If this video doesnt move you, then nothing ever will!

[danae 0]

Actually dolphins are documented to have a #######. And incidentally so is the Bovine. If you wish see :

Randel RD, Short RE, Christesen DS, Bellows RA., 1975,

Effect of clitoral massage after artificial insemination on conception in the bovine. J Anim Sci. Jun;40(6):1119-23.

So do carnivores, rodents, bats, primates- im personally not aware of a mammal that does not.

Although it is documented that only Dolphins and the Bonobo females 'enjoy' sex, having worked with numerous species of New world primate, I have seen evidence to indicate they do also. Some, not all, would frequently engage in masturbation- I have seen some very skilled use of the prehensile tail!! Is almost enough to make you wish you had your own!!

Anyway, we are way off topic now

Oh and as for the comment that cows are not pets, no in our society they are considered food. But in other cultures the idea of slaughtering a cow is just as ghastly as our idea of killing a cat or dog. And again, in other cultures, nothing is thought of in eating cats and dogs. It is all cultural, and societal, and again nothing to do with ethics, morality or nature.

Diverging slightly, having some vegetarian friends, it never ceases to amaze me how while they won't eat meat they will eat these veggie substitutes that are designed to have the meat texture and flavour.

Always thought that was a little weird - they don't want the personal moral consequences of eating the animal, but psychologically at least that's exactly what they're doing.

Its a bit like that fake child porn for pedophiles, featuring adult age, but preteen-looking models. While its not 'real', the fantasy that goes on in their head certainly is.

These meat substitutes you refer to are designed to aid the transition for those who were raised eating meat to vegetarianism. They are also useful in social situations such as barbeques so one does not feel alienated.

I see no problem with them, they are a product produced without death. And so 'psychologically at least' they are not being hypocritical in their moral choices. They are enjoying their food with a clear conscience. Soy is high in protein, low in fat and a healthy choice of food.

Quite frankly, I find it disturbing that you can link this with child porn.

[Chuckles 0]

Well you are right and I am wrong. My bad. I thought that is what I was told.

[danae 0]

Well you are right and I am wrong. My bad. I thought that is what I was told.

does that mean its my turn to use the bonky thing now?! yay! bonk!

[Tim and Bethanie 1]

Rape rack is the term most commonly used by farmers when a cow is ARTIFICIALLY inseminated, lik I said. The Bull has no physical contact in this instance- his sperm is obtained by a human and put by that human into a cow. So no the Bull can not be considered a 'rapist' rather he is also 'raped'.

When you refer to the word 'humane' your point means nothing to me. Yes it contains the word 'human' but it is a word created by the human species. The human world is restrained by the languages we create. For example, are we ever actually able to feel an emotion if we did not have a word to describe that emotion? My point being that 'words' mean very little in nature.

In the same stance, your reference to the fact it is legal to euthanise a non-human animal, but illegal to euthanise a human as an arguement is again flawed. Laws are things in the human world, not in nature and they mean squat to non-human animals. Laws are rarely in direct line with morality, and are changed all the time, so by using the case that it is illegal to euthanise a human in no suggests that in the great scheme of things we are somehow a superior, higher being. We just decided we are.

Furthermore, I am not saying a non-human animal should stand before a human- I never did say that. But I do consider they can be murdered yes of course. Do you have any 'pets'? If a stranger broke into your property and slit the throat of that pet would you not consider that murder?!

If you are not superior to Betsy the cow, then go take up residence in a pasture, chew on some nice blue grass, and wheat then bring your argument back to the table!

We did not decide we were a superior being, evolution proves this. We don't eat our young, we don't lick our arces (ranks up there with my dog taking treats from the cats litter box), we have evolved to know not to stand under a tree during a lightning storm this list goes on and on. Try an experiment, put hungry Rover out next to your veggie garden and turn an Easter bunny loose tell me which one he goes for first. Now if you and I were hungry and placed in the same situation, we would pick a ripe tomato first. Why? Well we have a thought process, that animals can not compete with, we are smart enough to know it is waisted energy to run after a rabbit vs. picking a vegetable. Hence the farming of livestock for slaughter, so what we took the work out of the hunt, this is because we have some INTELLIGENCE.

