Serious Doubts

[notime4haterz 0]

http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/9067

Here is a fatwa by a scholar.

His answer about rejecting hadith is perfect, with all the Quranic proofs you can possibly want.

Even if you have made up your mind, I think it's good reading. It addresses the concerns you mentioned about Hadith and about how man makes mistakes, etc.

"My dear"?

Personally, I don't really care what anyone has to say about it. And I'm guessing we have different opinions about what constitutes a fact.

I was typing like I was talking out loud LOL...I usually go back and read my stuff for edit, but I didn't. Sorry if it offended, I know some ladies don't like people to call them by those names.

[notime4haterz 0]

You cannot dismiss Hadith and claim to be a Muslim. By all means, you can be a spiritual person and have strong faith in God...but to be a Muslim means that you accept the Quran and the Hadith.

That's an opinion, not a fact.

No my dear, that is a fact. You don't have to take my word on any of these things. Ask a Muslim scholar.

Actually, for Leyla, the best thing is probably to get some advice from a Muslim scholar.

I agree with all that you have said. And I sent her a video from a Muslim Shcolar who is a convert, who never new Quran before he became Muslim, but he studied it and he explains it well.

Even when I took hijab off for awhile, I could never tell someone you dont have to wear it.

By the way I met my hubby online in Islamic site. He saw first pics of me in Hijab. But I told him that I had taken it off, and when we met for first time etc. I did not wear it. Even I did not wear it agian untill after he came here. He told me he cant force me to wear it , it has to be my decision. However he is much happier now that I am wearing it as we both feel its importance. Yet if I took it off he would not be happy but he would not leave me for it. However if a man is very strong in his deen and religion and feels its importance how can you put him down for that?

I don't know...I guess I have to keep reminding myself that I'm on visajourney and not a muslim sisters forum. I'm Muslim but many of the women who married Muslim men are not...so we see things differently. I hope you finally got comfortable wearing the hijab and wish you the best. Your husband sounds like he's open minded and gentle. My husband is also like that. He would never force me into anything...just give his loving advice

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Leyla, as a born Muslima, I do not pretend to know the experience of converted Muslimas, however, it is clear that there is a great deal of pressure on them to conform with a specific cultural norm identified with the community they are dealing with. These communities tend to be Old World oriented, and also tend to dismiss the idea that western Muslims have a valid right to question the practices being represented as authoritative and binding by God on all Muslims, and to develop interpretations that are relevant to life here. That disconnect diverts eager learning into defensiveness, and creates barriers to discovering and rediscovering the intense beauty of Islam.

I have a Ph.D in Islamic legal history, and work with questioning Islamic scholars with ijazah everyday. From my own learning, I feel quite comfortable claiming that Islam doesn't require the khimar for Muslimas, and that its genesis in Islam is primarily cultural and ritualistic. The problem with saying that Islam requires women to cover their hair is that as the Quran says nothing to that affect and many oft quoted hadith about it are weak.

Even legitimate scholars disagree re the issue, noting that the history of the practice not only predates Islam, but that cultural interpretations of the ME have tended to override the content and intent of the texts. It is as much of a problem when Muslims put so much emphasis and importance on a symbol that has an ambiguous, and often political, meaning, and on traditions that serve to allow for stagnation in ME norms. One cannot say with sincerity that practice in the ME is the glorious reflection of the Message of Allah and the Sunnah of our Nabi, even with scholars all around.

The Quran is clear, the term hijab is not used there to refer to dress. The term "khimar" is the word used in Q 24:31. In the Prophet’s time, the khimar was a shapeless utility cloth that was used by men and women, serving many purposes, including being worn to protect one from the elements. Linguistically, it was not a head cover, and there was no admonition requiring the concealment of hair, much less the constant covering of it.

