Dating Website

[Turboguy 6]

I met my wife on elenasmodels.com so I have faith that there are real women out there. But there are a lot of scammers also. I'd recommend he get her phone number and contact her using Skype (www.skype.com). In my experience it was a much better and cheaper connection than normal telephone, calling card, etc. I'd start with that...talk to her on the phone. At least then he can be sure she is at least a real female. Then, I'd book a trip to meet in person...that's the only way he can really be sure. Good luck!

I also met my wife on Elenas and yes there are some scammers but most of the women are real and since you get the contact info and write directly there is no "per letter fee" which is where most of the scam agencies make thier money.

I think making a trip to meet this girl would be very risky. I doubt she knows he is alive.

Jim's list is ok but he does have his biases. Donate a little money to his site and you get a much better review. All in all it is ok though and much better than nothing.

[Brad and Vika 129]

I read somewhere that there are photographers in some FSU cities that do noting but take pictures of women for dating sites. The girls think they are auditioning for a model agency, but the pics wind up on these point-and-click sites, with profiles written without the model's knowledge. Proceed with caution! It seems to me that any woman on a legitimate intro site would be eager to make personal contact independent of the agency.

[Thomas-n-Elena 0]

I also met my wife on Elena's models and strangely her name is Elena (no discount applied). I only met her because of an email I received from another dating website here in the US that seemed suspicious. If your friend/coworker or anyone is interested in meeting people via the internet approach all with a skeptics eye. Its not just russians ripping americans off its americans doing it too. The internet guarantees some anonymity which allows the scammers to work their magic. Be careful, be wary and go with recommended sites.

[Danno 1,228]

Dang... this thread is sounding like a commercial for Elenasmodels.com or is it .RU?

If they are selling contact info, that would seem like the way to go rather than get on the "pay per-use" circle.

[Thomas-n-Elena 0]

Its not so much an advertisement but and affirmation. go with what works and what others say is legit. I dont think there are a bunch of us all in a conspiracy to get someone ripped off.

[slim 1,525]

Did anyone ever use AFA?

I watched the MTV special they did a while back where some dude down in Florida flew over there and went to a few of the "socials" they had. Dude obviously had no idea what he was getting himself into because he got absolutely nowhere with the ladies. And that's pretty bad considering you choose the ones you want before you get there. Plus there are like 100 other girls there as well.

I thought it would be like shooting fish in a barrel (and so did this guy) but he got absolutely nowhere with the ladies. At one point he even "got in trouble" because he touched one of the girls on the thigh. He set up a date or two through his translator but that didn't amount to much and he ended up catching more feelings for the translator than any of the girls he met.

Anyway, he came home all dejected but vowed to "try again" until he found a suitable mate. I'm wondering how many trips over there he made before he got clued in on the Spearmint Rhino and Night Flight clubs.... at least Cam figured it out on his first trip. Go Cam! Where's Cam been lately?

[Turboguy 6]

Did anyone ever use AFA?

Actually I met my first fiancee through AFA but not at one of their socials. I did make three trips that were European Connections socials and very similar to the ones AFA holds. EC has stopped doing socials but AFA still does them but not as many or with as many men as before.

I would recommend anyone to avoid the AFA type social. The biggest problem is the men are a little new to the scene and nieve. They invite women in off the street and the prodaters and scammers did not take too long to figure out they are going to a room full of suckers that don't know much and it is easy to give them a little encouragement and get them to open up thier wallets. I am still friends with some of the guys from my EC tours. All came back thinking they had found thier woman and none worked out. One of my friends still does that route. He did about 5 of the EC socials and has now done at least a half dozen of the AFA socials and is still looking.

That friend is a bit nieve to be kind. He is a really nice guy. One of the things I remember him telling me was that the girl he really liked was Katya who he met on an early trip. He says Katya would like to marry him but does not want to leave Russia and her family. He added they may never end up together but they will always stay friends. Then he added to that. At least I hope we will stay friends if I ever quit sending her money.