If you read into this you will see, that yes I have pets. Matter of fact 5-6 days a week I head off to my job caring for animals 8-10 hours a day. I chose my employment because I have a love of animals, see my earlier post with photo. So to answer your question on my pet having its throat slit, well I would thank my lucky stars it wasn't my child, spouse or self, I would consider it harsh and cruel but murder, not a chance! If my child were trampled by a herd of cattle, I wouldn't consider that murder either simply because they are animals with no thought process to differentiate between life and death! This is what makes us SUPERIOR!

The point of this thread was to show cruel treatment SOMETIMES used in the process of providing meat to humans. Everyone that has posted agrees that yes this sort of treatment is not necessary, but the majority of us also know these are a select few cases of what takes place in the process.

I just feel you have used the terms, murder and rape a bit lightly. Yes they are only words, but words used to define an event. If a human was faced with a steel rod aimed at their brain, they would fight and try to run, livestock don't do this, ask yourself why. If a woman or child is being raped, they don't stand and chew their cud with their eyes closed, while swatting a horse fly that has landed on their hip, and then head off to Mc Donalds for lunch like nothing happened! It is a joke to even make this reference, and it is one that I do not find amusing! Your comparison of these situations is sickening.

[danae 0]

Rape rack is the term most commonly used by farmers when a cow is ARTIFICIALLY inseminated, lik I said. The Bull has no physical contact in this instance- his sperm is obtained by a human and put by that human into a cow. So no the Bull can not be considered a 'rapist' rather he is also 'raped'.

When you refer to the word 'humane' your point means nothing to me. Yes it contains the word 'human' but it is a word created by the human species. The human world is restrained by the languages we create. For example, are we ever actually able to feel an emotion if we did not have a word to describe that emotion? My point being that 'words' mean very little in nature.

In the same stance, your reference to the fact it is legal to euthanise a non-human animal, but illegal to euthanise a human as an arguement is again flawed. Laws are things in the human world, not in nature and they mean squat to non-human animals. Laws are rarely in direct line with morality, and are changed all the time, so by using the case that it is illegal to euthanise a human in no suggests that in the great scheme of things we are somehow a superior, higher being. We just decided we are.

Furthermore, I am not saying a non-human animal should stand before a human- I never did say that. But I do consider they can be murdered yes of course. Do you have any 'pets'? If a stranger broke into your property and slit the throat of that pet would you not consider that murder?!

If you are not superior to Betsy the cow, then go take up residence in a pasture, chew on some nice blue grass, and wheat then bring your argument back to the table!

We did not decide we were a superior being, evolution proves this. We don't eat our young, we don't lick our arces (ranks up there with my dog taking treats from the cats litter box), we have evolved to know not to stand under a tree during a lightning storm this list goes on and on. Try an experiment, put hungry Rover out next to your veggie garden and turn an Easter bunny loose tell me which one he goes for first. Now if you and I were hungry and placed in the same situation, we would pick a ripe tomato first. Why? Well we have a thought process, that animals can not compete with, we are smart enough to know it is waisted energy to run after a rabbit vs. picking a vegetable. Hence the farming of livestock for slaughter, so what we took the work out of the hunt, this is because we have some INTELLIGENCE.

If you read into this you will see, that yes I have pets. Matter of fact 5-6 days a week I head off to my job caring for animals 8-10 hours a day. I chose my employment because I have a love of animals, see my earlier post with photo. So to answer your question on my pet having its throat slit, well I would thank my lucky stars it wasn't my child, spouse or self, I would consider it harsh and cruel but murder, not a chance! If my child were trampled by a herd of cattle, I wouldn't consider that murder either simply because they are animals with no thought process to differentiate between life and death! This is what makes us SUPERIOR!