Over time, the scholars determined that for the purpose of law, khimar was to be considered a veil, one to be worn as a show of piety to Allah. However, during the Prophet’s time and those of the early Caliphs who had learned directly from him, the rule of the khimar did not hold to the current interpretation. In fact, all slave women, Muslim or not, were not allowed by law to cover; their ‘awra was the same as a man, between the navel and the knees.

This law was upheld by Caliph Umer, for example, who continued the practice of distinguishing free women and slave women by their clothing. The ayah recommending that cloaks be drawn so that one would be recognized and not molested is a direct reference to this practice, for slave women were commonly open to harassment.

Hijab as an indicator of class is also found elsewhere in the history of the faith. With slave women at one end of the class spectrum, at the other end was a man whose wife or wives wore niquab. He was perceived as very well-off, for it was clear that his wife/wives did not need to labor. There have been periods in Muslim history when the khimar has been discarded and when it has been held holy. I have lived through both, and right now, we are in a hijab is holy period, fueled, imo, by Gulf oil and the cultural reach it has provided to more conservative sects of the faith.

One must remember that the Message was revealed worldwide, so the way one culture might interpret a passage in terms of how to implement it in practice can be different from another culture and be just as legitimate. That is why there have been many competing schools of thought in Islam over the centuries. It is also a fact that Islam is not an Arab faith, and that Arab norms and interpretations are not necessarily Islamic norms, although that is such an entrenched perception, it is difficult to argue against it. One of the scholars I work with is fond of saying that if Polynesia had been the home of the seal of the Prophet, we’d be debating wearing grass skirts as a commitment to the faith and Allah.

Muslims in the west have the struggle set before them in demanding that their scholars and other leaders develop interpretations that allow for proper practice, but that they need not feel bound to merely mimicking the cultural norms of areas that lay claim to tradition. Our first obligation is to the Word, not to what makes Old World Muslims feel comfortable and at home.

To do so is not a bida, for the Quran refers to its spread among other cultures and the appropriateness of introducing the Word to a people in a way they will understand increase devotion. Hijab, not being a pillar of faith, has been one of those issues that tends to compromise faith, create division and sow the seeds of doubt. As such, its profile must be reexamined and lowered to reflect its true place in the faith, below that of salah, shahadah, zakat, sawn, and hajj, and also the basic belief that Islam is a faith that provides for a personal and intimate relationship with God in one’s development of knowledge and adoration. Allah is best of planners for our lives. May He guide us all.

Leyla, I can recommend two books that may be of interest to you where you are on your path at this time, for a little skepticism about people pushing you to do this or that is healthy.

Believing as Ourselves, is a well worn favorite among convert women.

Losing My Religion, A Call for Help. an examination of the need for interpretations incorporation the reality of Muslim life in the west.

Both were written by converts to Islam. Both detail issues common to this ummah. Insha'allah, you will find them to be helpful.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Virtual wife

[Leyla 0]

Leyla, as a born Muslima, I do not pretend to know the experience of converted Muslimas, however, it is clear that there is a great deal of pressure on them to conform with a specific cultural norm identified with the community they are dealing with. These communities tend to be Old World oriented, and also tend to dismiss the idea that western Muslims have a valid right to question the practices being represented as authoritative and binding by God on all Muslims, and to develop interpretations that are relevant to life here. That disconnect diverts eager learning into defensiveness, and creates barriers to discovering and rediscovering the intense beauty of Islam.

I have a Ph.D in Islamic legal history, and work with questioning Islamic scholars with ijazah everyday. From my own learning, I feel quite comfortable claiming that Islam doesn't require the khimar for Muslimas, and that its genesis in Islam is primarily cultural and ritualistic. The problem with saying that Islam requires women to cover their hair is that as the Quran says nothing to that affect and many oft quoted hadith about it are weak.

Even legitimate scholars disagree re the issue, noting that the history of the practice not only predates Islam, but that cultural interpretations of the ME have tended to override the content and intent of the texts. It is as much of a problem when Muslims put so much emphasis and importance on a symbol that has an ambiguous, and often political, meaning, and on traditions that serve to allow for stagnation in ME norms. One cannot say with sincerity that practice in the ME is the glorious reflection of the Message of Allah and the Sunnah of our Nabi, even with scholars all around.

