Is General Motors Worth Saving?

[Ban Hammer 13,349]

Hey BTW, does Toyota have a muscle car that can get 26 mpg?

those two words don't belong in the same sentence.

Indeed. That's like saying "does Hummer have a hybrid that gets over 30MPG?".

I don't think partaking to Aficionado's ilk (only in real life, not on the internet) is Toyota's MO. Some of us simply use cars to drive from A to B, and want to spend the least amount of money getting there, while, in some fashion, not tearing up people's lungs sitting next to them. For others, it's a bit of a competition in a department related to insecurity.

overall, it sounds like you're cheap/broke, can't afford much other than a shoebox on wheels, and suffer from chrome envy.

Sounds like you're way off in left field again.

nah, i believe that's spot on. you're probably peeved that everyone is looking down on you in traffic jams, ain't you?

Strange, because if I were one to have a problem with it, I'd probably be the one IN one of those. Instead, they're wasting money sitting in a traffic jam and I'm just fine. The only one with a problem here is you.

no problem here, i've got a good view. how do you like my aluminum rims from down there?

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Yeah, I suggested that losing GM won't hurt the economy. And you wonder why you're treated like a retard?

The only one that I see here considered a retard is you. You change the subject and don't answer the questions when asked. You must be a douce bag in reality too.

Hey, if you want to actually go back to the argument that's fine with me. Or you can follow ma, charles, and Aficionado's lead. They seem to be quite happy with personal attacks and not arguing the topic at hand. Wonder why..

I did argue the topic at hand. You avoided answering. I gave you the link to show you what I read, You deny the issue. It is trivial in your view.

[wsr 0]

Yeah, as you know, I'm always comparing my degree to everyone else's, or suggesting how I'm gonna kick some ### and buy people a ticket.

You have made numerous references about your intelligence and the stupidity of others.

Ahh, so people can't actually make a stupid suggestion. You're a-ok comparing degrees, but out of line by suggesting someone's argument sucks. Are you Aficionado's "friend" by any chance?

When have I ever made a comparison of degrees? So you are admitting to making stupid suggestions? Like losing GM won't hurt the economy?

Yeah, I suggested that losing GM won't hurt the economy. And you wonder why you're treated like a retard?

Try actually addressing the arguments made rather than making stupid ####### up.

AUTOMOTIVE NEWS EDITORIAL

THE COST OF GM'S DEATH

AUTOMOTIVE NEWS

NOVEMBER 14, 2008 - 12:28 PM ET

If Congress thinks a bailout of General Motors is expensive, it should consider the cost of a GM failure.

Let's be clear. The alternative to government cash for GM is not a dreamy Chapter 11 filing, a reorganization that puts dealers and the UAW in their place, ensuring future success.

No, even if GM could get debtor-in-possession financing to keep the lights on (which it can't), Chapter 11 means a collapse of sales and a spiral into a Chapter 7 liquidation.

GM's 100,000 American jobs will die. Health care for a million Americans will be lost or at risk. Hundreds of GM's 1,300 suppliers will die. Their collapse could take down Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC, perhaps even North American transplants. Dealers in every county of America will close.

The government will face greater unemployment, more Americans without health insurance and greater pension liabilities.

Criticize Detroit 3 executives all you want. But the issue today is not whether GM should have closed Buick years ago, been tougher with the UAW or supported higher fuel economy standards.

In the next two to four months, GM will run out of cash and turn out the lights. Only government money can prevent that. Every other alternative is fantasy.

The $25 billion in loans that Congress approved to partially fund improvements in fuel economy? Irrelevant. Dead automakers do not invest in technology.

The collapse of the global financial system has crushed the American car market, dried up revenues for the Detroit 3 and highlighted their weaknesses.

Each of the Detroit 3 is in crisis. But Ford, which borrowed big two years ago and thus has more cash today, may skip a bailout and the strings attached. Cerberus, which bought Chrysler last year, doesn't deserve money. Government cash might help sell Chrysler to a strategic owner.

Some Detroit critics want their pound of flesh: Throw the bums out and install a government czar. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson won't use any of his $700 billion bank bailout money to help manufacturers. In any case, he'd need a guarantee that a bailout would make Detroit "viable."

Well, nobody -- not even AIG -- is insuring guarantees for viability.

The taxpayer needs protection and an upside. GM's top management may need to go. Government-as-shareholder deserves a big voice. Those details can be worked out.

The Detroit 3 CEOs and UAW President Ron Gettelfinger had better tell two critical congressional hearings next week what sacrifices they are prepared to make.

But the stark fact remains: Absent a bailout, GM dies, and with it much of manufacturing in America. Congress needs to do the right thing -- now.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Yeah, as you know, I'm always comparing my degree to everyone else's, or suggesting how I'm gonna kick some ### and buy people a ticket.

You have made numerous references about your intelligence and the stupidity of others.

Ahh, so people can't actually make a stupid suggestion. You're a-ok comparing degrees, but out of line by suggesting someone's argument sucks. Are you Aficionado's "friend" by any chance?