I don't think too many hear are in the searching stage but there is one tour type of thing that is pretty good. I think the advantage to a tour is if someone has never traveled going with a group makes it easier and it can be a lot of fun going with a group of guys. If anyone wants to go the tour route Jack Bragg's www.FirstDream.com is a good one that can have results. He operates very differently then the big agencies.

There are a lot of rip off agencies out there and I would agree with the thought to avoid any where you pay per letter and go for ones you buy addresses.

[mox 298]

I think the "shooting fish in a barrel" thing is a myth, or at least severely outdated. Maybe back in the days after the SU collapse, but I doubt you'll get very far pulling the macho bs these days. You have to project confidence, for sure (but not pompousness, as Ewok learned when Charles! smacked him down!), but arrogance is pretty much a turn-off world-wide. (Thank you Mr. Bush!). Oh and pie.

Let's see, personal attacks, political attacks, and pie. That about covers it for me.

[Brad and Vika 129]

I think the "shooting fish in a barrel" thing is a myth, or at least severely outdated. Maybe back in the days after the SU collapse, but I doubt you'll get very far pulling the macho bs these days. You have to project confidence, for sure (but not pompousness, as Ewok learned when Charles! smacked him down!), but arrogance is pretty much a turn-off world-wide. (Thank you Mr. Bush!). Oh and pie.

Let's see, personal attacks, political attacks, and pie. That about covers it for me.

I agree with Mox that "fish in a barrel" is just fantasy marketing. Nothing wrong with using an agency though, as far as I can tell, if you are aware of what they really do. I know some couples who met that way and seem very happy. Personally I couldn't get comfortable with the idea of socials, but each to their own.

[PlatyPius 5]

what's to say it's really a girl he's talking to?

How do you think I'm getting the money to buy cool Xmas gifts for Mags?

[slim 1,525]

I think the "shooting fish in a barrel" thing is a myth, or at least severely outdated. Maybe back in the days after the SU collapse, but I doubt you'll get very far pulling the macho bs these days. You have to project confidence, for sure (but not pompousness, as Ewok learned when Charles! smacked him down!), but arrogance is pretty much a turn-off world-wide. (Thank you Mr. Bush!). Oh and pie.

Let's see, personal attacks, political attacks, and pie. That about covers it for me.

Where's the new BFF?

[NavarreMan 10]

Dang... this thread is sounding like a commercial for Elenasmodels.com or is it .RU?

Let's see if I can put a stop to that...

The first thing you need to understand is that Jim has closes ties to Elena's Agency, perhaps the site may even be maintained by Elena's. This is only speculation as I cannot find proof at this time but I am willing to admit that.

For those of you who have any questions about the validity of JimsLists.com I offer the following collections of e-mails between myself, Jim and Yuriy Gorbov the owner/operator of V&V Agency, a small, 1 man operation in Taganrog, Russia. The first part of this is the posting on JimsLists.com. As you read it, note the tone that it takes: first he says “it is a long time coming”, then claims the agency is a mystery and states a reason that you will soon see is a figment of his imagination. He then cannot remember why he removed V&V from his site and claims there is a wealth of info on Google about them.

Most of what I was able to find in a Google search was what was on Jim’s site. Suddenly, at the end of his posting about V&V he remembers that it was all about a letter received from a girl on Elena’s Models who informed an inquisitive patron that she was contracted with V&V. If this is the case then why was she on Elena’s Models to begin with? (Remember that this letter was likely translated by Elena’s employees). What I found really interesting about Jim is his inability to rationally deal with facts. When presented with proof that he was fabricating his story he simply turns on the God

switch and says it’s his web site and every one else can go to hell.

Something certainly does smell fishy!

