Do You Believe in an Apocalypse?

[pedroh 21]

catholics are sinners tho arent they

esp the mexican ones

no, we're the real deal.. booze, super-ostentatious churches, bling.. that's how we roll son

and of course, a bunch of little cards of saints and whatnot in our wallets

[chri'stina 190]

On a serious note...the bible says that it's wrong to be drunk. It doesn't say alcohol, etc is forbidden. Jesus drank wine, wine was their common drink-no soda back then. Many Christians believe you should avoid it because either they think it's pure evil, they have had bad experiences with alcohol, they might come from an alcoholic family, don't want to give off a certain image, or don't think it's worth the time to drink it. I don't drink it because I think it tastes nasty and I don't think it's worth drinking, and not worth making people think I might like drinking. People assume way too much. But many Christians drink in moderation and do not get drunk, which there is nothing wrong with according to the bible. But the bible is very clear about getting drunk.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

But the bible is very clear about getting drunk.

pedro, dude - you are fuxxored!

[Gemmie 142]

Oh my.

I'm really shocked and saddened to see that the majority of Christians here who believe in the apocalypse think that the best statement to describe it would be that all Muslims go to hell.

(of course, I realize there weren't many answering the poll, but still...)

What a vicious circle!

I was thinking the same...

[Saddle Bronc 124]

...Muslims are the ONLY people on earth who pray regularly, fast regularly, dress and act modestly, refrain from drinking/drugs/harmful substances, you know, all the stuff that the Bible instructs people to do but somehow that hard stuff falls through the cracks? ....

Incorrect!

Arya-Samaj and Bramho Samaj Hindus do these as well--and actually expel members who fail to.

Also, you want a (non-exhaustive) list of self-claimed Muslims who fail(ed) those?

• Jinnah (ignorant of Koran, consumed bacon each day, accounted for half of Sindh's total alcohol consumption during lifetime), founder of Pakistan
• Yahya Khan, 1969-1971 dictator of Pakistan, notorious as drunkard and adulterer
• Ejaz ul-Haq, erstwhile Pakistan Religious Affairs Minister--wrapped a Merc around a tree in Pindi in 1983 but never charged due to his father (supposedly "super-Islamic" Zia, unindicted warcriminal who misruled Pakistan 1977-1988) blocking charges--revealed in 1985 by G.M. Jatoi to CBC's Barbara Frum
• most of al-Saud chopf##k monarch family--only exception Faisal

[almaty 19]

Oh my.

I'm really shocked and saddened to see that the majority of Christians here who believe in the apocalypse think that the best statement to describe it would be that all Muslims go to hell.

(of course, I realize there weren't many answering the poll, but still...)

What a vicious circle!

I was thinking the same...

allot of folks vj knows..all Muslims are terrorists and going to hell

[himher 634]

Just wanted to open your mind to the fact that hell is open for business for such as Jimmy "the slippery hanky" Swaggart and Oral "I have to raise $10MM for my hospital or god will take me from the earth" Roberts as well as the alter-boy diddling Catholic priests that seem to pop out of the woodwork with eye-raising regularity. Toss terrorists, cruel dictators, and people who use religion for their own personal power or gain right in with them.

...Muslims are the ONLY people on earth who pray regularly, fast regularly, dress and act modestly, refrain from drinking/drugs/harmful substances, you know, all the stuff that the Bible instructs people to do but somehow that hard stuff falls through the cracks? ....

Incorrect!

Arya-Samaj and Bramho Samaj Hindus do these as well--and actually expel members who fail to.

Also, you want a (non-exhaustive) list of self-claimed Muslims who fail(ed) those?

