Stolen Papers

[sus 70]

If you are still married, and he did attempt to use the credit card, I am not so sure it is an automatic case of fraud. Was he using/commingling your resources while he was living with you? Technically, while you are STILL married, debt is joint debt, assets are joint assets until a judge declares you are divorced.

Are you sure your anger over his affair is not influencing your view?

Not correct - Debt is joint debt if it is accrued in joint - it is a completely different story if it is an account her her name with her SSN and he uses it - same thing with the phone issue.

[diadromous mermaid 36]

Well it just might not be that cut and dried, is all I am saying.

She has admitted that he contributed more to the marital estate, and it could be construed that even if it was her credit card (though I can't find where she says they had a credit card separately (might be here, can't see it), that he was satisfying/retiring any debt that was being placed on "her" card in the past, anyway.

He paid for all of his stuff, and it was his money in the bank account the whole time (though it came from his parents). He paid for the car, the phone, and college tuition, etc. but he couldn't have attained these things without my assistance and credit rating.

and

I stupidly trusted that he would take care of the accounts in both of our names. The money in our joint bank account was entirely his but now I've gotten a notice from the bank telling me that he has made charges on his debit card without sufficient funds being in the bank to cover them. Hundreds of dollars in charges, then loads of money in penalties for it. He said it was a mistake, that he's waiting for a check to clear, and then he'll close it out. Meanwhile, he had previously intimated it was all taken care of.

and

The financial situation is pretty dire right now because he took a lot of financial support with him when he left, and my Mom (whom I live with) and I are trying to figure out how to keep our heads above water because, as you know, the economic situation is terrible for just about everyone right now.

and

When it comes to finances, he was the one who went through the lion's share of money to be perfectly honest. He was the one supporting me financially, not the other way around. He actually went through quite a bit of money in this relationship, even accessing some trusts and things. So I have no intentions of trying to get anything else from him, like I said, I won't even take the few hundred left in our account.

If you are still married, and he did attempt to use the credit card, I am not so sure it is an automatic case of fraud. Was he using/commingling your resources while he was living with you? Technically, while you are STILL married, debt is joint debt, assets are joint assets until a judge declares you are divorced.

Are you sure your anger over his affair is not influencing your view?

Not correct - Debt is joint debt if it is accrued in joint - it is a completely different story if it is an account her her name with her SSN and he uses it - same thing with the phone issue.

[TheZilla 0]

In reference to the above, yes he contributed more financially to the marriage but in reality, it was his parents money, not his. Once he got a job here, he took off.

When it comes to my personal debts, he never gave me a penny toward them. I had hospital debt which I paid off myself through my interest income and help from my Mom, same goes for my credit card debt. I'm not saying he didn't pay for anything, he paid for a lot, but again, that was his parents money, not money he earned himself. I had my own credit card and took care of those charges myself. Right now it seems like his parents may be cutting him off after all this time, and it might explain his recent actions.

All I've asked him for is what he fairly owes, and I added it down to the penny off of bill statements in the interest of fairness. I asked him to pay for his own personal expenses that he left behind, the ones we had to cover when he took off, nothing more. It's not his fault my investments took the hit they did and it's not his fault I'm having trouble finding work, that's all stuff I have to suck up and deal with because of this economy. I don't want anything from him than what he fairly owes. He couldn't fit everything into his car the night he left, and I even left my porch door open so he could return and get the rest, and I added on to all of it as I came across stuff. Piles of video games and such that I could have easily sold, but I didn't.

And of course I am angry and hurt over his affair, the way he left, and his callous treatment since, but I made up my mind early on that I would just have to suck it up and do the right thing. That's all I've been trying to do is the 'right' thing, that's why I've been running all this by others. I've asked myself if I'm automatically too biased because of the situation, if I'm blowing things out of proportion because I've been hurt. I have felt confused, while most everyone around me has been telling me to 'wake up' to the kind of guy he 'really' is, I've been sitting there defending him and our relationship.