The point of this thread was to show cruel treatment SOMETIMES used in the process of providing meat to humans. Everyone that has posted agrees that yes this sort of treatment is not necessary, but the majority of us also know these are a select few cases of what takes place in the process.

I just feel you have used the terms, murder and rape a bit lightly. Yes they are only words, but words used to define an event. If a human was faced with a steel rod aimed at their brain, they would fight and try to run, livestock don't do this, ask yourself why. If a woman or child is being raped, they don't stand and chew their cud with their eyes closed, while swatting a horse fly that has landed on their hip, and then head off to Mc Donalds for lunch like nothing happened! It is a joke to even make this reference, and it is one that I do not find amusing! Your comparison of these situations is sickening.

Look you were obviously raised to think that way, I was raised differently. I was raised to have ULTIMATE respect for all life. That means never taking another life (or pay someone else to do it) unnecessarily. End of.

I never denied that humans have a higher intellect. But does that mean that with that we get the privalege to do whatever the hell we want to all other life on this planet we share?! As for your 'Rover' scenario thing, of course he would go for the bunny- he is a carnivore.

To say other species are not intelligent enough to know where theirenergy is best places is a joke! That is called instinct, and they use their a whole lot better than we use ours. Think about the energy we waster in out practices. We use a huge expanse of land, grain and water to feed an animal. Wwe then eat that animal. but if we had used the land, grain and water we could have fed a whole lot more people- and maybe human starvation would be less prevalent. A Minority Staff of Senate Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition & Forestry report states the beef in just one Big Mac represents enough wheat to make five loaves of bread.

As for using the case that we dont 'lick our arses' to implicate our superiority- please. Firstly, few humans are built to allow us to do that. Secondly, it serves a useful purpose in other species- they dont just do it for a laugh.

In my opinion, other species have the upper hand on a whole lot of things. You say they would not know not to stand under a tree when there is lightening. How do you know? You say you work with animals, well then you will see they are aware of things we are often not, because our instincts have been covered with societal c**p. For example, when a dog barks when the neighbours house is being robbed, or when all the wild animals fled for the hills when the recent tsunami hit- if we are so smart why didnt we do that?

And as for saying livestock dont try to fight when faced with murder- have you ever been in a slaughtehouse?!

[Mirorgate 0]

wow... rape rack.. hmmm. I grew up on a farm, thats the first I ever heard of it.

artificietl insemination is a fact.. but because of the animals safety and concern, not because of "profit". you know how much they charge per animal? and yes safety... ever see horses, bulls, etc fight to get mating rights in a herd? or how rough they are with the female?

My parents used to get irritated as i brought home every stray animal I could find, including wild ones around the farm... badgers, cats, dogs, almost a lynx once... but thats another story. I care about animals, and wish for them to survive, but that takes conservation.. and sometimes that conservation is leaving them the hell alone and let them do their thing. without over indulging our own greeds\needs.

instinct is also very different from developed reasoning. cows to the slaughter house smell the blood and fear of being in a new unfamiliar place. sheep too are like that. and yes, been to one many times... i dont like those places. dark, grim, and smell of blood.

[almaty 19]

wow... rape rack.. hmmm. I grew up on a farm, thats the first I ever heard of it.

artificietl insemination is a fact.. but because of the animals safety and concern, not because of "profit". you know how much they charge per animal? and yes safety... ever see horses, bulls, etc fight to get mating rights in a herd? or how rough they are with the female?

My parents used to get irritated as i brought home every stray animal I could find, including wild ones around the farm... badgers, cats, dogs, almost a lynx once... but thats another story. I care about animals, and wish for them to survive, but that takes conservation.. and sometimes that conservation is leaving them the hell alone and let them do their thing. without over indulging our own greeds\needs.

instinct is also very different from developed reasoning. cows to the slaughter house smell the blood and fear of being in a new unfamiliar place. sheep too are like that. and yes, been to one many times... i dont like those places. dark, grim, and smell of blood.

good post brother mirror

[yabasta 0]

On the point of veggie burgers and sausages etc i think it is worth pointing out that animals are not burger shaped(most anyway ha). The burger is just a handy shape that meat and meat substitutes are made into. Not sure the history of these shapes. Yes they are on the whole sold to people who are raised to eat burgers and hot dogs and still wish to have something in a bun or next to some fries. The modern meat diet does not have much to do with the natural history of eating meat. I am sure back in the olden days people didn`t kill a cow then process it and make it fit into a sesame seed bun. If vegetarians went around chopping the head off a cow shaped soy bean then maybe. I think i took your thought too far here so i will stop that.