• Jinnah (ignorant of Koran, consumed bacon each day, accounted for half of Sindh's total alcohol consumption during lifetime), founder of Pakistan
• Yahya Khan, 1969-1971 dictator of Pakistan, notorious as drunkard and adulterer
• Ejaz ul-Haq, erstwhile Pakistan Religious Affairs Minister--wrapped a Merc around a tree in Pindi in 1983 but never charged due to his father (supposedly "super-Islamic" Zia, unindicted warcriminal who misruled Pakistan 1977-1988) blocking charges--revealed in 1985 by G.M. Jatoi to CBC's Barbara Frum
• most of al-Saud chopf##k monarch family--only exception Faisal

[Nessa 23]

i believe

I can fly

, I believe

I can touch the sky

[*julez* 124]

I believe that an impending apocalypse is hooey. I'm a recovering catholic.

[Y's_habibitk 2]

...Muslims are the ONLY people on earth who pray regularly, fast regularly, dress and act modestly, refrain from drinking/drugs/harmful substances, you know, all the stuff that the Bible instructs people to do but somehow that hard stuff falls through the cracks? ....

Incorrect!

Arya-Samaj and Bramho Samaj Hindus do these as well--and actually expel members who fail to.

Also, you want a (non-exhaustive) list of self-claimed Muslims who fail(ed) those?

• Jinnah (ignorant of Koran, consumed bacon each day, accounted for half of Sindh's total alcohol consumption during lifetime), founder of Pakistan
• Yahya Khan, 1969-1971 dictator of Pakistan, notorious as drunkard and adulterer
• Ejaz ul-Haq, erstwhile Pakistan Religious Affairs Minister--wrapped a Merc around a tree in Pindi in 1983 but never charged due to his father (supposedly "super-Islamic" Zia, unindicted warcriminal who misruled Pakistan 1977-1988) blocking charges--revealed in 1985 by G.M. Jatoi to CBC's Barbara Frum
• most of al-Saud chopf##k monarch family--only exception Faisal

I think the poster meant PRACTICING muslims. not "give me a wiskey, and a wh*re...."types those are in every religion

[Chica Yeyé 41]

No.

No.

Other.

[Chica Yeyé 41]

catholics are sinners tho arent they

esp the mexican ones

no, we're the real deal.. booze, super-ostentatious churches, bling.. that's how we roll son

and of course, a bunch of little cards of saints and whatnot in our wallets

hermano pedroh is well known to go to see La Virgen de Guadalupe on his knees from Charlottetown to Mexico City; flagellating himself with a seven tail whip.

Since the Cath MoFos excommunicated me, they can #%$^ their apocalyptic selves. I am going wherever Platy is going when the ####### hits the fan.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

This is a bit lengthy, but a good read for anyone interested in knowing a different interpretation of the Book of Revelations than that of Christian Fundamentalists.

Interpretation

It would be alike wearisome and useless to enumerate even the more prominent applications made of the Apocalypse. Racial hatred and religious rancour have at all times found in its vision much suitable and gratifying matter. Such persons as Mohammed, the Pope, Napoleon, etc., have in turn been identified with the beast and the harlot. To the "reformers" particularly the Apocalypse was an inexhaustible quarry where to dig for invectives that they might hurl then against the Roman hierarchy. The seven hills of Rome, the scarlet robes of the cardinals, and the unfortunate abuses of the papal court made the application easy and tempting. Owing to the patient and strenuous research of scholars, the interpretation of theApocalypse has been transferred to a field free from the odium theologicum. But then the meaning of the Seer is determined by the rules of common exegesis. Apart from the resurrection, the millennium, and the plagues preceding the final consummation, they see in his visions references to the leading events of his time. Their method of interpretation may be called historic as compared with the theological and political application of former ages. The key to the mysteries of the book they find in 17:8-14. For thus says the Seer: "Let here the mind that hath understanding give heed".