It's been over two months since he left and the only moves I've made is putting pass codes on my own accounts, putting fraud alerts on my accounts, monitoring my credit cards, and all of these sorts of things and only because of HIS questionable actions. Even after he used my SS# behind my back, I paid out to cancel the cell phone and I talked about the situation WITH HIM, I didn't just run off and call the FTC like so many people were telling me to do. All because I wanted to believe he was simply just a reckless, careless jerk and not a criminal.

Now I have no idea. It's just gone too far now and I am taking action now. I feel I've been giving him the benefit of the doubt with all of these things, and it has resulted in serious repercussions on me, including damage to my credit. I feel foolish for not acting sooner, I am acting now because I feel that if I don't, there's no telling what else is going to happen if I just sit here like I have been all this time.

[diadromous mermaid 36]

At the risk of sounding insensitive, please understand that I have empathy for the way you are feeling, on the other hand, reacting out of emotion, either in the positive or negative is not the best way to move forward.

It doesn't matter whether his parents supplied the funds he contributed to the marriage. What matters is that he contributed, and contributed more than you did. I don't know the details of your state, but in most states where equitable distribution is honored, parties in a marriage have equal right to any accumulation of the marital estate during the period they were married. Naturally, this goes for debt as well. Whatever debt accrued while the parties were married is considered a marital debt. Same goes for any increase in worth of items purchased during the marriage or interest earned during the marriage. As I said earlier, your state may handle things differently, but from the cursory look I had of New York state laws, I believe this to be true.

In that regard, aside from any unlawful access to something which had been declared *separate property* prior to the marriage, all of these matters will be dealt with in the divorce. Keep records, copious records of the status of the marital estate, and make sure that you provide your attorney a proper accounting of what has been distributed already. *Distributions* can be one party accessing funds, when the other has not. This is all commonplace.

What I find rather odd is that you are complaining about his actions, but still fail to see and fail to do anything to deal with the situation. Naturally, for one that is clinging on in the hope that the other party will *come to his senses and return* the exposure is prolonged. You say you have done all you can. Have you? Have you really done all that you can to mitigate any negative consequences of his actions? I see that you have not yet filed for divorce. That *IS* the best way to remove yourself from responsibility.

Until you declare, in the legal sense, that you marriage is in a terminal state, you are enabling his access to the marital estate. After all, until an judge declares that he is no longer entitled to share in the estate, you can only get madder and madder about it and try to keep records so that it can be sorted out in the details of the divorce judgment, however, if by that time he has nothing left of what he has helped himself to, then you will have a difficult time collecting .

In reference to the above, yes he contributed more financially to the marriage but in reality, it was his parents money, not his. Once he got a job here, he took off.

When it comes to my personal debts, he never gave me a penny toward them. I had hospital debt which I paid off myself through my interest income and help from my Mom, same goes for my credit card debt. I'm not saying he didn't pay for anything, he paid for a lot, but again, that was his parents money, not money he earned himself. I had my own credit card and took care of those charges myself. Right now it seems like his parents may be cutting him off after all this time, and it might explain his recent actions.

All I've asked him for is what he fairly owes, and I added it down to the penny off of bill statements in the interest of fairness. I asked him to pay for his own personal expenses that he left behind, the ones we had to cover when he took off, nothing more. It's not his fault my investments took the hit they did and it's not his fault I'm having trouble finding work, that's all stuff I have to suck up and deal with because of this economy. I don't want anything from him than what he fairly owes. He couldn't fit everything into his car the night he left, and I even left my porch door open so he could return and get the rest, and I added on to all of it as I came across stuff. Piles of video games and such that I could have easily sold, but I didn't.

And of course I am angry and hurt over his affair, the way he left, and his callous treatment since, but I made up my mind early on that I would just have to suck it up and do the right thing. That's all I've been trying to do is the 'right' thing, that's why I've been running all this by others. I've asked myself if I'm automatically too biased because of the situation, if I'm blowing things out of proportion because I've been hurt. I have felt confused, while most everyone around me has been telling me to 'wake up' to the kind of guy he 'really' is, I've been sitting there defending him and our relationship.