When have I ever made a comparison of degrees? So you are admitting to making stupid suggestions? Like losing GM won't hurt the economy?

Yeah, I suggested that losing GM won't hurt the economy. And you wonder why you're treated like a retard?

Try actually addressing the arguments made rather than making stupid ####### up.

AUTOMOTIVE NEWS EDITORIAL

THE COST OF GM'S DEATH

AUTOMOTIVE NEWS

NOVEMBER 14, 2008 - 12:28 PM ET

If Congress thinks a bailout of General Motors is expensive, it should consider the cost of a GM failure.

Let's be clear. The alternative to government cash for GM is not a dreamy Chapter 11 filing, a reorganization that puts dealers and the UAW in their place, ensuring future success.

No, even if GM could get debtor-in-possession financing to keep the lights on (which it can't), Chapter 11 means a collapse of sales and a spiral into a Chapter 7 liquidation.

GM's 100,000 American jobs will die. Health care for a million Americans will be lost or at risk. Hundreds of GM's 1,300 suppliers will die. Their collapse could take down Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC, perhaps even North American transplants. Dealers in every county of America will close.

The government will face greater unemployment, more Americans without health insurance and greater pension liabilities.

Criticize Detroit 3 executives all you want. But the issue today is not whether GM should have closed Buick years ago, been tougher with the UAW or supported higher fuel economy standards.

In the next two to four months, GM will run out of cash and turn out the lights. Only government money can prevent that. Every other alternative is fantasy.

The $25 billion in loans that Congress approved to partially fund improvements in fuel economy? Irrelevant. Dead automakers do not invest in technology.

The collapse of the global financial system has crushed the American car market, dried up revenues for the Detroit 3 and highlighted their weaknesses.

Each of the Detroit 3 is in crisis. But Ford, which borrowed big two years ago and thus has more cash today, may skip a bailout and the strings attached. Cerberus, which bought Chrysler last year, doesn't deserve money. Government cash might help sell Chrysler to a strategic owner.

Some Detroit critics want their pound of flesh: Throw the bums out and install a government czar. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson won't use any of his $700 billion bank bailout money to help manufacturers. In any case, he'd need a guarantee that a bailout would make Detroit "viable."

Well, nobody -- not even AIG -- is insuring guarantees for viability.

The taxpayer needs protection and an upside. GM's top management may need to go. Government-as-shareholder deserves a big voice. Those details can be worked out.

The Detroit 3 CEOs and UAW President Ron Gettelfinger had better tell two critical congressional hearings next week what sacrifices they are prepared to make.

But the stark fact remains: Absent a bailout, GM dies, and with it much of manufacturing in America. Congress needs to do the right thing -- now.

Ask Steve, he's the only one in the US who really knows.

[IAMX 3,055]

People will do what they please when given the option.

So... if you could buy a NON-gas-guzzling muscle car. At an affordable price... would you buy it?

Sure. That Tesla Roadster thing is pretty cool, though I hate the idea of having to plug it in to charge.

They are also close to $100K.

How would Hal use it in Chicago? Unfortunately Lithium batteries don't work well in cold weather and downright fail and explode in warm weather.

They've already been tested in California. Guess what, we get over 100 degree weather here too.

If they don't work in this environment, laptops should be exploding left and right.

[Ban Hammer 13,349]

There goes the e-####### again. Are you afraid someone in one of those big bad trucks will look down and see what you are doing while you are driving? Only one hand on he wheel?

at google that's known as "holding a brainstorming meeting"

[HAL 9000 96]

People will do what they please when given the option.

So... if you could buy a NON-gas-guzzling muscle car. At an affordable price... would you buy it?

Sure. That Tesla Roadster thing is pretty cool, though I hate the idea of having to plug it in to charge.

Yeah... it can be a bit of a hassle if the KWHr is expensive... but I do believe reducing KWHr to engine energy usage it is much cheaper than the unit price of gasoline, even at a high octane.

And IF we switch to more ecological sources for our electricity then... the investment becomes much more justifiable and marketable.

And all those autoworkers can be retrained to work cars like these.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

There goes the e-####### again. Are you afraid someone in one of those big bad trucks will look down and see what you are doing while you are driving? Only one hand on he wheel?

at google that's known as "holding a brainstorming meeting"

I'll bet he has a surfboard strapped to the roof of his Prius.

Edited November 14, 2008 by spookyturtle

[HAL 9000 96]

People will do what they please when given the option.

So... if you could buy a NON-gas-guzzling muscle car. At an affordable price... would you buy it?

Sure. That Tesla Roadster thing is pretty cool, though I hate the idea of having to plug it in to charge.

They are also close to $100K.

How would Hal use it in Chicago? Unfortunately Lithium batteries don't work well in cold weather and downright fail and explode in hot weather.

HAL 9000 has Discovery.

People will do what they please when given the option.

So... if you could buy a NON-gas-guzzling muscle car. At an affordable price... would you buy it?

Sure. That Tesla Roadster thing is pretty cool, though I hate the idea of having to plug it in to charge.

They are also close to $100K.

