If you could vote in the U.S. Election

[thetreble 19]

I tend to agree with Nevada here for a lot of different reasons. First, while it is easy to just write off the rest of the world and only think about yourself, your life and supporting yourself because you don't have the time or money is just too simplistic.

You discuss your dislike for NJ a lot. You discuss how unsafe it is, you mentioned that there are a lot of poor people. Why is that? Its easy to blame poor people to say they are lazy or don't work hard. It's easy to complain about how much NJ sucks. But why is it so expensive to live in a nice neighbourhood? Why is it so hard to go places at night by yourself? Why do you have to work so much to be able to afford a nice life for yourself and family?

Maybe you don't feel like others matter, but they do and they affect you every day of your life.

First of all, I never said others don't matter. Don't put words in my mouth. I do care about other people and just because I don't want to give them money, it doesn't mean I don't care about them. If you are going to point out how I dislike New Jersey, which is my choice and my opinion by the way, let me discuss how you brag about how great NYC is and you don't even live there yet. I thought NJ was a fantastic place until I actually lived there every day and had to deal with the drag of every day life here. So please, don't get personal about this...that is really not fair and has nothing to do with the discussion. Furthermore, Nevada also lives in NJ and has said as many bad things about it as I had so why did you fail to mention her discussions of what she hates about NJ? We actually happen to agree with a lot of things going on in NJ that we dislike.

There are a lot of poor people in NJ for many reasons. Please do not infer that I said people are just down and out lazy. That is not the case. Some people are of course unfortunate and can't get out of a repetitious cycle of poverty. For that, we can try to help as much as we can. There are tons of programs in New Jersey, though, to help. My husband works in a restaurant and do you know how many pregnant teens work for him? Almost half of the girls that are servers at the restaurant have dropped out of school at 15 or 16 and are now pregnant. That is just a fact of life. Believe me, I never had this perspective until I lived here. Canada made me very jaded on a lot of these issues and facts of life because I never faced crime, poverty, ignorance, etc. before. Try being called a "white ######" while sitting in a passenger seat of a car, and doing absolutely nothing or being chased by a bunch of teenagers after not being able to cut you off...and them screaming out the window "go home to canada you *unt". How am I supposed to feel about life here when I face that?

It is expensive to live in a nice neighbourhood because there are simply so many bad ones to live in. You pay high taxes for your safety and decent schools. Don't you think it's a shame that people have to pay $15,000 a year to live in a decent neighbourhood or that my father in law had to pay to send my husband to catholic school because the school in his district was too dangerous? So are you saying that if we helped more, there would be less crime and therefore, I wouldn't have to pay a high price to have a safe life? Believe me, it has been tried time and time again.

I really couldn't give a #### what you or any one else thinks about me or my beliefs. You can judge me and that is okay because you don't even know who I am. As long as I know that I'm a good person and good to others, I really don't care about anything beyond that.

As far as paying higher taxes, I can't afford to!! You are basically saying us "wealthy" and "advantaged"....I'm not wealthy nor am I advantaged! I paid for every cent of my university education as well as my living expenses because my parents couldn't afford it. I worked my ### off in highschool, which was free, to get into university in the first place. Again, be careful how you throw the terms wealthy and advantaged around because I don't believe any of us here are children of media or hotel moguls.

Edited November 12, 2008 by thetreble

[Ban Hammer 13,343]

what's up with the canadian forum sounding like ot?

[Sprailenes 47]

what's up with the canadian forum sounding like ot?

I don't know.

But I don't think we should talk about politics anymore.

[thetreble 19]

what's up with the canadian forum sounding like ot?

I don't know.

But I don't think we should talk about politics anymore.

Agreed. I'm exhausted from the last post I wrote. I don't like getting all in a bunch with you guys. I really don't.

[trailmix 77]

what's up with the canadian forum sounding like ot?

Umm no, while we may disagree sometimes, at least the responses are well thought out!

I recommend that we all go to the secret santa thread and tell Christmas stories

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=161196

[SapphireDreams 71]

I tend to agree with Nevada here for a lot of different reasons. First, while it is easy to just write off the rest of the world and only think about yourself, your life and supporting yourself because you don't have the time or money is just too simplistic.

