Moving to Russia

[rocks 494]

you were rude with your first comment in this thread. you have continued to be condescending and rude. does being offensive get your point across better? perhaps upsetting people makes you feel good about yourself?

My bad, I should indeed have died multiple times of that lack of medication.

Why do you assume that disagreeing with you makes me rude and offensive?

i don't assume. your comments are rude and offensive. as i said, i hope upsetting people makes you feel good.

[Blues Fairy 0]

You guys presume too much about my information (or lack thereof) about other countries of the world, including those who have universal healthcare. I wouldn't be arguing here about socialism if my knowledge of its effects were limited to Russia only. So don't patronize.

I'm trying to find any logical argument to your cause beyond either hating to share a hospital with illegal immigrants, paying taxes, or hating anything government run. I live in a pretty pink bubble so I guess my Congress = appropriates funds and people = vote for Congress members as a check must be out of whack since in Russia it doesn't work very well.

If you don't see the logic of my argument it's definitely not my fault. To simplify: people who don't pay something and get it for free make this something more expensive for other people who do pay. Regardless of their color or legal status. So my argument is, free (re)distribution should not be driven above an absolutely necessary minimum. Makes sense?

[Marilyn. 340]

Canada has free health care but it isn't really free...

it gets paid for by people's taxes and also depending on the amount of money you make you pay a certain amount a month...

[rocks 494]

Canada has free health care but it isn't really free...

it gets paid for by people's taxes and also depending on the amount of money you make you pay a certain amount a month...

that's the same in the uk. although it isn't perfect, people who are at risk of dying are usually able to receive the care they need. as a result of this, there are still rich people in canada, right?

[Blues Fairy 0]

i don't assume. your comments are rude and offensive. as i said, i hope upsetting people makes you feel good.

Not sure about all people, but those who do get seriously upset over my comments in this thread definitely don't belong to a category whose upset would upset me very much.

[Marilyn. 340]

Canada has free health care but it isn't really free...

it gets paid for by people's taxes and also depending on the amount of money you make you pay a certain amount a month...

that's the same in the uk. although it isn't perfect, people who are at risk of dying are usually able to receive the care they need. as a result of this, there are still rich people in canada, right?

here in the US we are still paying off hospital bills from over a year ago and we had good health insurance .. we only have to pay 10 percent or so of the bill... but that adds up..

and then there is the hassle of having to keep calling the insurance company because the doctors kept overcharging us

Edited November 9, 2008 by *Marilyn*

[IAMX 3,055]

You guys presume too much about my information (or lack thereof) about other countries of the world, including those who have universal healthcare. I wouldn't be arguing here about socialism if my knowledge of its effects were limited to Russia only. So don't patronize.

I'm trying to find any logical argument to your cause beyond either hating to share a hospital with illegal immigrants, paying taxes, or hating anything government run. I live in a pretty pink bubble so I guess my Congress = appropriates funds and people = vote for Congress members as a check must be out of whack since in Russia it doesn't work very well.

If you don't see the logic of my argument it's definitely not my fault. To simplify: people who don't pay something and get it for free make this something more expensive for other people who do pay. Regardless of their color or legal status. So my argument is, free (re)distribution should not be driven above an absolutely necessary minimum. Makes sense?

If I don't see the logic in your argument that's because there is none. Logic is objective, remember? Russia is not the United States, remember? The argument that "I don't want to pay for illegals" is not objective. It's your own opinion.

So lets get back to things that are objective. Is it not true that:

1) Congress would allocate funds to be used for the DHHS annual budget?

2) Congress has oversight on how they fund things all the way down to the salary of doctors?

3) People exercise their oversight of Congress by voting them in or out?