How would Hal use it in Chicago? Unfortunately Lithium batteries don't work well in cold weather and downright fail and explode in warm weather.

They've already been tested in California. Guess what, we get over 100 degree weather here too.

If they don't work in this environment, laptops should be exploding left and right.

Also true. How many cells do the Roadster's batteries hold?

There goes the e-####### again. Are you afraid someone in one of those big bad trucks will look down and see what you are doing while you are driving? Only one hand on he wheel?

at google that's known as "holding a brainstorming meeting"

I'll bet he has a surfboard strapped to the roof of his Prius.

I wish I still had my surfboards.

[*Robert* 2]

People will do what they please when given the option.

So... if you could buy a NON-gas-guzzling muscle car. At an affordable price... would you buy it?

Sure. That Tesla Roadster thing is pretty cool, though I hate the idea of having to plug it in to charge.

They are also close to $100K.

How would Hal use it in Chicago? Unfortunately Lithium batteries don't work well in cold weather and downright fail and explode in hot weather.

HAL 9000 has Discovery.

Cast off all lines, Capt HAL!!!

[IAMX 3,055]

There goes the e-####### again. Are you afraid someone in one of those big bad trucks will look down and see what you are doing while you are driving? Only one hand on he wheel?

at google that's known as "holding a brainstorming meeting"

Boy, if Google is this successful while doing that, you're going to have a tough time ever being successful.

There goes the e-####### again. Are you afraid someone in one of those big bad trucks will look down and see what you are doing while you are driving? Only one hand on he wheel?

at google that's known as "holding a brainstorming meeting"

I'll bet he has a surfboard strapped to the roof of his Prius.

The scary thing is, there are actually people who have this. Most in the Santa Cruz area.

By the way, you might want to consider, in the "link" you gave, that I'm not questioning bailing out Ford, nor suggesting Ford going down would be a good thing. They've actually showed the right kind of response to a shift in ideology about cars. GM had the first cut in this market and they took a sh*t on it. So they don't get my sympathy.

[Heracles 417]

They've already been tested in California. Guess what, we get over 100 degree weather here too.

If they don't work in this environment, laptops should be exploding left and right.

This is not California dude. You don't need to speak for the sake of speaking. You may want to read up on lithium-ion batteries.

How many teslas on the road? What is their price? What is the waiting period? What is their range? What is their discharge rate? Can the 110v grid handle it?

GM had the first cut in this market and they took a sh*t on it. So they don't get my sympathy.

Dude you hate GM because you are sad about the EV1. Get over it geeezz.

Edited November 14, 2008 by Aficionado

[spookyturtle 9,466]

[

By the way, you might want to consider, in the "link" you gave, that I'm not questioning bailing out Ford, nor suggesting Ford going down would be a good thing. They've actually showed the right kind of response to a shift in ideology about cars. GM had the first cut in this market and they took a sh*t on it. So they don't get my sympathy.

So you want to save Ford and not GM? You remind me of Senator Kerry, always changing your view. Ford has had the number one selling vehicle in the US for the past 15+ years, the F series truck. Yeah, they had the idealogical shift waaaaay before GM. Please.

Edited November 14, 2008 by spookyturtle

[HAL 9000 96]

People will do what they please when given the option.

So... if you could buy a NON-gas-guzzling muscle car. At an affordable price... would you buy it?

Sure. That Tesla Roadster thing is pretty cool, though I hate the idea of having to plug it in to charge.

They are also close to $100K.

How would Hal use it in Chicago? Unfortunately Lithium batteries don't work well in cold weather and downright fail and explode in hot weather.

HAL 9000 has Discovery.

Cast off all lines, Capt HAL!!!

Ah yes... that would be Discovery S (for sail). Discovery the starship has new cold fusion engines.

Working on a smaller version for sailboats and even cars so wankers with inferiority complexes, muscle car freaks, and nerds can all enjoy unlimited motion from whatever point they start to wherever they want to end their journeys.

[Cassie 8]

Hey BTW, does Toyota have a muscle car that can get 26 mpg?

those two words don't belong in the same sentence.

Indeed. That's like saying "does Hummer have a hybrid that gets over 30MPG?".

I don't think partaking to Aficionado's ilk (only in real life, not on the internet) is Toyota's MO. Some of us simply use cars to drive from A to B, and want to spend the least amount of money getting there, while, in some fashion, not tearing up people's lungs sitting next to them. For others, it's a bit of a competition in a department related to insecurity.

overall, it sounds like you're cheap/broke, can't afford much other than a shoebox on wheels, and suffer from chrome envy.

Sounds like you're way off in left field again.

nah, i believe that's spot on. you're probably peeved that everyone is looking down on you in traffic jams, ain't you?

Strange, because if I were one to have a problem with it, I'd probably be the one IN one of those. Instead, they're wasting money sitting in a traffic jam and I'm just fine. The only one with a problem here is you.

no problem here, i've got a good view. how do you like my aluminum rims from down there?

I think they're a waste of money and cheesy, but that's just me!

Oh, and an attempt to overcompensate for something.