It's been over two months since he left and the only moves I've made is putting pass codes on my own accounts, putting fraud alerts on my accounts, monitoring my credit cards, and all of these sorts of things and only because of HIS questionable actions. Even after he used my SS# behind my back, I paid out to cancel the cell phone and I talked about the situation WITH HIM, I didn't just run off and call the FTC like so many people were telling me to do. All because I wanted to believe he was simply just a reckless, careless jerk and not a criminal.

Now I have no idea. It's just gone too far now and I am taking action now. I feel I've been giving him the benefit of the doubt with all of these things, and it has resulted in serious repercussions on me, including damage to my credit. I feel foolish for not acting sooner, I am acting now because I feel that if I don't, there's no telling what else is going to happen if I just sit here like I have been all this time.

[sus 70]

Now I have no idea. It's just gone too far now and I am taking action now. I feel I've been giving him the benefit of the doubt with all of these things, and it has resulted in serious repercussions on me, including damage to my credit. I feel foolish for not acting sooner, I am acting now because I feel that if I don't, there's no telling what else is going to happen if I just sit here like I have been all this time.

I hope you take the right steps that you need to protect yourself - you have been given lots of advice on here - bottom line to it is that you have to sift through it and apply what is best for your own situation. I know how hard this is to cope with and I wish you luck.

diadromous mermaid - Are you an attorney? Because your post really walks a line of being legal advice - and incorrect advice at that. There are specific laws in each state, and marital property / debt / assets and family law varies VASTLY in different states - what you stated might be correct in some states, but not in all -

[TheZilla 0]

There were no debts accrued during the actual marriage. My debts came beforehand, and his debts (UK student loans, etc) were his beforehand as well. There really is no 'property' to speak of here, we're doing the simple dissolution/irreconcilable differences divorce.

The divorce itself? Originally, he picked up the papers from the courthouse, sent me my portion (including a financial/asset information sheet) and wanted me to fill it all out, get it notarized, and send all the originals to him so he could file alone. I told him that was unacceptable. I told him that I would fill out my portion, and send him copies and that he should send me copies of the papers he omitted (his portion). That way we would both have full copies of the whole thing, and we could file the originals together.

I was advised that even though it was a simple dissolution, I should not file anything or sign anything until I went over it with legal help. I called a bunch of local lawyers but none offer free consultations and I can't swing their initial consultation fees. I was given the number for a community law program and have an appointment next week . As it stands, it seems he may have actually picked up more than enough paperwork, in this county we might not even be required to go in for a court date or anything. I am hoping that is the case, I am hoping that we can get the papers filed and that I will not have to see him ever again.

I want this over and done with, believe me. Of course I still have mixed feelings and all sorts of stuff, but I feel like whatever feelings I have are for the person I THOUGHT he was, not the person he is. I don't want him to come back any more, not after all of this. I still mourn the life I thought I was going to have and it's going to hurt for awhile, but I've accepted that it's gone and I have to build my own future alone now.

I don't feel like I am reacting out of emotion at all. I have waited all of this time and have tried so hard to find middle ground and be cooperative and civil with him in the interest of just getting all of this sorted quickly. When I've given him time, I've found out that he has done all these underhanded things with that time. Right now I feel like I have been taken advantage of, and I feel like he might be doing it because expects me to take it, do you understand what I mean?

[diadromous mermaid 36]

sus,

Where in the following statement, do you not see that I cautione the OP that state laws vary?

I don't know the details of your state, but in most states where equitable distribution is honored, parties in a marriage have equal right to any accumulation of the marital estate during the period they were married. Naturally, this goes for debt as well. Whatever debt accrued while the parties were married is considered a marital debt. Same goes for any increase in worth of items purchased during the marriage or interest earned during the marriage. As I said earlier, your state may handle things differently, but from the cursory look I had of New York state laws, I believe this to be true.

Now I have no idea. It's just gone too far now and I am taking action now. I feel I've been giving him the benefit of the doubt with all of these things, and it has resulted in serious repercussions on me, including damage to my credit. I feel foolish for not acting sooner, I am acting now because I feel that if I don't, there's no telling what else is going to happen if I just sit here like I have been all this time.