Now, since we know government already misuses funds, and here two of our three branches are directly selected by the people (and the third branch, as well as executive cabinet, having other hoops to go through), the question is, why bother with ANY service? Why bother with a DOD? Why bother with a DOJ? Why bother with all of the other departments which require taxes? They all are vulnerable to fiscal irresponsibility. However, secretaries of such cabinets are selected by Presidents, with the Senate advise and consent, and both Senators and Presidents are voted on by the people. So in reality these problems that occur, if ongoing, are directly representative of the people's willingness to hold officials accountable, not the system itself.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Canada has free health care but it isn't really free...

it gets paid for by people's taxes and also depending on the amount of money you make you pay a certain amount a month...

that's the same in the uk. although it isn't perfect, people who are at risk of dying are usually able to receive the care they need. as a result of this, there are still rich people in canada, right?

I think the suggestion was that people who don't pay taxes (i.e. immigrants, the unemployed and foreign visitors) get it for free. This is and isn't true - I know that in the UK you can get free A&E care if you're on holiday there and you have an accident, but I don't think you'll be able to go out there for your triple bypass surgery unless you literally keel over on the pavement.

Even I (a UK citizen) am excluded from that - as the rules say that you have to be "ordinarily resident" in the UK. Though I've no idea how they enforce that practically.

[rocks 494]

Canada has free health care but it isn't really free...

it gets paid for by people's taxes and also depending on the amount of money you make you pay a certain amount a month...

that's the same in the uk. although it isn't perfect, people who are at risk of dying are usually able to receive the care they need. as a result of this, there are still rich people in canada, right?

here in the US we are still paying off hospital bills from over a year ago and we had good health insurance .. we only have to pay 10 percent or so of the bill... but that adds up..

and then there is the hassle of having to keep calling the insurance company because the doctors kept overcharging us

that sucks. overcharged by a doctor.

i fail to see how people think that paying for universal healthcare is suddenly going to mean they won't be able to afford to eat. it really is childish and very unrealistic.

[Danno 1,228]

I don't understand how people can compare Obama to Castro, Chávez or even how the Soviet Union was back in the day. Raising taxes to well to do families does not even come close to being restricted on how many rolls of toilet paper you get per family, how many bags of rice, toothpaste and not even being able to buy cell phone service. It ridiculous. If that had been the case, millions of people wouldn't have voted for him.

Diana

It's true.

If that were the case the whole world wouldn't have cheered this country on last Tuesday.

It is hardly a real meaningful mandate from the people. When you confiscate assets of 5% of the population through higher taxation and redistribute it to 40% of the population that pays no taxes at all...that is mob metality at work. Let's see how well that joke would play if 60% of the population had their taxes raised to be redistribited to the same 40%. Would you have voted for that? I doubt it. Better to screw someone else...right? Of course.

1.) There's a huge difference between the taxation of earnings and seizing assets. President-elect Obama is proposing to set the scale back to where it was during the Clinton era. You remember the Clinton era right? Seems things were pretty good back then.

2.) The majority of that 40% of the population are paying taxes. Some aren't paying federal taxes because they fall below the poverty level. I'm sure you know that.

How can we pay back that tremendous deficit without raising taxes....?

I mean - if you run up huge credit card debts to fund a lifestyle that is beyond your means its a given that you're going to have to make sacrifices later on in order to pay it back.

Now I know you are smarter than that.

When we have economic growth and expansion, the monies coming into the Govt soon out pace debt...

or it would if we would quit thinking up new ways to "up" our debt to income ratio.

When one looks at a graph which shows the national debt and how much it has grown, it looks scary, but what this chart seldom shows is the growth of the economy in relation to it.

It would be like comparing the debt of an average 22 yr old collage student to his debt 25 years later as a doctor, sure if you just look at the "debt" number it looks crazy, but his income has gone up as well.

NOw we have a major downturn in the economy and a "shrinking" source of income for the Gov't.... so we really start going "in the hole" but when the economy starts booming, and expanding, it would be very possible to pay it off, ...IF we did not keep adding new programs.... but we just cant stop.... Bush had his (no child left behind, Prescription drugs for seniors) and Obama has countless ones to implement as well.

