Is Obama really proposing anything new?

[Gigli2008 70]

Who said new? The word Obama has been using is 'change'...and that one should be self explanatory by now.

O.k. I see your point, He says "Change!!!" and change he will be delivering, but change without forsight, careful estimation of the consequences, common sense and some aknowledgement of how his policies have failed in past administrations, is down right foolish. Convince me that he will not repeat the same mistakes that this great country has had to learn from in the past. Where is the foundation to his "Change", show me how it adds up to a better life for all Americans. The numbers don't add up, history has proven it. Do you really want to be a socialist nation?

It's 7 days to go and you still need convincing. There are two choices. Go with whichever one you feel has convinced you on the future you seek. If you don't think Obama is your candidate go with McCain. No one will fault you for it. But don't think that you are going to change any minds with 7 days to go.

There is a lot of information out there, newspapers, magazines, 24 hour election coverage. Both candidates have websites. If the endorsements to both candidates do not mean anything to you; If you have read every newspaper out there and updated yourself with policies of both candidates posted on their websites; 7 days to go, you should already have put in your vote or decided on your candidate, not asking to be convinced that Obama is NOT your candidate.

[rupa 2]

I agree that going bankrupt is not right for those with pre-existing health conditions who are trying to get by and for whom no aparent alternative exists. We see eye to eye on that, but McCain knows that also and has addressed it in the link below. I don't think stalling job growth and punishing the businesses that employ people is going to solve the problem of healthcare either. It will not be an easy problem to solve and I'm not saying I have all the wisdome or answers on that one. But what are you going to do with cheaper healthcare and less or no jobs or a potentially significant pay cut? Do you think that the Government can pay for free healthcare for 330+ million people and not go into an even deeper hole. Many other things will begin to suffer. McCain is not ignoring the issue, but I just have a hard time believing that the tax collected by Obama will serve any purpose other than to further cripple the country.

I paid 23K in taxes last year and all I had was an eye exam. Obama would take a further 3k. You are saying that I worked my ### off, to pay off my student loans and serve our country (I worked for the government in Canada and a couple extra jobs) so that money could go to those who care not to work or try to better themselves?? Please answer me that, I'm having a really hard time with it. I have no problem with people who need the help getting it, but Obama does not define who those people are, He will give it to everyone below a certain income level, wether they are working hard for something better or not.

http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues...cf2edb527cf.htm

"John McCain believes that no American should be denied access to quality and affordable coverage simply because of a pre-existing condition. As President, John McCain will work with governors to develop a best practice model that states can follow – a Guaranteed Access Plan or GAP – that would reflect the best experience of the states to ensure these patients have access to health coverage. There would be reasonable limits on premiums, and assistance would be available for Americans below a certain income level."

"The Obama plan will create a brand new government-run health plan at the cost of $243 billion a year – a financial burden of more than $3,000 a year on American families."

Just a note, I'm posting this to have some intelligent conversations, explore the issues. You have an opportunity to change my mind and I'm looking for some real answers.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

McCain will tax your healthcare premiums.

Obama won't.

[rupa 2]

Who said new? The word Obama has been using is 'change'...and that one should be self explanatory by now.

O.k. I see your point, He says "Change!!!" and change he will be delivering, but change without forsight, careful estimation of the consequences, common sense and some aknowledgement of how his policies have failed in past administrations, is down right foolish. Convince me that he will not repeat the same mistakes that this great country has had to learn from in the past. Where is the foundation to his "Change", show me how it adds up to a better life for all Americans. The numbers don't add up, history has proven it. Do you really want to be a socialist nation?

It's 7 days to go and you still need convincing. There are two choices. Go with whichever one you feel has convinced you on the future you seek. If you don't think Obama is your candidate go with McCain. No one will fault you for it. But don't think that you are going to change any minds with 7 days to go.

There is a lot of information out there, newspapers, magazines, 24 hour election coverage. Both candidates have websites. If the endorsements to both candidates do not mean anything to you; If you have read every newspaper out there and updated yourself with policies of both candidates posted on their websites; 7 days to go, you should already have put in your vote or decided on your candidate, not asking to be convinced that Obama is NOT your candidate.