The beast from the sea that had received plenitude of power from the dragon, or Satan, is the Roman Empire, or rather, Caesar, its supreme representative. The token of the beast with which its servants are marked is the image of the emperor on the coins of the realm. This seems to be the obvious meaning of the passage, that all business transactions, all buying and selling were impossible to them that had not the mark of the beast (Apocalypse 13:17). Against this interpretation it is objected that the Jews at the time of Christ had no scruple in handling money on which the image of Caesar was stamped (Matthew 22:15-22). But it should be borne in mind that the horror of the Jews for the imperial images was principally due to the policy of Caligula. He confiscated several of their synagogues, changing them into heathen temples by placing his statue in them. He even sought to erect an image of himself in the Temple of Jerusalem (Josephus, Ant., XVIII, viii, 2).

The seven heads of the beast are seven emperors. Five of them the Seer says are fallen. They are Augustus Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero. The year of Nero's death is A.D. 68. The Seer goes on to say "One is", namely Vespasian, A.D. 70-79. He is the sixth emperor. The seventh, we are told by the Seer, "is not yet come. But when he comes his reign will be short". Titus is meant, who reigned but two years (79-81). The eighth emperor is Domitian (81-96). Of him the Seer has something very peculiar to say. He is identified with the beast. He is described as the one that "was and is not and shall come up out of the bottomless pit" (17:8). In verse 11 it is added: "And the beast which was and is not: the same also is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into destruction".

All this sounds like oracular language. But the clue to its solution is furnished by a popular belief largely spread at the time. The death of Nero had been witnessed by few. Chiefly in the East a notion had taken hold of the mind of the people that Nero was still alive. Gentiles, Jews, and Christians were under the illusion that he was hiding himself, and as was commonly thought, he had gone over to the Parthians, the most troublesome foes of the empire. From there they expected him to return at the head of a mighty army to avenge himself on his enemies. The existence of this fanciful belief is a well-attested historic fact. Tacitus speaks of it: "Achaia atque Asia falso exterrit velut Nero adventaret, vario super ejus exitu rumore eoque pluribus vivere eum fingentibus credentibusque" (Hist., II, 8). So also Dio Chrysostomus: kai nyn (about A.D. 100) eti pantes epithymousi zen oi de pleistoi kai oiontai (Orat., 21, 10; cf. Suetonius, "Vit. Caes."; s.v. NERO and the SIBYLINE ORACLES). Thus the contemporaries of the Seer believed Nero to be alive and expected his return. The Seer either shared their belief or utilized it for his own purpose.

Nero had made a name for himself by his cruelty and licentiousness. The Christians in particular had reason to dread him. Under him the first persecution took place. The second occurred under Domitian. But unlike the previous one, it was not confined to Italy, but spread throughout the provinces. Many Christians were put to death, many were banished (Eusebius, Church History III.17-19). In this way the Seer was led to regard Domitian as a second Nero, "Nero redivivus". Hence he described him as "the one that was, that is not, and that is to return". Hence also he counts him as the eighth and at the same time makes him one of the preceding seven, viz. the fifth, Nero. The identification of the two emperors suggested itself all the more readily since even pagan authors called Domitian a second Nero (calvus Nero, Juvenal. IV, 38). The popular belief concerning Nero's death and return seems to be referred to also in the passage (13:3): "And I saw one of its heads as it were slain to death: and its death's wound was healed".

The ten horns are commonly explained as the vassal rulers under the supremacy of Rome. They are described as kings (basileis), here to be taken in a wider sense, that they are not real kings, but received power to rule with the beast. Their power, moreover, is but for one hour, signifying its short duration and instability (17:17). The Seer has marked the beast with the number 666. His purpose was that by this number people may know it. He that has understanding, let him count the number of the beast. For it is the number of a man: and his number is six hundred and sixty-six. A human number, i.e. intelligible by the common rules of investigation. We have here an instance of Jewish gematria. Its object is to conceal a name by substituting for it a cipher of equal numerical value to the letters composing it. For a long time interpreters tried to decipher the number 666 by means of the Greek alphabet, e.g. Irenæus, Against Heresies V.33. Their efforts have yielded no satisfactory result. Better success has been obtained by using the Hebrew alphabet. Many scholars have come to the conclusion that Nero is meant. For when the name "Nero Caesar" is spelled with Hebrew letters, it yields the cipher 666.

