Is General Motors Worth Saving?

[IAMX 3,055]

[

By the way, you might want to consider, in the "link" you gave, that I'm not questioning bailing out Ford, nor suggesting Ford going down would be a good thing. They've actually showed the right kind of response to a shift in ideology about cars. GM had the first cut in this market and they took a sh*t on it. So they don't get my sympathy.

So you want to save Ford and not GM? You remind me of Senator Kerry, always changing your view.

Notice how I haven't really addressed Ford much in this topic? Probably because this topic is about GM, not Ford.

And yes, if the post wasn't clear enough for you, Ford has actually addressed consumer demand for hybrids and alternative fuels. If you've been following along, I've also expressed praise for one of their hybrid SUV's, as well as suggested the likelihood of us getting that over a Lexus RX hybrid.

But I doubt reading is your thing. Well, reading things you don't want to read..

Edited November 14, 2008 by SRVT

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

People will do what they please when given the option.

So... if you could buy a NON-gas-guzzling muscle car. At an affordable price... would you buy it?

Sure. That Tesla Roadster thing is pretty cool, though I hate the idea of having to plug it in to charge.

They are also close to $100K.

How would Hal use it in Chicago? Unfortunately Lithium batteries don't work well in cold weather and downright fail and explode in hot weather.

HAL 9000 has Discovery.

Cast off all lines, Capt HAL!!!

Ah yes... that would be Discovery S (for sail). Discovery the starship has new cold fusion engines.

Working on a smaller version for sailboats and even cars so wankers with inferiority complexes, muscle car freaks, and nerds can all enjoy unlimited motion from whatever point they start to wherever they want to end their journeys.

Discovery is so 1968

[IAMX 3,055]

Dude you hate GM because you are sad about the EV1. Get over it geeezz.

Actually, I don't want to bail out GM for the incompetency in their decision making process. I actually use the "conservative" mindset of not rewarding failure. Funny how conservatives here disagree with me on this.

[HAL 9000 96]

[

By the way, you might want to consider, in the "link" you gave, that I'm not questioning bailing out Ford, nor suggesting Ford going down would be a good thing. They've actually showed the right kind of response to a shift in ideology about cars. GM had the first cut in this market and they took a sh*t on it. So they don't get my sympathy.

So you want to save Ford and not GM? You remind me of Senator Kerry, always changing your view.

Notice how I haven't really addressed Ford much in this topic? Probably because this topic is about GM, not Ford.

And yes, if the post wasn't clear enough for you, Ford has actually addressed consumer demand for hybrids and alternative fuels. If you've been following along, I've also expressed praise for one of their hybrid SUV's, as well as suggested the likelihood of us getting that over a Lexus RX hybrid.

But I doubt reading is your thing. Well, reading things you don't want to read..

Yes, you have.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

[

By the way, you might want to consider, in the "link" you gave, that I'm not questioning bailing out Ford, nor suggesting Ford going down would be a good thing. They've actually showed the right kind of response to a shift in ideology about cars. GM had the first cut in this market and they took a sh*t on it. So they don't get my sympathy.

So you want to save Ford and not GM? You remind me of Senator Kerry, always changing your view.

Notice how I haven't really addressed Ford much in this topic? Probably because this topic is about GM, not Ford.

And yes, if the post wasn't clear enough for you, Ford has actually addressed consumer demand for hybrids and alternative fuels. If you've been following along, I've also expressed praise for one of their hybrid SUV's, as well as suggested the likelihood of us getting that over a Lexus RX hybrid.

But I doubt reading is your thing. Well, reading things you don't want to read..

Why, you won't pay $15,000 more for the Lexus hybrid to get an extra 2mpg? It's a Toyota, so it must be worrth it. It's a good thing that you always keep things on topic.

[HAL 9000 96]

Dude you hate GM because you are sad about the EV1. Get over it geeezz.

Actually, I don't want to bail out GM for the incompetency in their decision making process. I actually use the "conservative" mindset of not rewarding failure. Funny how conservatives here disagree with me on this.

Save GM, scrap its management.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

I gotta go wash my spoon. See ya'll later.

[Heracles 417]

Dude you hate GM because you are sad about the EV1. Get over it geeezz.

Actually, I don't want to bail out GM for the incompetency in their decision making process. I actually use the "conservative" mindset of not rewarding failure. Funny how conservatives here disagree with me on this.

Save GM, scrap its management.

and the UAW

[IAMX 3,055]

Dude you hate GM because you are sad about the EV1. Get over it geeezz.

Actually, I don't want to bail out GM for the incompetency in their decision making process. I actually use the "conservative" mindset of not rewarding failure. Funny how conservatives here disagree with me on this.

Save GM, scrap its management.

Problem is, you know the cost of scrapping the management. While people can find other jobs, namely if Ford gets bailed out, it's them I don't want to see rewarded.

Good to see the discussion take an intelligent turn..

[HAL 9000 96]

Dude you hate GM because you are sad about the EV1. Get over it geeezz.

Actually, I don't want to bail out GM for the incompetency in their decision making process. I actually use the "conservative" mindset of not rewarding failure. Funny how conservatives here disagree with me on this.

Save GM, scrap its management.

and the UAW

UAW's management.