SO it's o.k. to plaster VJ with pro Obama threads but wrong to post a challenge to them?

[IAMX 3,055]

O.k. Obama supporters, have at er. Prove me wrong, but most of what His royal majesty would propose has already been done, and it never workd the first time, so why does he think it's going to work now and not send things into a further tailspin?

People need jobs, companies need to keep their money so they can employ more people and sell more goods. Raise taxes on businesses, companies fire more people, move to other countries with less taxes, and people with no jobs drive the government debt even further and the socialist monster keeps growing . People, this is to me what Obama seems to be proposing, but for those of you who think not, care to enlighten me?

I'm also from a slightly more socialist country, and know what it's like to give 35% of my paycheque to the government and get a kick in the teeth in return. Free healthcare is not free, you pay more for it with your taxes than you would out of your own pocket, and spreading the wealth does not generate a productive working class. i.e. does giving a teenager 20$ and telling him it would be nice if he chose to mow the lawn, get the lawn mowed? Unless he is an exceptional kid, the grass will be knee high before it gets cut. But don't give him anything and say he can earn the 20$ by mowing the lawn, there's a much greater chance that the lawn will get mowed. That's how America was built. By giving opportunities to people to earn their wealth. People need that motivation to work or they'll just suck the system dry. Human nature is that of "if some one is going to just give it to me, than why should I try." Is Obama really going to build a stronger more productive nation??? I'm thinking no.

http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2008/...eternal-return/

Enthusiasm for Obama among the scribbling classes–journalists, academics, most beneficiaries of tertiary education, and, ex officio, “community organizers†of all descriptions–puts me in mind of Friedrich Nietzsche’s idea of the Eternal Return. Nietzsche wanted to come up with the world’s most difficult idea–difficult in the moral or emotional sense. Nietzsche wanted to affirm the the world, but he wanted to be sure he wasn’t sentimentalizing it. Hence the idea of the eternal recurrence: if he could say Yes to a world in which everything returned over and over again–every horror, every boredom, every stupidity–then he would know he had achieved his goal.

As a piece of philosophy, I think the idea of the eternal return of the same is a pretty silly idea, but as a metaphor for human folly it has its uses. If the pundits are to be believed, the American people are just about to elect as President a man who espouses in concentrated form just about every bad, discredited, and exploded social and economic idea of the last fifty years.

For example, as has been pointed out by many commentators, what people call Obama’s “tax plan†is really a tax and welfare plan. Far from granting a tax cut on “95 percent†of taxpayers, as he claims, it will raise a whole suite of taxes:

– marginal tax rates

– estate taxes

– taxes on dividends

– capital gains taxes

And that is before breakfast. Just wait till Obama, together with a Congress led by Nancy Pelosi and Henry Reid, really get going.

But the tax portion of the Obama Plan to Redistribute Money is only the first step. A second and in some ways even more worrisome portion regards the welfare side of the equation. Note well: it’s not just that Obama plans to cut taxes for people he thinks do not make enough money; he also wants to send them some money from folks whom he thinks make too much money. Yes, that’s right: the IRS will be in the business of issuing as well as collecting checks, not just for refunds, as has been their practice, but as a means of redistributing your money to those that Obama thinks deserve it more.

In other words, Obama plans to resuscitate the welfare policies of the Great Society, but by stealth. It will be the same thing–the dole–but it will be called a “tax credit,†which has a more emollient sound than “relief,†“public charity,†“the dole.â€

What I find depressing about this–as, indeed, about the whole Obama juggernaut–is the extent to which it represents a return of bad ideas that have already been tried time and again, have failed and made people poorer and less stalwart, and yet seem poised to make a sorry comeback once again. I’ve written about the “déjà-vu-all-over-again†phenomenon before in this space. Bill Ayers? Haven’t we done that? Jeremiah Wright? Haven’t we done that, too? Haven’t we tried Obama’s “soak the rich,†anti-business economic policies? Haven’t we tried his “can’t-we-all-just-get-along†foreign policy? Don’t we know that economics is about the creation rather than the redistribution of wealth, and that low taxes and strategies that encourage productivity and investment are best calculated to make the entire society, including the less fortunate, more prosperous? Don’t we know where appeasement and capitulation get us in foreign affairs? Don’t we remember Jimmy Carter? Haven’t we learned anything?