You discuss your dislike for NJ a lot. You discuss how unsafe it is, you mentioned that there are a lot of poor people. Why is that? Its easy to blame poor people to say they are lazy or don't work hard. It's easy to complain about how much NJ sucks. But why is it so expensive to live in a nice neighbourhood? Why is it so hard to go places at night by yourself? Why do you have to work so much to be able to afford a nice life for yourself and family?

Maybe you don't feel like others matter, but they do and they affect you every day of your life.

First of all, I never said others don't matter. Don't put words in my mouth. I do care about other people and just because I don't want to give them money, it doesn't mean I don't care about them. If you are going to point out how I dislike New Jersey, which is my choice and my opinion by the way, let me discuss how you brag about how great NYC is and you don't even live there yet. I thought NJ was a fantastic place until I actually lived there every day and had to deal with the drag of every day life here. So please, don't get personal about this...that is really not fair and has nothing to do with the discussion. Furthermore, Nevada also lives in NJ and has said as many bad things about it as I had so why did you fail to mention her discussions of what she hates about NJ? We actually happen to agree with a lot of things going on in NJ that we dislike.

There are a lot of poor people in NJ for many reasons. Please do not infer that I said people are just down and out lazy. That is not the case. Some people are of course unfortunate and can't get out of a repetitious cycle of poverty. For that, we can try to help as much as we can. There are tons of programs in New Jersey, though, to help. My husband works in a restaurant and do you know how many pregnant teens work for him? Almost half of the girls that are servers at the restaurant have dropped out of school at 15 or 16 and are now pregnant. That is just a fact of life. Believe me, I never had this perspective until I lived here. Canada made me very jaded on a lot of these issues and facts of life because I never faced crime, poverty, ignorance, etc. before. Try being called a "white ######" while sitting in a passenger seat of a car, and doing absolutely nothing or being chased by a bunch of teenagers after not being able to cut you off...and them screaming out the window "go home to canada you *unt". How am I supposed to feel about life here when I face that?

It is expensive to live in a nice neighbourhood because there are simply so many bad ones to live in. You pay high taxes for your safety and decent schools. Don't you think it's a shame that people have to pay $15,000 a year to live in a decent neighbourhood or that my father in law had to pay to send my husband to catholic school because the school in his district was too dangerous? So are you saying that if we helped more, there would be less crime and therefore, I wouldn't have to pay a high price to have a safe life? Believe me, it has been tried time and time again.

I really couldn't give a #### what you or any one else thinks about me or my beliefs. You can judge me and that is okay because you don't even know who I am. As long as I know that I'm a good person and good to others, I really don't care about anything beyond that.

As far as paying higher taxes, I can't afford to!! You are basically saying us "wealthy" and "advantaged"....I'm not wealthy nor am I advantaged! I paid for every cent of my university education as well as my living expenses because my parents couldn't afford it. I worked my ### off in highschool, which was free, to get into university in the first place. Again, be careful how you throw the terms wealthy and advantaged around because I don't believe any of us here are children of media or hotel moguls.

I apologize if you took what I said personally, I admit after I wrote it I thought it was probably a bit too personal, so again I'm sorry for that - you're right, I don't know you but I do think you are a good person and I don't think you don't care about. I also wasn't judging you, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. I was just going from one post where you said:

Which is commendable. Unfortunately or fortunately for me I guess, when I see the problems on television I say, "wow that is very sad...." and then realize I can't help financially and don't have the time to be pro-active about it. I guess I leave it up to others who have time and money.

My point was that, it's all about having an attitude, yes I paid every cent of my way through University too, my parents are as working class as they come, but paying higher taxes, even as a middle class citizen is not going to hurt us. We do have the money. We work hard, very very hard, maybe even harder than a lot of people, but poor people are stuck in a spiralling abyss of poorness that they can never overcome. We can make it work (in my opinion). They need help. More help than we do in my opinion. I believe that I am at an advantage simply because I am not in poverty. The world around us is crumbling and so my point is that if higher taxes are going to help that, then so be it. I will pay them, even if that means my take home pay will just barely get me by. I don't think we are advantaged in the wealthy, movie star kind of way, but compared to people who can't afford to buy their children shoes, we are advantaged.