I have separated the e-mails with ***** for clarity and censored some of the contact information for privacy reasons, other than that this is how it went down. Sit back and enjoy the read…

From Jim's Website

Your Russian, Latin & Asian Marriage Agency Checklist - By THE Leader in Anti-Scam - Jim

Home | Gold List | White List | Grey List | Black List | No List | Refused List | Anti-Scam | Contact Jim

Why is "Valentin & Valentina - V & V" (v-and-v.com) on my Grey List? This is a long time coming. This agency is a mystery. I once had them on my list because they were apparently kicked out of the Angelika Network for fishy behaviour. I cannot, for the life of me, remember why I removed them.

There should be a lot of info for you to find on google.

But, because of the past, and the letter below, V & V is an agency that you should research before using. I got a report from a guy that he got this letter from a girl who he had written to at Elena's Models. I have not heard from Elena if this agency is on her known agency list. Until I do, they will sit here. Here is the letter.

Dear ****,

I am very sorry, but there is only ONE way to communicate with me – through V&V agency. I have decided to join the agency "Valentin-and-Valentina " because I know about the excellent results of their work. Many women are happily married and live abroad with their husbands. Some of these women I know personally. I did sign a CONTRACT with V&V agency. I am an honest girl, so...

Best regards,

Masha

As a rule, when you get a letter like this, it is nad news. Any girl that is advertising an agency, has a reason to do so. Why would a girl care about which agency you (or she) use? Usually, it is because they have an interest in the agency. The contract part? BULLSHIT!!!!

Girls are free to deal with any agency they want, and if they are being held hostage by an agency, that is a HUGE reason for you to avoid the agency and for me to blacklist them. Be careful using this agency. Let me know if you have info on them.

*****

From: bill@***.com

To: jim@agencyscams.com

Subject: Scam List - V&V Agency

Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 13:53:02 -0500

Jim,

My name is Bill Morgan and I am a resident of Florida, USA. A friend of mine recently informed me that another friend of mine, the man responsible for my wife and I meeting, was on your "list" @ http://agencyscams.com/Why/v-and-v.html. This concerns me greatly because I have grown to know and trust this man and can tell you with the utmost certainty that he is a man of honor and integrity. The reality of it is that he went out of his way, without compensation, to help my wife and myself with our "long-distance" relationship and subsequent immigration process. I will certainly admit that he has aspirations of being a capitalist. What Russian with new-found freedoms does not? But he is honest and I will stand by him to the end and he has my highest recommendations for his marriage agency services. Just so you know he is a contractor for Eleview International. I do not really know how all this upper level stuff works but my wife and I met on-line through rBrides.com and as it turns out she was there because Yuriy uses them to increase the effectiveness of his agency (they are known world-wide). I cannot speak to Eleview or rBrides but Yuriy is a class act and I trust him fully. Even when I asked for him to help arrange for me to send funds to Tanya for her trip to America (I did not escort her to the USA) he did not ask for a fee for this service nor did he in anyway suggest that such would be needed. I have met his wife and children and they are a lovely and caring family.

I hope this in some way eases your concerns about V&V and that you see that it is unfair and unjust to include him on your "Grey List".

If you have any questions for me in this matter, please contact me at ***-***-****.

Sincerely yours,

Bill Morgan

Satisfied customer of Yuriy Gorbov and V&V Agency.

*****

----- Original Message -----

From: "Agency Scams" <jim@agencyscams.com>

To: <yuriy@***>

Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:48 AM

Subject: Re: Jim's List

Yuriy,

Your agency does not have a good reputation. Maybe YOU think so, and some clients....but it is not as good as you think.

I don't appreciate "REMOVE" demands. It is much better to talk to me nicely. And my reasons are MY reasons. I do not care what agency owners think, say or DEMAND.

I will remove your agency, if I don't receive any complaints, in ONE month. After that, if I get more complaints, I will add it again.

Also, tell your friend that I have PROOF that you have done bad things in the past. It is hard to trust someone in the present, but I am always fair. I just do not like DEMANDS.

Best of Luck,

Jim

DREAM-MARRIAGE.COM is a HUGE scam! They made AGENCYSCAMS.NET to discredit me. They copied anastasia-international.com's style step by step.