The Quran is clear, the term hijab is not used there to refer to dress. The term "khimar" is the word used in Q 24:31. In the Prophet’s time, the khimar was a shapeless utility cloth that was used by men and women, serving many purposes, including being worn to protect one from the elements. Linguistically, it was not a head cover, and there was no admonition requiring the concealment of hair, much less the constant covering of it.

Over time, the scholars determined that for the purpose of law, khimar was to be considered a veil, one to be worn as a show of piety to Allah. However, during the Prophet’s time and those of the early Caliphs who had learned directly from him, the rule of the khimar did not hold to the current interpretation. In fact, all slave women, Muslim or not, were not allowed by law to cover; their ‘awra was the same as a man, between the navel and the knees.

This law was upheld by Caliph Umer, for example, who continued the practice of distinguishing free women and slave women by their clothing. The ayah recommending that cloaks be drawn so that one would be recognized and not molested is a direct reference to this practice, for slave women were commonly open to harassment.

Hijab as an indicator of class is also found elsewhere in the history of the faith. With slave women at one end of the class spectrum, at the other end was a man whose wife or wives wore niquab. He was perceived as very well-off, for it was clear that his wife/wives did not need to labor. There have been periods in Muslim history when the khimar has been discarded and when it has been held holy. I have lived through both, and right now, we are in a hijab is holy period, fueled, imo, by Gulf oil and the cultural reach it has provided to more conservative sects of the faith.

One must remember that the Message was revealed worldwide, so the way one culture might interpret a passage in terms of how to implement it in practice can be different from another culture and be just as legitimate. That is why there have been many competing schools of thought in Islam over the centuries. It is also a fact that Islam is not an Arab faith, and that Arab norms and interpretations are not necessarily Islamic norms, although that is such an entrenched perception, it is difficult to argue against it. One of the scholars I work with is fond of saying that if Polynesia had been the home of the seal of the Prophet, we’d be debating wearing grass skirts as a commitment to the faith and Allah.

Muslims in the west have the struggle set before them in demanding that their scholars and other leaders develop interpretations that allow for proper practice, but that they need not feel bound to merely mimicking the cultural norms of areas that lay claim to tradition. Our first obligation is to the Word, not to what makes Old World Muslims feel comfortable and at home.

To do so is not a bida, for the Quran refers to its spread among other cultures and the appropriateness of introducing the Word to a people in a way they will understand increase devotion. Hijab, not being a pillar of faith, has been one of those issues that tends to compromise faith, create division and sow the seeds of doubt. As such, its profile must be reexamined and lowered to reflect its true place in the faith, below that of salah, shahadah, zakat, sawn, and hajj, and also the basic belief that Islam is a faith that provides for a personal and intimate relationship with God in one’s development of knowledge and adoration. Allah is best of planners for our lives. May He guide us all.

Leyla, I can recommend two books that may be of interest to you where you are on your path at this time, for a little skepticism about people pushing you to do this or that is healthy.

Believing as Ourselves, is a well worn favorite among convert women.

Losing My Religion, A Call for Help. an examination of the need for interpretations incorporation the reality of Muslim life in the west.

Both were written by converts to Islam. Both detail issues common to this ummah. Insha'allah, you will find them to be helpful.

Thank you. That is the most intelligent post I've seen.

[sweet_peach 0]

Perhaps he could wear it for a while... see how that goes

Terrific idea....

Why do mean seem to think that we need to do something from them or we do things in spite of them?

This is a great idea to let him wear it for awhile IN THE HOT SUN WITH NO A/C....

[Y's_habibitk 2]

Leyla,

I am in no position to say weather you should or shouldnt wear hijab. And I think you orgianally posted to get some support on how its effecting your marriage not, if you should or shouldnt. I hope you guys can work this out.