The second beast, that from the land, the pseudoprophet whose office was to assist the beast from the sea, probably signifies the work of seduction carried on by apostate Christians. They endeavoured to make their fellow Christians adopt the heathen practices and submit themselves to the cultus of the Caesar. They are not unlikely the Nicolaitans of the seven Epistles. For they are there compared to Balaam and Jezabel seducing the Israelites to idolatry and fornication. The woman in travail is a personification of the synagogue or the church. Her first-born is Christ, her other seed is the community of the faithful.

In this interpretation, of which we have given a summary, there are two difficulties:

• In the enumeration of the emperors three are passed over, viz. Galba, Otho, and Vitellius. But this omission may be explained by the shortness of their reigns. Each one of the three reigned but a few months.
• Tradition assigns the Apocalypse to the reign of Domitian. But according to the computation given above, the Seer himself assigns his work to the reign of Vespasian. For if this computation be correct, Vespasian is the emperor whom he designates as "the one that is". To this objection, however, it may be answered that it was the custom of apocalyptic writers, e.g., of Daniel, Enoch, and the Sibylline books, to cast their visions into the form of prophecies and give them the appearance of being the work of an earlier date. No literary fraud was thereby intended. It was merely a peculiar style of writing adopted as suiting their subject. The Seer of the Apocalypse follows this practice. Though actually banished to Patmos in the reign of Domitian, after the destruction of Jerusalem, he wrote as if he had been there and seen his visions in the reign of Vespasian when the temple perhaps yet existed. Cf. 2:1-2.

We cannot conclude without mentioning the theory advanced by the German scholar Vischer. He holds the Apocalypse to have been originally a purely Jewish composition, and to have been changed into a Christian work by the insertion of those sections that deal with Christian subjects. From a doctrinal point of view, we think, it cannot be objected to. There are other instances where inspired writers have availed themselves of non-canonical literature. Intrinsically considered it is not improbable. The Apocalypse abounds in passages which bear no specific Christian character but, on the contrary, show a decidedly Jewish complexion. Yet on the whole the theory is but a conjecture. (See also APOCRYPHA)

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01594b.htm

[sereia 0]

...Muslims are the ONLY people on earth who pray regularly, fast regularly, dress and act modestly, refrain from drinking/drugs/harmful substances, you know, all the stuff that the Bible instructs people to do but somehow that hard stuff falls through the cracks? ....

Incorrect!

Arya-Samaj and Bramho Samaj Hindus do these as well--and actually expel members who fail to.

Also, you want a (non-exhaustive) list of self-claimed Muslims who fail(ed) those?

• Jinnah (ignorant of Koran, consumed bacon each day, accounted for half of Sindh's total alcohol consumption during lifetime), founder of Pakistan
• Yahya Khan, 1969-1971 dictator of Pakistan, notorious as drunkard and adulterer
• Ejaz ul-Haq, erstwhile Pakistan Religious Affairs Minister--wrapped a Merc around a tree in Pindi in 1983 but never charged due to his father (supposedly "super-Islamic" Zia, unindicted warcriminal who misruled Pakistan 1977-1988) blocking charges--revealed in 1985 by G.M. Jatoi to CBC's Barbara Frum
• most of al-Saud chopf##k monarch family--only exception Faisal

...Muslims are the ONLY people on earth who pray regularly, fast regularly, dress and act modestly, refrain from drinking/drugs/harmful substances, you know, all the stuff that the Bible instructs people to do but somehow that hard stuff falls through the cracks? ....

Incorrect!

Arya-Samaj and Bramho Samaj Hindus do these as well--and actually expel members who fail to.

Also, you want a (non-exhaustive) list of self-claimed Muslims who fail(ed) those?