I hope you take the right steps that you need to protect yourself - you have been given lots of advice on here - bottom line to it is that you have to sift through it and apply what is best for your own situation. I know how hard this is to cope with and I wish you luck.

diadromous mermaid - Are you an attorney? Because your post really walks a line of being legal advice - and incorrect advice at that. There are specific laws in each state, and marital property / debt / assets and family law varies VASTLY in different states - what you stated might be correct in some states, but not in all -

[diadromous mermaid 36]

There were no debts accrued during the marriage ? Then what is all of this commentary about cell phone bills, cable internet bills, and bank overdrafts? Now, once again for sus' benefit, let me be clear. I am not certain of your state's specific laws, but until parties declare that they are no longer responsible for each other's debts, there's a chance more debts can be accrued.

There were no debts accrued during the actual marriage. My debts came beforehand, and his debts (UK student loans, etc) were his beforehand as well. There really is no 'property' to speak of here, we're doing the simple dissolution/irreconcilable differences divorce.

The divorce itself? Originally, he picked up the papers from the courthouse, sent me my portion (including a financial/asset information sheet) and wanted me to fill it all out, get it notarized, and send all the originals to him so he could file alone. I told him that was unacceptable. I told him that I would fill out my portion, and send him copies and that he should send me copies of the papers he omitted (his portion). That way we would both have full copies of the whole thing, and we could file the originals together.

I was advised that even though it was a simple dissolution, I should not file anything or sign anything until I went over it with legal help. I called a bunch of local lawyers but none offer free consultations and I can't swing their initial consultation fees. I was given the number for a community law program and have an appointment next week . As it stands, it seems he may have actually picked up more than enough paperwork, in this county we might not even be required to go in for a court date or anything. I am hoping that is the case, I am hoping that we can get the papers filed and that I will not have to see him ever again.

I want this over and done with, believe me. Of course I still have mixed feelings and all sorts of stuff, but I feel like whatever feelings I have are for the person I THOUGHT he was, not the person he is. I don't want him to come back any more, not after all of this. I still mourn the life I thought I was going to have and it's going to hurt for awhile, but I've accepted that it's gone and I have to build my own future alone now.

I don't feel like I am reacting out of emotion at all. I have waited all of this time and have tried so hard to find middle ground and be cooperative and civil with him in the interest of just getting all of this sorted quickly. When I've given him time, I've found out that he has done all these underhanded things with that time. Right now I feel like I have been taken advantage of, and I feel like he might be doing it because expects me to take it, do you understand what I mean?

[TheZilla 0]

There were no debts accrued during the marriage ? Then what is all of this commentary about cell phone bills, cable internet bills, and bank overdrafts? Now, once again for sus' benefit, let me be clear. I am not certain of your state's specific laws, but until parties declare that they are no longer responsible for each other's debts, there's a chance more debts can be accrued.

There were no debts accrued during the actual marriage. My debts came beforehand, and his debts (UK student loans, etc) were his beforehand as well. There really is no 'property' to speak of here, we're doing the simple dissolution/irreconcilable differences divorce.

The divorce itself? Originally, he picked up the papers from the courthouse, sent me my portion (including a financial/asset information sheet) and wanted me to fill it all out, get it notarized, and send all the originals to him so he could file alone. I told him that was unacceptable. I told him that I would fill out my portion, and send him copies and that he should send me copies of the papers he omitted (his portion). That way we would both have full copies of the whole thing, and we could file the originals together.

I was advised that even though it was a simple dissolution, I should not file anything or sign anything until I went over it with legal help. I called a bunch of local lawyers but none offer free consultations and I can't swing their initial consultation fees. I was given the number for a community law program and have an appointment next week . As it stands, it seems he may have actually picked up more than enough paperwork, in this county we might not even be required to go in for a court date or anything. I am hoping that is the case, I am hoping that we can get the papers filed and that I will not have to see him ever again.

I want this over and done with, believe me. Of course I still have mixed feelings and all sorts of stuff, but I feel like whatever feelings I have are for the person I THOUGHT he was, not the person he is. I don't want him to come back any more, not after all of this. I still mourn the life I thought I was going to have and it's going to hurt for awhile, but I've accepted that it's gone and I have to build my own future alone now.