Try to put yourself in your husbands shoes though and maybe you can find a way to approach it with more sympathy.

If you had always wanted a husband who say..didnt drink. and this was a very imprtant trait that you wanted in your partner. And then you found a man you really loved and he did not drink, said he had no plans of taking up drinking. Then one day he started talking about drinking and that he really wanted to try it.

Then he told you that he would start drinking and it had nothing to do with you, you had no say in it and you should just find a way to accept it.

Im not saying this to make you feel bad, im just suggesting that if you try to put yourself in his shoes, then you guys may have an easier time communicating and adjusting to your new desicion.

Good luck to you guys

Lisa

[notime4haterz 0]

Thank you. That is the most intelligent post I've seen.

That's because it's what you want to hear...

I mean this in the nicest way, and I know no matter how I put it, it's gonna sound rude, but that's not my intention...

You asked for advice and I tried to give you an honest answer...as well as show you a scholar's written answer to your "serious doubts".

In the end it's like Lisa said, it's about you trying to make your marriage last.

Whatever you decide in your hijab issue, I hope you can keep your marriage together and make it last.

I also hope you find friendlier Muslims that can make you more comfortable and welcome you, so you don't feel like we're all just against you and judging you for being a convert. That was also never my intention to make you feel that way.

[morocco4ever 63]

I don't think the original post was asking for validation of her decision to quit wearing a hijab. So any post that judges her for this is only for the intent of condeming her. Not our place to do. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think she wanted to vent and perhaps ask for advice on how to convince her husband to accept her decision.

[notime4haterz 0]

I don't think the original post was asking for validation of her decision to quit wearing a hijab. So any post that judges her for this is only for the intent of condeming her. Not our place to do. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think she wanted to vent and perhaps ask for advice on how to convince her husband to accept her decision.

True, but she's claiming to be a Muslim but at the same time rejecting things that are a part of being Muslim, is she not? So the debate got started about whether or not you can just reject something. It's like saying "I'm Christian but I don't accept Jesus Christ as my saviour"...a Christian would then say "Then you're not following Christianity"... Muslims can't accept anything in the religion being changed. This is why Muslims are at war with the world...we will not change our religion regardless of how modern, liberal, or advanced the rest of the world becomes. That is a fact and the politics and the way Muslim countries are today, prove that fact.

By all means, take off the hijab and do as you wish...but don't change the religion. And that goes for any person in any religion from any country or culture. That's not judging, that's just saying "Do what you want, believe what you want, but don't change my religion."

As for the last line, I don't believe she can convince her husband, who is a Muslim, that she's not required to wear a hijab. She can only try and convince him that she doesn't want to wear it, and that she's not comfortable with it, and hope he accepts that.

[Leyla 0]

I don't think the original post was asking for validation of her decision to quit wearing a hijab. So any post that judges her for this is only for the intent of condeming her. Not our place to do. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think she wanted to vent and perhaps ask for advice on how to convince her husband to accept her decision.

Bingo. It just turned into the hijab issue...

I am going to do what I'm doing for now. He seems to have calmed down. We'll see where this goes. I'm just frustrated. I think too far into the future I guess. Thank you for those of you that are just trying to help. I appreciate it.

I just have one question.... narina77 are you Muslim? And if so, why are you so sure about the scarf being a requirement when you're not wearing it in any of your pictures? And if those are old pictures then as a Muslima wearing the hijab I would think that you would not show old pictures? I just don't understand why you are so passionate about the hijab when I don't see it on your head.

[morocco4ever 63]

I don't think the original post was asking for validation of her decision to quit wearing a hijab. So any post that judges her for this is only for the intent of condeming her. Not our place to do. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think she wanted to vent and perhaps ask for advice on how to convince her husband to accept her decision.