I am baffled by how some of you are so certain about how a cow feels or what they feel. Besides the feelign should come from you not fromt he cow. You as a human being should feel fr the cow`s pain. Yes death is a part of life for animals and humans but we as humane humans should try and make that process as painless as possible for all humans and all animals. That is my opinion. I am not saying animals are superior to humans but i would never assume to be superior to an animal either. In fact it could be argued that human beings are the least humane animals on earth.

[Ban Hammer 13,887]

Actually dolphins are documented to have a #######.

shhh...don't tell that to roi

[Mirorgate 0]

Actually dolphins are documented to have a #######.

shhh...don't tell that to roi

I thought he mentioned that he had already gone swimming with the dolphins at one point?

[Sister Fracas 5]

I love VJ... from cow-shaped veggie burgers to Roi swimming with dolphins with clitorii...

[Nessa 23]

I love VJ... from cow-shaped veggie burgers to Roi swimming with dolphins with clitorii...

jesus this thread went from raising animals for food to Roi swimming with dolphins with #######

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Diverging slightly, having some vegetarian friends, it never ceases to amaze me how while they won't eat meat they will eat these veggie substitutes that are designed to have the meat texture and flavour.

Always thought that was a little weird - they don't want the personal moral consequences of eating the animal, but psychologically at least that's exactly what they're doing.

Its a bit like that fake child porn for pedophiles, featuring adult age, but preteen-looking models. While its not 'real', the fantasy that goes on in their head certainly is.

These meat substitutes you refer to are designed to aid the transition for those who were raised eating meat to vegetarianism. They are also useful in social situations such as barbeques so one does not feel alienated.

I see no problem with them, they are a product produced without death. And so 'psychologically at least' they are not being hypocritical in their moral choices. They are enjoying their food with a clear conscience. Soy is high in protein, low in fat and a healthy choice of food.

Quite frankly, I find it disturbing that you can link this with child porn.

I wouldn't 'link' it with child porn per-se, but I think the point is valid. Philosophically speaking, if you consider eating meat an unacceptable personal/moral issue then surely 'committing the essential elements' of that unacceptable moral choice are almost the same as doing the thing itself.

I can tell you from my experience that the vegetarians I know eat those products not for purposes of inclusion but because they like (and miss) the taste of meat. They just don't want the personal/moral consequences of eating the flesh of an animal. Contrary to the tone of this post - I'm not criticising them for their beliefs I just find it an interesting paradox. In any case, its all personal choice here, so people can do what they like. Clearly.

If you consider that the 'taste' of meat is an integral part of the experience of eating meat, then it becomes hard to separate that desire for 'taste' from the experience itself. Again... philosophically speaking.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Laws are things in the human world, not in nature and they mean squat to non-human animals. L

No laws in nature??

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

These meat substitutes you refer to are designed to aid the transition for those who were raised eating meat to vegetarianism. They are also useful in social situations such as barbeques so one does not feel alienated.

I see no problem with them, they are a product produced without death. And so 'psychologically at least' they are not being hypocritical in their moral choices. They are enjoying their food with a clear conscience. Soy is high in protein, low in fat and a healthy choice of food.

Soy products also suck big time in texture and taste. My ex-wife made me a chicken quesadilla once using a soy based chicken product (instead of chicken) and a soy based cheese product (you guessed it: instead of cheese). As I mentioned, that was my ex-wife. It was ridiculous.

If you want the taste of chicken, eat chicken. If you prefer the taste of beef, eat beef. If you want to eat soy, get used to the nasty taste of it!