JIM'S Original Anti-Scam Site - http://agencyscams.com

JIM'S Agency Checklist Site - http://jimslists.com

*****

From: yuriy@***

To: jim@agencyscams.com

CC: bill@***

Subject: to not fair Jim :-((

Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 09:20:53 +0400

Dear Jim,

I have been working in this business for 13 years !!!! I have met HUNDREDS people!!!

Can you have a deal with such quantity people WITHOUT just ONE complain ?

I COULD !!!!;-)))

Yes, I am eager to see "bad things" which "I have done in the past" ...

But I do doubt you have something...:-( only words WITHOUT any FACTS ! :-(

You are telling me about policy and reputation ??!! You did include my good agency in your black list without CHECKING !!!:-(( shame to you!

You should think TWICE before including an HONEST agency in your list ! ;-)

It is very easy to damage good agency because such sites like yours...:-(

Yes, I DEMAND to remove my agency from your list !!!

Any case thank you for your answer...

Best regards,

Yuriy

*****

(This is an update that Jim made to his V&V posting after the above correspondence)

UPDATE - MAY 09

The owner, Yuriy, contacted me and demanded that I remove his agency from my Black List because I have no proof. So, I told him that I would remove his agency in one month, if I didn't receive any complaints.

He then DEMANDED again that I remove his agency from my site. DID YOU READ THAT? I told him that I WOULD remove his agency, but he

continued to yell at me and make demands.

His ONE main point is that I have no proof about bad things at this agency.

So, here it is...

The Angelika Network kicked him out of their network for writing fake letters. The letter above from a girl is proof that the agency is BAD!!!!!!!!!!

This is my last letter from the owner...

Subject: Re: to very fair Jim :-((

From: <yuriy@***>

Date: Mon, May 18, 2009 2:03 pm

To: "Agency Scams" <jim@agencyscams.com>

Priority: High

Options: View Full Header | View Printable Version | Download this as a file

ha-ha :-) when did you visit your psychologist last time ??

you need to take care about your nerves...LOL

Jim's philosophy on agencies....an agency is only as good as its owner.

This agency is exactly that. Good aegncy owners talk to me. Bad agency owners yell at me I would NEVER use this agency.

*****

----- Original Message -----

From: "Bill Morgan" <bill@***>

To: <angel@angelika.net>

Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:32 PM

Can you please provide me with any information, positive or negative that you may have on an agency in Taganrog, Russia named Valentin & Valentina.

I understand they were at one time affiliated with your company.

Thank you,

Bill Morgan

*****

From: angel@angelika.net

To: bill@***

Subject: Re:

Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 19:58:57 +0200

Hello Bill,

I have just checked the list of our agencies and I can tell you that we have never worked with the agency "Valentin and Valentina". We actually even did not have an office in Taganrog, the closest office to Taganrog was the office in Rostov on Don.

If you need any help or advise, or have any questions about our service, please let me know and we'll do our best to help.

Kind Regards,

Oksana Cook,

Angelika Russian Marriage Agency Network

http://www.angelika.net

*****

----- Original Message -----

From: bill@***

To: jim@agencyscams.com

Cc: angel@angelika.net

Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 6:54 AM

Subject: Valentin & Valentina Agency

Jim,

Bill Morgan here again,

Your website makes 2 claims that Yuriy & I take exception to. First is your claim that an anonymous individual received a letter from an anonymous woman claiming to have done business with Valentin & Valentina Agency (a.k.a V&V). Your second claim is that Angelika Network has expelled V&V from their network based on fraudulent acts perpetrated by V&V.

As part of your first claim you also state that women do not have contracts with agencies. We will address both aspects of this first claim:

"The letter above from a girl is proof that the agency is BAD!!!!!!!!!!"

You have not provided any information as to the identities of either the person claiming to have received this letter or the person who is claimed to have written it. There is no way to refute this scant evidence only because you have failed to provide any pertinent information necessary to research records in this matter. This is not proof. It is only hearsay and it is third hand hearsay at best. This would be thrown out of any court in the nation.