I wasn't trying to come across as judging you. While I don't live in NY yet, I have been dating my boyfriend for over 5 years and spend a lot of time there to assimilate myself and understand what life would really be like. I agree I have no idea what it will really be like. But, I'm basing my thoughts on more than just a handful of visits of sightseeing and shopping. I have been heckled at before too. I stick out like a sore thumb in my boyfriend's neighbourhood in Queens. I had some punk ### kids YELL bad things to me too while walking down the street. I know its not all roses, it's a rough rough place to live. My bf actually also had a similar upbringing with his parents paying for him to go to Catholic school and so I see your point there. People are not NOT nice there. At all. I don't walk around alone at night, we have bars on our windows and its a very different world. Sorry if I got personal, sorry if you think I brag, I think that I have a lot to learn, I already know being Canadian in the US is hard, we have a different environment here... anyways I'm just blabbering now, I wanted to use NJ as an example, but it wasn't a very good one. I should have just generally referred to the US, because I think the same goes for almost every state. I'm sure social programs exist, but they need work and we need to help. Whether that's by paying higher taxes, creating awareness, maintaining a positive attitude. I used to think that I couldn't make a difference, I used to feel the same way, sad for people, and that I should leave it to others. But, we're in this together. You, me, the person who heckled at you.

Also, I DO think you're a good person, I actually really enjoy coming on here and discussing things with you because I think you are extremely intelligent and aren't afraid to say what you think. I think that you and I are probably very similar in a lot of ways.

Anyways, this has gone way off-topic and it's my fault. That was not my intention. I hope that you can forgive me and that we can all be friends.

I'm now fully convinced that friends should not let friends discuss politics or religion. It always ends up so sour because there is no right or wrong or exact science.

[thetreble 19]

Can we hug now?

Sapphire thank you for saying what you said. I think we both got a little heated and I see what kind of points you were trying to make. I really do hope you love life in NYC..it is a fantastic place. And in fact, I am liking life here in NJ a bit more every day, especially now that I'm close to having a home in a place I think I can actually get by in.

Everything is an adjustment, even politics. I wish we can make it work..I really do. I hope that the next 4 years brings us some positive changes. Is my outlook going to change once I don't live in urban NJ any more? Possibly! I live next to Newark, Irvington and Elizabeth so all I see is negativity and poverty and crime. I feel like I side with both Bill Cosby and Michael Eric Dyson. Bill Cosby has said for years that people in poverty need to break the cycle after society has come so far in what it can give every citizen. Michael Eric Dyson says that breaking the cycle is almost impossible and that poor areas and poor people still suffer from repression. I agree with both of them to some degree. You go to areas like Camden, NJ and you realize why the cycle repeats...it's too dangerous for business to operate, therefore less jobs, less money for the town, etc. and the cycle of gangs and drugs and crime and teenage pregnancy just continues.

There is a lot of sadness in our world. But I will tell you one thing...I would rather see money be put here in the US towards social programs than see money go to other places in the world. Again, that is a bold statement..but if I want to help any one out, it's going to be my own countrymen.

[Sprailenes 47]

Aww group hug.

[warlord 73]

Well do we know Obama will be able to change things? Who knows, some on here have doubts while others don't, in the meantime we won't know until he's in office. The whole thing is at least we know he might be able to change things for the better.

We do know that McCain would not change things and that was the whole issue of people at least willing to go with someone that might change things for the better over someone who didn't care to change anything and let the country go further down the drain...

[cdn_in_wa 1]

Sorry, didn't have time to get back here yesterday and respond. I know you've all hugged and made up. I'll try and make it short.

I'm not this selfish person who doesn't want to help others, either. I do care. I've spent the better part of my live volunteering for one thing or another. Throwing money at a problem is not the answer. And I truly don't think it's the place of government to do the helping.

Have you dealt with any government agencies lately?

They're really efficient, right?

Therein lies the problem. Government is inefficient and will never use the money they collect to do the best job that can be done.