• Jinnah (ignorant of Koran, consumed bacon each day, accounted for half of Sindh's total alcohol consumption during lifetime), founder of Pakistan
• Yahya Khan, 1969-1971 dictator of Pakistan, notorious as drunkard and adulterer
• Ejaz ul-Haq, erstwhile Pakistan Religious Affairs Minister--wrapped a Merc around a tree in Pindi in 1983 but never charged due to his father (supposedly "super-Islamic" Zia, unindicted warcriminal who misruled Pakistan 1977-1988) blocking charges--revealed in 1985 by G.M. Jatoi to CBC's Barbara Frum
• most of al-Saud chopf##k monarch family--only exception Faisal

I think the poster meant PRACTICING muslims. not "give me a wiskey, and a wh*re...."types those are in every religion

Muslims are the ONLY ones? Give me a break. What about PRACTICING Orthodox Jews? Or Mormons. Or, or, or, or???

Edited November 12, 2008 by sereia

[himher 634]

You know, you might be right. Then put non-PRACTICING jews, christians, mormons, or..or..or on the "hell list" with the lukewarm, money-loving, fund-raising bible thumpers from today's "christian" churches. Add, as I said earlier, Jimmy "the slippery hanky" Swaggart and Oral "I have to raise $10MM for my hospital or god will take me from the earth" Roberts as well as alter-boy diddling Catholic priests, terrorists, cruel dictators, and people who use religion for their own personal power or gain.

Why list (1) specific religion unless the purpose is to incite religious bigotry against one group?

...Muslims are the ONLY people on earth who pray regularly, fast regularly, dress and act modestly, refrain from drinking/drugs/harmful substances, you know, all the stuff that the Bible instructs people to do but somehow that hard stuff falls through the cracks? ....

Incorrect!

Arya-Samaj and Bramho Samaj Hindus do these as well--and actually expel members who fail to.

Also, you want a (non-exhaustive) list of self-claimed Muslims who fail(ed) those?

• Jinnah (ignorant of Koran, consumed bacon each day, accounted for half of Sindh's total alcohol consumption during lifetime), founder of Pakistan
• Yahya Khan, 1969-1971 dictator of Pakistan, notorious as drunkard and adulterer
• Ejaz ul-Haq, erstwhile Pakistan Religious Affairs Minister--wrapped a Merc around a tree in Pindi in 1983 but never charged due to his father (supposedly "super-Islamic" Zia, unindicted warcriminal who misruled Pakistan 1977-1988) blocking charges--revealed in 1985 by G.M. Jatoi to CBC's Barbara Frum
• most of al-Saud chopf##k monarch family--only exception Faisal

...Muslims are the ONLY people on earth who pray regularly, fast regularly, dress and act modestly, refrain from drinking/drugs/harmful substances, you know, all the stuff that the Bible instructs people to do but somehow that hard stuff falls through the cracks? ....

Incorrect!

Arya-Samaj and Bramho Samaj Hindus do these as well--and actually expel members who fail to.

Also, you want a (non-exhaustive) list of self-claimed Muslims who fail(ed) those?

• Jinnah (ignorant of Koran, consumed bacon each day, accounted for half of Sindh's total alcohol consumption during lifetime), founder of Pakistan
• Yahya Khan, 1969-1971 dictator of Pakistan, notorious as drunkard and adulterer
• Ejaz ul-Haq, erstwhile Pakistan Religious Affairs Minister--wrapped a Merc around a tree in Pindi in 1983 but never charged due to his father (supposedly "super-Islamic" Zia, unindicted warcriminal who misruled Pakistan 1977-1988) blocking charges--revealed in 1985 by G.M. Jatoi to CBC's Barbara Frum
• most of al-Saud chopf##k monarch family--only exception Faisal

I think the poster meant PRACTICING muslims. not "give me a wiskey, and a wh*re...."types those are in every religion

Muslims are the ONLY ones? Give me a break. What about PRACTICING Orthodox Jews? Or Mormons. Or, or, or, or???