[HAL 9000 96]

Dude you hate GM because you are sad about the EV1. Get over it geeezz.

Actually, I don't want to bail out GM for the incompetency in their decision making process. I actually use the "conservative" mindset of not rewarding failure. Funny how conservatives here disagree with me on this.

Save GM, scrap its management.

Problem is, you know the cost of scrapping the management. While people can find other jobs, namely if Ford gets bailed out, it's them I don't want to see rewarded.

Good to see the discussion take an intelligent turn..

I'd say promote from within from the lower ranks with one vision: make cars that people need, like, and do so as a service to the nation in exchange for corporate leadership and pay. Make profiteering important, but not the sole reason to make a car.

[natty bumppo 297]

SVRT's knowledge of cars was thrown out the window when he stated that a 3spd neon gets 45mpg.

maybe with a 70 mph tailwind.

is this a 3-on-the-tree model?

[NickD 203]

A marketing definition of a well designed vehicle is one that after hitting a certain mileage or time period, whichever comes first, the entire vehicle blasts away into dust, that also makes the EPA happy as they have a strong say on recycling, fresh vehicles off the line are already predetermined to be dismantled and recycled.

If any component is still usable after that predetermined point, it is over designed, and way too much money was spent on those components that could be used to feed the stockholders or the CEO. Those that failed before that point, well that's okay, as long as they failed after the warranty period, hey, we made a couple of bucks.

Vehicles are throwaway items and becoming more so each and every model year. Not much different than that aluminum can you are tossing away after taking a few sips of soda, except the grade of that aluminum in that can is much greater than what you will find in the AC components of even a BMW, Toyota, or Honda that rot away after the short one year warranty on these components, read your fine print. FDA and liability demands a high grade aluminum in a pop can, but no safety requirements in an AC system.

Yet another design factor is the amount of energy required to manufacture an automobile, and basically all fossil fuels at this point. A missing part of the green movement is considering the amount of energy used to add say a hybrid system as opposed to the amount of energy it saves with this technology. But that energy cost is recovered the instant the vehicle is sold, pays to calculate how much extra you are paying for that vehicle as opposed to how much money you are actually saving in fuel cost. Then you have to learn how to drive a hybrid, it only works if you can take your foot off the gas so the motor/generator can convert some of that stopping power to charge a very expensive added weight battery to that vehicle and use about 50% of that recovered energy to get you moving again. Ha, can save a lot more than that if you just drive through stop and red light traffic lights. But may experience a dent or two if not a traffic fine in the process.

Hybrids do permit a smaller engine as the motor portion of the motor/generator in series with the combustion engine gives that extra power when needed. And the generator portion does slowly recharge the battery especially when partial throttle is used going down a hill. Ever wonder why railroad tracks are limited to a 2% grade, you have your answer.

While the EPA downgraded the mileage estimates on the Prius, they sure in the hell didn't test these things on the Dan Ryan where if you don't slam hard on your brakes because some idiot flies in front of you, not recovering any inertia energy that way and you will be doing that over 50 times each mile. No savings in fuel that way, plus hauling that extra generator around and batteries. Should have asked a guy I know that is using Prius's in LV, only averaging around 28 mpg, plus can't carry the load as a larger vehicle, space is eaten up with motors and batteries. Plus the front tires are so thin to save on road traction, a hazard to drive in northern states, and if you hit the pedal a tad to much, will grind up those tires in a hurry. All in all, a very stupid design and concept, but hey, Gore says buy one, you will save the planet. Wonder how much Toyota is paying him?

Did I tell you my old man's Chevy is better than your old man's Ford? Haven't heard that since grade school. That's about the mentality that this thread is leading into. In reality, both cars are #######. Oh, and you better be nice, my daddy is a cop and is going to put you in jail.

[Heracles 417]

Dude you hate GM because you are sad about the EV1. Get over it geeezz.

Actually, I don't want to bail out GM for the incompetency in their decision making process. I actually use the "conservative" mindset of not rewarding failure. Funny how conservatives here disagree with me on this.

Save GM, scrap its management.

and the UAW

UAW's management.

Unions = bankruptcy

This has played out over and over again in most heavily unionized industries. US airlines are a great example.

Edited November 14, 2008 by Aficionado

[IAMX 3,055]

Dude you hate GM because you are sad about the EV1. Get over it geeezz.

Actually, I don't want to bail out GM for the incompetency in their decision making process. I actually use the "conservative" mindset of not rewarding failure. Funny how conservatives here disagree with me on this.

Save GM, scrap its management.

Problem is, you know the cost of scrapping the management. While people can find other jobs, namely if Ford gets bailed out, it's them I don't want to see rewarded.

Good to see the discussion take an intelligent turn..

I'd say promote from within from the lower ranks with one vision: make cars that people need, like, and do so as a service to the nation in exchange for corporate leadership and pay. Make profiteering important, but not the sole reason to make a car.

This all makes sense, and it's how things should work, but if GM gets bailed out do you really think this will happen?

The problem is bailing out GM does not fix any problems beyond "now". It just makes taxpayers have to foot more money at some point in the future. And people wonder why the economy and budget deficit is in the position it's in now?