The whole thing puts me in mind not only of Nietzsche but also of that advertising slogan: In Life, Experience Is the Great Teacher; In Scotch, Teacher’s Is the Great Experience. The problem, of course, is that experience has been a bad tutor indeed, which is why one wants to reach the Teach.

Still, I do not despair. I’m on record saying that I thought McCain would win by a landslide. Of course, that was before the economy suddenly said good by to $3 trillion, a fact that bizarrely counts for Obama–â€bizarre†since it was the policies of his party that precipitated this economic dégringolade. Nevertheless, were I Obama, I’d hesitate before thinking about how to furnish the Oval Office.

People tell me that all the ducks are lining up in a row for Obama. To which I say: “Fine. But are the voters?†A few months ago I said I didn’t think Hillary would get the nomination. Everyone looked at me sadly and said, “Poor chump, don’t you see it’s inevitable?†Like so many things, it was inevitable until it didn’t happen. That’s one reason I dislike this constant recourse to polls–weekly, daily, hourly polls, polls, polls. But “RealClearPolitics/Gallup/Zogby/Rasmussen says . . .†Meaning what? That voting is a superfluous exercise? “Oh no, you must vote, but really the polls say . . .†I say, forget the polls: just vote. You might be surprised!

I just see a very calculated character assassination, and someone who is likely listening way too much to both Harper and Bush about privatization. If I were to ever have a year of getting sick, I'd easily owe more than $5,000 in visits alone, and that's assuming I go to specific hospitals my insurance wants to cover. Hell, I have a $4,000 tab I'm still picking up from one visit just because it wasn't at an authorized hospital, so they wouldn't cover #######. Is that something you really have to worry about in Canada? No, don't take my precious paycheck, and #### the rest of you? Good thing many Canadians aren't this selfish.

By the way, are you seeing where the Bush Doctrine of pre-planned wars, propaganda, pre-emptive strikes, ignoring the borders of sovereign nations, is getting this country? Your mentality is somehow Jimmy Carter is any worse with this country being looked at with less and less favor abroad (there is a further emphasis on people fearing American terrorism more than Islamic extremism) because of Bush and co?

Regarding Ayers and Wright.. people would be bold-faced lying if they suggested they don't hang out with someone who had different political views, some of them downright offensive. If the suggestion is Obama is responsible for Wright's views, despite denouncing them, or that he's responsible for what Ayers did in the past, despite not participating or condoning it, then you've really got your priorities twisted, as neither have represented in any fashion sometimes to do with how Obama would be the President.

I may be emphatically not voting for Obama, but it's funny that you cite Nietzsche with a religious-like rant. How about addressing pertinent issues like his cozying up to AT&T and other big business? How can he not be good for business when they're buying his DNC? He's shown he will bail out corporations before people, just like McCain.

Edited October 28, 2008 by SRVT

[HAL 9000 96]

Who said new? The word Obama has been using is 'change'...and that one should be self explanatory by now.

O.k. I see your point, He says "Change!!!" and change he will be delivering, but change without forsight, careful estimation of the consequences, common sense and some aknowledgement of how his policies have failed in past administrations, is down right foolish. Convince me that he will not repeat the same mistakes that this great country has had to learn from in the past. Where is the foundation to his "Change", show me how it adds up to a better life for all Americans. The numbers don't add up, history has proven it. Do you really want to be a socialist nation?

It's 7 days to go and you still need convincing. There are two choices. Go with whichever one you feel has convinced you on the future you seek. If you don't think Obama is your candidate go with McCain. No one will fault you for it. But don't think that you are going to change any minds with 7 days to go.

There is a lot of information out there, newspapers, magazines, 24 hour election coverage. Both candidates have websites. If the endorsements to both candidates do not mean anything to you; If you have read every newspaper out there and updated yourself with policies of both candidates posted on their websites; 7 days to go, you should already have put in your vote or decided on your candidate, not asking to be convinced that Obama is NOT your candidate.

SO it's o.k. to plaster VJ with pro Obama threads but wrong to post a challenge to them?

Its perfectly OK to challenge what you wish to challenge. Its not perfectly OK to be ignorant of information that's been precisely repeated over and over in most media formats.