Honestly, think about it. Would any of you hire a Government agency to do *anything* for you?

That's what you're doing when you suggest sending them more tax dollars to 'fix' the problems.

'nuff said.

I'm heading to Canada, later. Have a good end of the week!

Peace.

[cdn_in_wa 1]

Well do we know Obama will be able to change things? Who knows, some on here have doubts while others don't, in the meantime we won't know until he's in office. The whole thing is at least we know he might be able to change things for the better.

We do know that McCain would not change things and that was the whole issue of people at least willing to go with someone that might change things for the better over someone who didn't care to change anything and let the country go further down the drain...

We only think Obama might change things for the better. He claimed he would, but he claimed a lot of stuff. It remains to be seen if any of it is acted on now that he's won. Hope.

We do not know that McCain would not change things. Among other things, McCain claimed he wanted to reform gov't and rid the gov't of corruption. Maybe he wasn't running to change stuff you wanted, so you didn't hear that part?

I'm not okay with corruption in gov't. And what I'm seeing in the Obama transition so far, gives me little comfort that corruption's going anywhere in a hurry.

/

[Sprailenes 47]

I trust Obama though. I know a lot of people don't because he's a politician but I do trust him. I don't think Obama is going to fix everything, but he's great at public speaking and I think he could motivate the people to do more. You can't just sit back and expect one man and his advisors to fix everything.

Well I for one am tired of trying to justify where I live, and my husband is tired of apologizing for being an American. I am getting tired of the jokes and the punches, and the "stupid american" comments. I want things to change, and I am willing to work to make things change. I am just tired of living in the joke country.

I don't know if Obama will change that, but I think he'll start. Already the world approves of the choice this country has made in its leadership, and i want the world to continue to approve of the US because this country has done a lot to upset the world and I don't want to live in a hated country anymore.

I just want to be proud of where I choose to live and I want my son to grow up proud too.

ETA: Yes I too am guilty of making fun of this country on more than one occassion! But even I am getting tired of my own jokes. You just start to realize that this is where I came to live and I don't want to be patriotic but I don't want to be ashamed anymore. It's like being the fat kid in grade school.

Edited November 12, 2008 by Sprailenes

[warlord 73]

Well presidents only can do what they're government allows them to do, so no doubtful there will be any huge drastic immediate new health care reform or huge massive troop re-distrubution right away etc. It'll all take time, and people just have to hope. It's like choosing the lesser of two evils (politicians). We all know every year it's going to be a Republican or Democrat in office regardless of how many other parties are involved.

So many people each election just realize they're stuck between picking one person between 2 parties since otherwise it would probably be a wasted vote. I myself wasn't an Obama supporter, I was a big Hillary one and when she didn't come in I wasn't sure what I was going to do myself. I did my research and just seemed to like Obama much better then McCain. I'm sure there are other people that I would have liked better in office, but I know if I did that, it would be throwing my vote to the other side.

Oh well, politics is politics and no one will ever be happy with whose in office no matter what. So just have to hope things go the right way rather then the wrong way every time we get a new president...

[Ban Hammer 13,343]

Aww group hug.

where's the timbits?

[The_Dude 1,142]

It's quite funny trying to explain the election to someone who doesn't know about U.S. politics. None the less, I found myself doing that this election cycle when my fiance (Melissa) would ask. And when you say it out loud, our system of electing a president, or virtually any political leader is quite preposterous. When did it become a bad thing to be an "Elite"? I mean, if i'm going to have surgery, i would want an elite doctor, and not some every day person who I can relate with. I think our leaders should be more intelligent than the general population.

Personally, I'm a Libertarian, and my political views encompass a bit of both major parties. I was a supporter of Ron Paul, at first, but as it became aparent that his candidacy would not be viable, I started to take a harder look at Obama. Ultimately, it came down to Obama had substantive ideas as to what we should do with the our situation in Iraq, and the economy, while Senator McCain and Gov. Palin couldn't muster any real plan.

Now, seeing the makeup of our congress, Obama will not have free reign to do what he wishes, which I think is a good thing. Look what happened to the U.S. when George Bush had a veto proof majority for 6 years........