"Girls are free to deal with any agency they want, and if they are being held hostage by an agency, that is a HUGE reason for you to avoid the agency and for me to blacklist them."

The second part of your first claim is based only on your opinion of how some agencies may operate. I have inquired at Eleview International and

even asked a woman who I once corresponded with if she had a contract. The answer from both was yes. Contracts are not unusual with these

agencies and they are operated very similar to our very own Kelly Services. The person seeking the service signs a proprietary contract and agrees to participate exclusively with the agency, usually for a fee. The agency can also charge a fee for the person receiving the benefits on the other end, i.e. I pay Kelly to find me a job, they get me hired as a temp at a local business. I pay, the business pays, Kelly rakes in the bucks, perfectly legal and done every day. A smart agency would be making money from both ends. A contract insures that money from the asset will go to the company and an asset cannot terminate the contract at will without some penalty being assessed.

So, in a nutshell, your first claim lacks any substantiating or corroborating evidence and speaks in the face of normal business practices.

"The Angelika Network kicked him out of their network for writing fake letters."

Your second claim is that Angelika Network had "kicked him out" of their network. Clearly this is a fabrication as evidenced by Angelika's own records that show V&V never had any working relationship or otherwise with Angelika Network.

So in a nutshell, your second claim is clearly false.

I did a little research on my own and this is what Angelika Network has to say about the matter.

From: angel@angelika.net

To: bill@***

Subject: Re:

Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 19:58:57 +0200

Hello Bill,

I have just checked the list of our agencies and I can tell you that we have never worked with the agency "Valentin and Valentina". We actually even did not have an office in Taganrog, the closest office to Taganrog was the office in Rostov on Don.

If you need any help or advise, or have any questions about our service, please let me know and we'll do our best to help.

Kind Regards,

Oksana Cook,

Angelika Russian Marriage Agency Network

http://www.angelika.net

"Good aegncy owners talk to me. Bad agency owners yell at me"

Yuriy "yells" at you because you are spreading unsubstantiated rumors and lies about his agency. The e-mail above proves that your claims are false. I ask again for you to reconsider your course of action with regard to Yuriy and his agency.

I am Cc'ing this to Angelika Network so they are in the loop that their good name is being used in your effort to defame innocent independent agencies. I cannot prevent you from doing what you do but perhaps those that you claim you support might have better luck reigning you in.

At this time, I am keeping the communications regarding these wrongful actions, between yourself, myself, Yuriy, and Angelika Network as they are unwilling parties to your slander. Wouldn't it be great if it stayed that way?

Yuriy is a good man. He is an honest man and he works very hard for his customers. As stated above, he has exploited only an area not covered by Angelika Network. You have done this good man a serious injustice and on behalf of Yuriy, I ask you to right this wrong and clear his name, and that of his agency, from your site immediately.

Sincerely,

Bill Morgan

*****

From: yuriy@***

To: bill@***

Subject: Re: Valentin & Valentina Agency

Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 12:30:01 +0400

Bill,

Thank you for your help and your fight for my good name !!! I do appreciate it !!!

Thank you very MUCH !!!

Bets wishes,

Yuriy

*****

Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 15:34:27 -0400

Subject: Re: Valentin & Valentina Agency

From: jim@agencyscams.com

To: bill@***

Bill,

I don't know who you are and why I would care that you take exception to anything I do or write. Fact is, I don't care. The agency OWNER is free to talk to me. I have the identities of the letter writers, and I prefer to keep them private. That is my choice. If someone has a problem with that, it is not my problem.

I told Yuriy that I would remove his agency from the list and he continued to be rude to me.

So, here is the deal. (DON'T FORGET, I make the rules about MY site. Don't like it? I don't care.) I made a date to remove V&V from my site. That date has been pushed back another month because of this letter from you. It will be pushed back another month for EVERY letter I get from you, Yuriy or anyone else complaining about V&V being on my site.

Before Monday of next week, I will make changes to the page. No other changes will be made. I will delete the page on the date I have decided. Don't ask me when that is.