[Blues Fairy 0]

If I don't see the logic in your argument that's because there is none. Logic is objective, remember? Russia is not the United States, remember? The argument that "I don't want to pay for illegals" is not objective. It's your own opinion.

So in reality these problems that occur, if ongoing, are directly representative of the people's willingness to hold officials accountable, not the system itself.

And how do you think Russia has grown to be so entirely "objectively" different from the U.S.? Don't you think 70 years of nationalized everything had nothing to do with it?

BTW, I really don't want to pay for illegals, be it my own opinion or objective reality. But what's wrong with that?

[IAMX 3,055]

Canada has free health care but it isn't really free...

it gets paid for by people's taxes and also depending on the amount of money you make you pay a certain amount a month...

that's the same in the uk. although it isn't perfect, people who are at risk of dying are usually able to receive the care they need. as a result of this, there are still rich people in canada, right?

I think the suggestion was that people who don't pay taxes (i.e. immigrants, the unemployed and foreign visitors) get it for free. This is and isn't true - I know that in the UK you can get free A&E care if you're on holiday there and you have an accident, but I don't think you'll be able to go out there for your triple bypass surgery unless you literally keel over on the pavement.

Even I (a UK citizen) am excluded from that - as the rules say that you have to be "ordinarily resident" in the UK. Though I've no idea how they enforce that practically.

It would be simple. If you're here legally, you get treatment. If you aren't, you get deported to your country so they can worry about giving you appropriate treatment. Sounds cold, but I'm not at the behest of foreigners dictating how things go here.

[IAMX 3,055]

If I don't see the logic in your argument that's because there is none. Logic is objective, remember? Russia is not the United States, remember? The argument that "I don't want to pay for illegals" is not objective. It's your own opinion.

So in reality these problems that occur, if ongoing, are directly representative of the people's willingness to hold officials accountable, not the system itself.

And how do you think Russia has grown to be so entirely "objectively" different from the U.S.? Don't you think 70 years of nationalized everything had nothing to do with it?

BTW, I really don't want to pay for illegals, be it my own opinion or objective reality. But what's wrong with that?

Nothing is wrong with that, however, you have no leg to stand on with your argument. This is not Russia. Two different governments, two different government systems, two different collective mindsets.

Basically what I'm suggesting is whatever happened in Russia is Russia's problem, not the U.S. We've already shown there's corruption and shady people in our own government. But this has nothing to do with healthcare and keeping a healthy working class.

You should have stuck with the illegals, as if you had actually come up with a reasonable argument, it couldn't be debated.

Edited November 9, 2008 by SRVT

[Marilyn. 340]

Canada has free health care but it isn't really free...

it gets paid for by people's taxes and also depending on the amount of money you make you pay a certain amount a month...

that's the same in the uk. although it isn't perfect, people who are at risk of dying are usually able to receive the care they need. as a result of this, there are still rich people in canada, right?

here in the US we are still paying off hospital bills from over a year ago and we had good health insurance .. we only have to pay 10 percent or so of the bill... but that adds up..

and then there is the hassle of having to keep calling the insurance company because the doctors kept overcharging us

that sucks. overcharged by a doctor.

i fail to see how people think that paying for universal healthcare is suddenly going to mean they won't be able to afford to eat. it really is childish and very unrealistic.

yeah, the doctor's would get a discounted rate or something but a few of them tried to charge us the difference between the discounted rate and what the insurance paid... ..... it was such a pain in the neck...

[Blues Fairy 0]

And how do you think Russia has grown to be so entirely "objectively" different from the U.S.? Don't you think 70 years of nationalized everything had nothing to do with it?

you have no leg to stand on with your argument. This is not Russia. Two different governments, two different government systems, two different collective mindsets.

Basically what I'm suggesting is whatever happened in Russia is Russia's problem, not the U.S. We've already shown there's corruption and shady people in our own government. But this has nothing to do with healthcare and keeping a healthy working class.

Amazing how people can be in denial of evident facts. Dream on, dream on. Sure, US is entirely different and in no danger or being corrupted by a socialist system.