[Ban Hammer 13,337]

SO it's o.k. to plaster VJ with pro Obama threads but wrong to post a challenge to them?

you're catching on.

[sly_wolf 199]

Who said new? The word Obama has been using is 'change'...and that one should be self explanatory by now.

O.k. I see your point, He says "Change!!!" and change he will be delivering, but change without forsight, careful estimation of the consequences, common sense and some aknowledgement of how his policies have failed in past administrations, is down right foolish. Convince me that he will not repeat the same mistakes that this great country has had to learn from in the past. Where is the foundation to his "Change", show me how it adds up to a better life for all Americans. The numbers don't add up, history has proven it. Do you really want to be a socialist nation?

It's 7 days to go and you still need convincing. There are two choices. Go with whichever one you feel has convinced you on the future you seek. If you don't think Obama is your candidate go with McCain. No one will fault you for it. But don't think that you are going to change any minds with 7 days to go.

There is a lot of information out there, newspapers, magazines, 24 hour election coverage. Both candidates have websites. If the endorsements to both candidates do not mean anything to you; If you have read every newspaper out there and updated yourself with policies of both candidates posted on their websites; 7 days to go, you should already have put in your vote or decided on your candidate, not asking to be convinced that Obama is NOT your candidate.

SO it's o.k. to plaster VJ with pro Obama threads but wrong to post a challenge to them?

I'm just not seeing that.

Sly

[Gigli2008 70]

Who said new? The word Obama has been using is 'change'...and that one should be self explanatory by now.

O.k. I see your point, He says "Change!!!" and change he will be delivering, but change without forsight, careful estimation of the consequences, common sense and some aknowledgement of how his policies have failed in past administrations, is down right foolish. Convince me that he will not repeat the same mistakes that this great country has had to learn from in the past. Where is the foundation to his "Change", show me how it adds up to a better life for all Americans. The numbers don't add up, history has proven it. Do you really want to be a socialist nation?

It's 7 days to go and you still need convincing. There are two choices. Go with whichever one you feel has convinced you on the future you seek. If you don't think Obama is your candidate go with McCain. No one will fault you for it. But don't think that you are going to change any minds with 7 days to go.

There is a lot of information out there, newspapers, magazines, 24 hour election coverage. Both candidates have websites. If the endorsements to both candidates do not mean anything to you; If you have read every newspaper out there and updated yourself with policies of both candidates posted on their websites; 7 days to go, you should already have put in your vote or decided on your candidate, not asking to be convinced that Obama is NOT your candidate.

SO it's o.k. to plaster VJ with pro Obama threads but wrong to post a challenge to them?

There is nothing OK or wrong. You posted and I gave you my opinion. Isn't that what it's all about? Or is there a criteria for how I should have replied? You don't like my opinion, just say........next?

I just hope that all the so called un-decided's have made up their minds (either way) ....7 days to go.... is what my opinion was about.

[Niels Bohr 72]

People need jobs, companies need to keep their money so they can employ more people and sell more goods. Raise taxes on businesses, companies fire more people, move to other countries with less taxes, and people with no jobs drive the government debt even further and the socialist monster keeps growing . People, this is to me what Obama seems to be proposing, but for those of you who think not, care to enlighten me?

Companies do not want competition because it lower profits. Therefore, lower operational budgets. Giving tax breaks to small business will increase competition by promoting growth. The effect will be cheaper goods and services. However, it reduces their profits due to competition. Leading to less money to hire someone.

[rupa 2]

"Hell, I have a $4,000 tab I'm still picking up from one visit just because it wasn't at an authorized hospital, so they wouldn't cover #######. Is that something you really have to worry about in Canada? No, don't take my precious paycheck, and #### the rest of you? Good thing many Canadians aren't this selfish"

O.k. give me my 23K back and I'll pay your 4, 000 tab, I don't know where the heck my tax dollars went, my mother still had to pay 3,000 to have "necessary" back surgery to avoid ending up crippled, and that was with "free healthcare" AND she also was on a wait list for two years. It was awful watching her deal with the pain and limited mobiilty while she waited. I also paid 600$ five years ago for a 15 minute ambulance ride because "free healthcare" does not cover ambulance rides or the treatment you receive while in them. I slipped and hit my head in a hotel and their policy was to send me to the hospital so I would not sue them. I did not pay for additional coverage at the time because I was a student trying to save money (as you need to pay for additional coverage in Canada for things like that among many other services). I've lived with so called "free health care" but you need to understand that it is not a fail safe that Obama is trying to make you believe. Canada has many problems with it, people go untreated because hospitals and doctors do not have resources to see everybody or treat them quickly enough. That is the very reason there is a movement starting to privatize some aspects of Canadian healthcare, because tax dollars just can't do it.