EVERY letter I get in regards to V&V pushes back the removal date. End of discussion.

Best of Luck,

Jim

DREAM-MARRIAGE.COM is a HUGE scam! They made AGENCYSCAMS.NET to discredit me. They copied anastasia-international.com's style step by

step.

JIM'S Original Anti-Scam Site - http://agencyscams.com

JIM'S Agency Checklist Site - http://jimslists.com

*****

The problem here is that Yuriy is a nice guy. He was fair and helpful and I recommend him to anyone interested in a woman from the Taganrog area. Jim on the other hand is a megalomaniac who has found more power in his web site than he can handle.

Unfortunately for Yuriy, there are few laws at this point that protect his rights and good name and a large amount of money and attorneys would be necessary to fight this. Jim knows that. The best way to fight it is to get the word out that while his site and others may provide good information, believing that they are just doing this as a pseudo-crusade is foolish.

There is money at stake and Jim, like so many others is out to cash in. Yuriy is doing this by marketing his knowledge of the process, speaking 2 languages and having a sincere interest in what he does. Jim does this by trashing the competition of his benefactor. A scam is a scam and Jim’s website is bogus.

Jim has entered the world of libel. There is a legal difference. By doing this, Jim has broken the law as clearly and readily as the scammers he professes to protect us from. (I give full credit to the internet for the following information)

***** http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Libel

libel 1) n. to publish in print (including pictures), writing or broadcast through radio, television or film, an untruth about another which will do harm to that person or his/her reputation, by tending to bring the target into ridicule, hatred, scorn or contempt of others. Libel is the written or broadcast form of defamation, distinguished from slander which is oral defamation. It is a tort (civil wrong) making the person or entity (like a newspaper, magazine or political organization) open to a lawsuit for damages by the person who can prove the statement about him/her was a lie. Publication need only be to one person, but it must be a statement which claims to be fact, and is not clearly identified as an opinion. While it is sometimes said that the person making the libelous statement must have been intentional and malicious, actually it need only be obvious that the statement would do harm and is untrue. Proof of malice, however, does allow a party defamed to sue for "general damages" for damage to reputation, while an inadvertent libel limits the damages to actual harm (such as loss of business) called "special damages." "Libel per se" involves statements so vicious that malice is assumed and does not require a proof of intent to get an award of general damages. Libel against the reputation of a person who has died will allow surviving members of the family to bring an action for damages. Most states provide for a party defamed by a periodical to demand a published retraction. If the correction is made, then there is no right to file a lawsuit. Governmental bodies are supposedly immune for actions for libel on the basis that there could be no intent by a non-personal entity, and further, public records are exempt from claims of libel. However, there is at least one known case in which there was a financial settlement as well as a published correction when a state government newsletter incorrectly stated that a dentist had been disciplined for illegal conduct. The rules covering libel against a "public figure" (particularly a political or governmental person) are special, based on U. S. Supreme Court decisions. The key is that to uphold the right to express opinions or fair comment on public figures, the libel must be malicious to constitute grounds for a lawsuit for damages. Minor errors in reporting are not libel, such as saying Mrs. Jones was 55 when she was only 48, or getting an address or title incorrect. 2) v. to broadcast or publish a written defamatory statement.

Edited August 16, 2009 by NavarreMan

[Brad and Vika 129]

NavarreMan - I am totally missing the point of all that. Please give it to us in Reader's Digest.

[mox 298]

NavarreMan - I am totally missing the point of all that. Please give it to us in Reader's Digest.

Seconded, esp with the last post in that thread being 9 months ago.

[NavarreMan 10]

Post for those who think JimsList is a kosher source. Result of a search on VJ for "Jimslist". Can't help that the last post before mine was 9 months ago. When I see people say things like "just check them out with Jimslist.com" I cringe after the nasty little surprise my friend Yuriy got from Jim. It's like a crack dealer telling you not to trust the other drug dealers. There is no condensed version. To prove that Jim is bogus, the evidence must be presented.