Is General Motors Worth Saving?

[Empress of Groovy 373]

Quite simply put, there's a reason why Japanese cars are better.

They are not better. If the Chevy Malibu was called the Toyota Malibu, or the Buick Enclave

was sold as the Honda Enclave, GM wouldn't be teetering on the edge of bankruptcy.

GM cars have won rave reviews from motoring press and are every bit as good as

those of its Japanese rivals.

People believe otherwise only because America haters like you have been repeating

the same lies since the '70s.

I'm not so sure about that--30+ years of maintenance and repair surveys suggest otherwise.

So what you're saying, basically, is that GM will never be able to make a good car.

No matter how good they make it, a 30-year-old survey will tell you otherwise.

Not a 30-year-old survey, longitudinal surveys about reliability repair cost, etc. taken over the last 30 years. The fact remains that as a group, Japanese cars are consistently more reliable and run longer, both in terms of age and mileage, than their GM counterparts. Yes, GM does make some good cars, but their focus has been on trucks and SUVs. GM has never made a decent small car (w/ the possible exceptions of the Pontiac Vibe and the Geo/Chevy Prizm, which are Toyotas). GM should have been onto this beginning in the 70s, when Toyotas, Hondas, and Datsuns started moving on to the small car scene. There's simply no contest. Look at GM's small cars now--the Cobalt and the Aveo? Compare those with the entry-level small cars offered by Toyota, Nissan, and Honda.

GM certainly can make a good car, and they have. My dad had a 1983 Chevy Caprice that went over 300K miles before it croaked. I had a 1987 pimp-daddy Caddy that served me well for a couple of years.

I don't agree that the Japanese makers are just winning the marketing war. In most respects, their vehicles are simply better. I do hope that GM gets it together, but they've been their own worst enemy in many ways.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

For those stuck in this circular argument about American vs. Japanese engineering...

....

Many cars assembled in the United States contain major components, such as engines or transmissions, made in other countries. Some cars made in other countries are sold with American nameplates. And some cars with foreign nameplates are assembled in the United States. Is a car built in England by an American company American or English? Is a car built by a Japanese company in the United States Japanese or American?

National boundaries began to lose meaning. Corporations were becoming citizens of the world, not nations. GM was an American auto maker, but it was also British, German, Iranian, Korean, Mexican, etc. Through stock acquisitions, joint ventures and other mechanisms, auto makers had domiciles and interests in many nations.

The sixth Ford built in 1903 was sold to a Canadian buyer. And in 1904, Ford of Canada was founded in Windsor.

Ford began building cars in England in 1911, Brazil in 1919 and in Germany and Australia in 1925. Ford now assembles cars in Argentina, Ireland, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, the Philippines, Spain, South Africa, Taiwan, Uruguay and Venezuela. It recently acquired the venerable Jaguar in Great Britain.

General Motors was a little slower moving into the international market, but it acquired a Canadian subsidiary in 1918, then took over the Vauxhall company in Great Britain in 1925. (Vauxhall was started in 1903, using as its symbol the Griffin, half-lion, half-eagle. It was named after the suburb of London in which it was located, which was in turn derived from a 12th century mercenary known as Fulk le Breant. Through marriage, he acquired a house on the River Thames, which became Fulk's Hall, later corrupted into Vauxhall. The griffin was Fulk's symbol.)

In 1929, GM acquired the Adam Opel company, one of Germany's oldest auto makers, then bought Holden's in Australia in 1931. Recently, GM startled the British by toying with the idea of buying Rolls-Royce, then opted for Saab of Sweden instead. GM also assembles cars in Europe, Asia and Africa and, in a joint venture with Toyota, it assembles Japanese cars in the United States and markets them under the Geo name.

Chrysler Corp. was forced to sell off its overseas holdings (Rootes Group in Great Britain and Simca in France) during its crisis of survival in 1979-82. Chrysler no longer owns Simca, which is now part of the Peugeot-Citroen group and builds the Talbot car, but its once-ubiquitous Omni/Horizon was in large part a product of Chrysler designers in France. Chrysler has numerous ties with Mitsubishi.

Before it was acquired by Chrysler Corp., American Motors was almost half owned by Renault, in turn owned by the French government, seized during World War II after Louis Renault died in 1944 after he was jailed as a Nazi collaborator. AMC also built the uniquely American Jeep in 19 countries around the world. After Chrysler acquired AMC, France was out and the Jeep became one of Chrysler's best-selling vehicles.

http://www.theautochannel.com/mania/indust...ory/chap16.html

Edited November 13, 2008 by Mister Fancypants

[mawilson 2,133]

I don't agree that the Japanese makers are just winning the marketing war. In most respects, their vehicles are simply better. I do hope that GM gets it together, but they've been their own worst enemy in many ways.

GM can make the best car in the world, but the likes of STFV will never buy it because it's a GM - therefore it must be #######.

Edited November 13, 2008 by mawilson

[spookyturtle 9,466]

GM can make the best car in the world, but the likes of STFV will never buy it because it's a GM - therefore it must be #######.

But California is where its at. The rest of the country isn't hip.

[kaydee457 13]

I do hope that GM gets it together, but they've been their own worst enemy in many ways.

Perhaps, however their mortal enemy are entitlements under Union Contracts, unfavorable work rules that are anti-competitive and frankly anti-business.