True, but she's claiming to be a Muslim but at the same time rejecting things that are a part of being Muslim, is she not? So the debate got started about whether or not you can just reject something. It's like saying "I'm Christian but I don't accept Jesus Christ as my saviour"...a Christian would then say "Then you're not following Christianity"... Muslims can't accept anything in the religion being changed. This is why Muslims are at war with the world...we will not change our religion regardless of how modern, liberal, or advanced the rest of the world becomes. That is a fact and the politics and the way Muslim countries are today, prove that fact.

By all means, take off the hijab and do as you wish...but don't change the religion. And that goes for any person in any religion from any country or culture. That's not judging, that's just saying "Do what you want, believe what you want, but don't change my religion."

As for the last line, I don't believe she can convince her husband, who is a Muslim, that she's not required to wear a hijab. She can only try and convince him that she doesn't want to wear it, and that she's not comfortable with it, and hope he accepts that.

I don't recall her stating that she is trying to change the religion, or trying to change anyone else for that matter. If she wants to question the beliefs it is her right, and it is not our right to judge. If she had asked on here for proof then I could understand the posts. If someone told me that I have to accept a religion blindly because they said so I would have to be concerned about that particular religion. Everyone has the right to research and decide for themselves.

As I stated in my advice to her OP I stated that he has a right to not accept this since she was wearing it at the time. Ultimately it is his decision. My husband would be happy if I wore one, but he also let me know it is my choice. I choose not to, and he still loves me. But I wasn't wearing one when we married.

[Leyla 0]

I don't think the original post was asking for validation of her decision to quit wearing a hijab. So any post that judges her for this is only for the intent of condeming her. Not our place to do. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think she wanted to vent and perhaps ask for advice on how to convince her husband to accept her decision.

True, but she's claiming to be a Muslim but at the same time rejecting things that are a part of being Muslim, is she not? So the debate got started about whether or not you can just reject something. It's like saying "I'm Christian but I don't accept Jesus Christ as my saviour"...a Christian would then say "Then you're not following Christianity"... Muslims can't accept anything in the religion being changed. This is why Muslims are at war with the world...we will not change our religion regardless of how modern, liberal, or advanced the rest of the world becomes. That is a fact and the politics and the way Muslim countries are today, prove that fact.

By all means, take off the hijab and do as you wish...but don't change the religion. And that goes for any person in any religion from any country or culture. That's not judging, that's just saying "Do what you want, believe what you want, but don't change my religion."

As for the last line, I don't believe she can convince her husband, who is a Muslim, that she's not required to wear a hijab. She can only try and convince him that she doesn't want to wear it, and that she's not comfortable with it, and hope he accepts that.

Ok.... I think the thread should close. Because I think that comment went over the edge. All I want to say is: How dare you tell me what my religion is or is not. The scarf does not make a person a Muslim. I doubt you or ANYONE ELSE (including me) is a 100% perfect Muslim. So stop judging me. Only God judges.

Just stop.

[morocco4ever 63]

I don't think the original post was asking for validation of her decision to quit wearing a hijab. So any post that judges her for this is only for the intent of condeming her. Not our place to do. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think she wanted to vent and perhaps ask for advice on how to convince her husband to accept her decision.

Bingo. It just turned into the hijab issue...

I am going to do what I'm doing for now. He seems to have calmed down. We'll see where this goes. I'm just frustrated. I think too far into the future I guess. Thank you for those of you that are just trying to help. I appreciate it.

I just have one question.... narina77 are you Muslim? And if so, why are you so sure about the scarf being a requirement when you're not wearing it in any of your pictures? And if those are old pictures then as a Muslima wearing the hijab I would think that you would not show old pictures? I just don't understand why you are so passionate about the hijab when I don't see it on your head.

Okay now she has opened the subject to discussion. Now discuss away. But at least keep it general, not an attack on a person for their decisions.

[Leyla 0]

Thanks for being a sweetheart morocco4ever.

[morocco4ever 63]

Thanks for being a sweetheart morocco4ever.

Your welcome Leyla. Too bad not everyone agrees about me being a sweetheart however, but thats okay. I have a pretty thick skin.