[rupa 2]

Who said new? The word Obama has been using is 'change'...and that one should be self explanatory by now.

O.k. I see your point, He says "Change!!!" and change he will be delivering, but change without forsight, careful estimation of the consequences, common sense and some aknowledgement of how his policies have failed in past administrations, is down right foolish. Convince me that he will not repeat the same mistakes that this great country has had to learn from in the past. Where is the foundation to his "Change", show me how it adds up to a better life for all Americans. The numbers don't add up, history has proven it. Do you really want to be a socialist nation?

It's 7 days to go and you still need convincing. There are two choices. Go with whichever one you feel has convinced you on the future you seek. If you don't think Obama is your candidate go with McCain. No one will fault you for it. But don't think that you are going to change any minds with 7 days to go.

There is a lot of information out there, newspapers, magazines, 24 hour election coverage. Both candidates have websites. If the endorsements to both candidates do not mean anything to you; If you have read every newspaper out there and updated yourself with policies of both candidates posted on their websites; 7 days to go, you should already have put in your vote or decided on your candidate, not asking to be convinced that Obama is NOT your candidate.

SO it's o.k. to plaster VJ with pro Obama threads but wrong to post a challenge to them?

There is nothing OK or wrong. You posted and I gave you my opinion. Isn't that what it's all about? Or is there a criteria for how I should have replied? You don't like my opinion, just say........next?

I just hope that all the so called un-decided's have made up their minds (either way) ....7 days to go.... is what my opinion was about.

Hey my apologies, my comment was a bit too snarky, it bugs me a little seeing the unbalance in postings on this site, it seems some days like people are blindly gunning for Obama and I'm wondering how many people would have still chosen him without all the propaganda and mainstream media coverage. Have people really thought it through, or are they being influenced by what they are being bombarded with. I appreciate your post.

[AlHayatZween 2]

i can't speak for Canadian "socialism" or health care, because i've never lived in Canada, but if you think that you are paying a lot of health care via taxes, clearly you have had the good fortune of never being uninsured in the US. the costs of health care (basic health care) are exorbitant!

i don't think anyone on the Democratic side, is advocating for free health care. of course, it can never be free. but i think what Obama and the Democrats are proposing, is to make health care more affordable. whether or not the plan they have is actually work-able, only time will tell if Obama gets elected.

as someone who has been uninsured, i don't see the Republicans ever putting health care at the top of their agenda...ever. in the Republican campaign, there is just too much rhetoric about welfare and footing the bill for lazy, inept people. and this is a complete fallacy. hard-working people are getting pinched and oftentimes suffering... not because they are lazy, but perhaps they've gone into business for themselves, perhaps they got dropped from their current insurer... circumstances vary, and by suggesting that low-cost health care is going to promote a lazy welfare state is insulting...

and just to point out: Many people that are bankrupted by soaring health costs, and they have healthcare coverage.

i don't think McCain's current ideas regarding the privatization of health care will work... and maybe Obama's plan won't work either... but at the very least, it seems to be on his agenda. i just hope, if he gets elected, he can actually follow through.

[Niels Bohr 72]

For many of us, we don't look at the propaganda.

[sly_wolf 199]

I think that this is one of the most heated elections in history and thats why there may be many topics posted. The reason behind why its so heated is because many people are fighting for change. They are fed up with all the nonsense from the past 8 years. They are also fed up with the corporations making big profits at the expense of the average guy. This includes the health care system, oil companies and the list goes on. Corporations are always going to be whining for more money even though they outsource all the jobs offshore. I work for a company that is laying off many people even though they are still making tons of money .... there is always an excuse for everything.

Sly