The Unions have driven these companies into oblivion and it's reflected in the quality of their products.

Edited November 13, 2008 by kaydee457

[spookyturtle 9,466]

I do hope that GM gets it together, but they've been their own worst enemy in many ways.

Perhaps, however their mortal enemy are entitlements under Union Contracts, unfavorable work rules that are anti-competitive and frankly anti-business.

The Unions have driven these companies into oblivion and it's reflected in the quality of their products.

I think that this will have to change significantly if the US auto industry is going to have any chance of survival. The union is going to have to make some contract consessions or else they won't have to worry. The union will no longer be necessary with no auto industry.

[Empress of Groovy 373]

I don't agree that the Japanese makers are just winning the marketing war. In most respects, their vehicles are simply better. I do hope that GM gets it together, but they've been their own worst enemy in many ways.

GM can make the best car in the world, but the likes of STFV will never buy it because it's a GM - therefore it must be #######.

Well, I can't speak to that. But I do read a lot about cars, and it's a shame that GM is unable (unwilling?) to keep up with what people want. Like, a reliable car that doesn't have major electrical, braking problems, or transmission problems at 100K miles. And a small car that doesn't make you think you're driving a golf cart.

GM does make some nice mid-sized sedans, but they're pricey and tend not to be very good on gas compared with cars in the same class.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I do hope that GM gets it together, but they've been their own worst enemy in many ways.

Perhaps, however their mortal enemy are entitlements under Union Contracts, unfavorable work rules that are anti-competitive and frankly anti-business.

The Unions have driven these companies into oblivion and it's reflected in the quality of their products.

German auto makers are unionized...it doesn't seem to hinder their quality or competitiveness.

[HAL 9000 96]

I don't agree that the Japanese makers are just winning the marketing war. In most respects, their vehicles are simply better. I do hope that GM gets it together, but they've been their own worst enemy in many ways.

GM can make the best car in the world, but the likes of STFV will never buy it because it's a GM - therefore it must be #######.

Well, I can't speak to that. But I do read a lot about cars, and it's a shame that GM is unable (unwilling?) to keep up with what people want. Like, a reliable car that doesn't have major electrical, braking problems, or transmission problems at 100K miles. And a small car that doesn't make you think you're driving a golf cart.

GM does make some nice mid-sized sedans, but they're pricey and tend not to be very good on gas compared with cars in the same class.

EXACTLY. Its about being realistic. Bigger cars have historically mean bigger profits. That's where GM has wanted to play and that's yet another reason they are pointing towards the can.

[Donna A 4]

unions have nothing to do with it. union workers are the lowest paid employees at gm...how are lowest paid ruining the company? people have nothing else in their simple little minds to use for excuses except blaming unions.

[mawilson 2,133]

I do hope that GM gets it together, but they've been their own worst enemy in many ways.

Perhaps, however their mortal enemy are entitlements under Union Contracts, unfavorable work rules that are anti-competitive and frankly anti-business.

The Unions have driven these companies into oblivion and it's reflected in the quality of their products.

German auto makers are unionized...it doesn't seem to hinder their quality or competitiveness.

Sure it does.

VW's quality is shite, and BMW/Mercedes are priced out of reach of the typical car buyer.

[wsr 0]

No, next.

2,500,000 American jobs, Cleo.

I tend to agree. I dislike GM's product but their 'footprint' is too large to allow them to go poof over night.

I wouldn't mind if GM dies a slow death, that would spread the impact out over a long period of time.

Yeah there's a huge amount of jobs here at stake. Our economy will crumble more and more if GM and the other 2 domestic auto companies fail.

Oh and what's funny is the government says they can bail out the banks who got themselves in this mess by qualifying unqualified individuals for loans and they want to try and payoff peoples loans that they couldn't afford in the first place but the reason the republicans don't want to give the auto industry a loan is mismanagement? Doesn't make sense, sounds like it was mismanagement on the banks part as well...Top it all off for the auto industries woes..90% of cars are financed and right now only the highest 8% of credit worthee individuals are receiving loans...not fair for the auto industry who has helped create a great economy in the past 100 years to be backstabbed when they need the governments help.

[kaydee457 13]

I do hope that GM gets it together, but they've been their own worst enemy in many ways.

Perhaps, however their mortal enemy are entitlements under Union Contracts, unfavorable work rules that are anti-competitive and frankly anti-business.

The Unions have driven these companies into oblivion and it's reflected in the quality of their products.

German auto makers are unionized...it doesn't seem to hinder their quality or competitiveness.

So does Japan and Korea......What kind of entitlements do they have compared to the U.S. Automakers? What kind of work rules?

It's not fair to compare what's happening in other countries with what happens here with UAW representation.

Let's focus on the U.S. Auto industry.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

unions have nothing to do with it. union workers are the lowest paid employees at gm...how are lowest paid ruining the company? people have nothing else in their simple little minds to use for excuses except blaming unions.

Union benefits add about $1800 to the price of a car. The foreign companies who build cars here aren't crippled with this.

[Donna A 4]

unions have nothing to do with it. union workers are the lowest paid employees at gm...how are lowest paid ruining the company? people have nothing else in their simple little minds to use for excuses except blaming unions.

Union benefits add about $1800 to the price of a car. The foreign companies who build cars here aren't crippled with this.

and just how much is upper managements benefits adding to the price of a car? $1800 is a small price compared to the powers that be now arent they.