a scholar would be learned in just ONE islamic science. Like I said, I have no idea what you studied and how far you've come, but I take my fatwas and rulings from scholars only. I do follow the cookie cutter rulings, because I believe things outside of the cookie cutter lead to bid3a and this is how the deen becomes polluted with things that are not true.

I appreciate your wish not to judge me, and I will make the effort not to do that to you. I will remind you, however, that the rulings in Islam, even by the founders of the four major Sunni schools and their recognized scholars are not cookie cutter; they vary about 25% between schools, and often in ways that are in direct opposition to each other. This is not considered to be a bida, or a pollutant to the faith. In fact, the ability to be flexible and merciful is a strength in Islam. The Quran itself is only about 10% legislative, but it is habit for modern Muslims to put a great deal of emphasis on legalisms that stifle intellectual growth rather than allowances that encourage understanding. This is a notable mistake worthy of examination.

[~PalmTreeGurl~ 154]

Im not provoking Leyla, but I know there are muslim women that do not agree on wearing hijab... She shouldnt be forced into it just bcz her husband thinks its going to make him look good or whatever other reason he may have. I told her straight up that her faith is just that- her faith. I come from a Jewish background of my biological mothers side, but I am a Christian. My husband grew up Muslim and been Christian since before I met him. Covering the hair is a personal matter for me- its a culture sensitive issue as well. and its not my husbands decision. I give answers to GOD for my own doings no matter what. She should too. I see too many muslim AND christian women fighting each other like cats on who is more modestly dressed by how covered they are. I rather one be more modest in their heart and live and act right in life than worry about how much of their 5'6" skin is covered...

Edited November 17, 2008 by TamaraLovesAdam

[notime4haterz 0]

I'm sorry Virtualwife, I don't know you and won't judge you. I have no idea about your education and where you were educated or what you were educated in. All I know is that I follow our known scholars in Islam and not modern people with degrees. Being a scholar would first mean being native in the Arabic language and being educated in linguistics. Then it would take being educated under another scholar from toddlerhood until old age, before a scholar would be learned in just ONE islamic science. Like I said, I have no idea what you studied and how far you've come, but I take my fatwas and rulings from scholars only. I do follow the cookie cutter rulings, because I believe things outside of the cookie cutter lead to bid3a and this is how the deen becomes polluted with things that are not true.

I appreciate your wish not to judge me, and I will make the effort not to do that to you. I will remind you, however, that the rulings in Islam, even by the founders of the four major Sunni schools and their recognized scholars are not cookie cutter; they vary about 25% between schools, and often in ways that are in direct opposition to each other. This is not considered to be a bida, or a pollutant to the faith. In fact, the ability to be flexible and merciful is a strength in Islam. The Quran itself is only about 10% legislative, but it is habit for modern Muslims to put a great deal of emphasis on legalisms that stifle intellectual growth rather than allowances that encourage understanding. This is a notable mistake worthy of examination.

They are like this because they are afraid that if they allow too many allowances, they will start to change the religion. This is an understandable fear. However, I do believe in the need for more people to become educated in the religion, especially women, so that they know their rights and don't allow men to take those rights away from them.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

No imams argued whether or not hijab was a fard.

Hijab is fard because hijab is an element of modesty, but hijab in Islamic law is not merely a style of dress. The style of dress and what is required has changed over time and was and is debated among scholars. BTW, imams are not always scholars or even educated, but many of those who do have modern degrees in law are allowed to issue valid rulings.