I don't feel like I am reacting out of emotion at all. I have waited all of this time and have tried so hard to find middle ground and be cooperative and civil with him in the interest of just getting all of this sorted quickly. When I've given him time, I've found out that he has done all these underhanded things with that time. Right now I feel like I have been taken advantage of, and I feel like he might be doing it because expects me to take it, do you understand what I mean?

I already explained this. There is no debt owed to a company or business, I paid out of my own pocket to cover all the bills my ex racked up in my name to keep my credit from getting messed up more than it already had been. What he owes, he owes me and my Mom personally now, not that we'll ever see a penny of it. I really don't think I have any recourse if he refuses to pay those debts because I was the one who trusted him and took accounts out in my name for him, and my Mom did too.

There were never any joint credit cards. I was the only one with credit cards and I never added him. I don't care what state you live in, marriage doesn't entitle your spouse to go using your credit cards behind your back, without your authorization. That is fraud. Same goes for the social security number.

[diadromous mermaid 36]

Debt is debt, whether it is to a company or elswhere. What I am trying, clearly unsuccessfully, to explain is that while you are still married, whatever either of you buys or charges or obliges to, be it by you or by him, is considered a "debt" acquired during the marriage and would therefore be subject to distribution in the divorce. Same goes for any assets. I am over-simplifying this in order to make my point, I know, but I sense you don't quite grasp the notion of what commingling in marriage entails.

Let me give you an example. Say you had $4000 in the bank account; an account that both of you have been using, depositing to, etc. That bank account, for all intents and purposes is not considered separate. In order for it to be considered separate, the account would have had to have been kept for use by "one party ojnly". That goes for deposits made to it, and for payments made from it. If funds from a separate bank account are used to satisfy debts that both of you accrued, let's say for paying a utility payment, then the court *could* find that the account is really not separate.

You keep referring to what he spent, as his debt and what you spend as yours. That isn't necessarily the typical way a court would view the activity in a marriage. That can be the case after you start the process to terminate the marriage, however.

Have you determined that he did use your credit card? I thought the only thing you had proof of was that he had used a social security number of yours in order to continue a contract. Not that this is not wrong, mind you. But that is a separate issue.

There were no debts accrued during the marriage ? Then what is all of this commentary about cell phone bills, cable internet bills, and bank overdrafts? Now, once again for sus' benefit, let me be clear. I am not certain of your state's specific laws, but until parties declare that they are no longer responsible for each other's debts, there's a chance more debts can be accrued.

There were no debts accrued during the actual marriage. My debts came beforehand, and his debts (UK student loans, etc) were his beforehand as well. There really is no 'property' to speak of here, we're doing the simple dissolution/irreconcilable differences divorce.

The divorce itself? Originally, he picked up the papers from the courthouse, sent me my portion (including a financial/asset information sheet) and wanted me to fill it all out, get it notarized, and send all the originals to him so he could file alone. I told him that was unacceptable. I told him that I would fill out my portion, and send him copies and that he should send me copies of the papers he omitted (his portion). That way we would both have full copies of the whole thing, and we could file the originals together.

I was advised that even though it was a simple dissolution, I should not file anything or sign anything until I went over it with legal help. I called a bunch of local lawyers but none offer free consultations and I can't swing their initial consultation fees. I was given the number for a community law program and have an appointment next week . As it stands, it seems he may have actually picked up more than enough paperwork, in this county we might not even be required to go in for a court date or anything. I am hoping that is the case, I am hoping that we can get the papers filed and that I will not have to see him ever again.

I want this over and done with, believe me. Of course I still have mixed feelings and all sorts of stuff, but I feel like whatever feelings I have are for the person I THOUGHT he was, not the person he is. I don't want him to come back any more, not after all of this. I still mourn the life I thought I was going to have and it's going to hurt for awhile, but I've accepted that it's gone and I have to build my own future alone now.

I don't feel like I am reacting out of emotion at all. I have waited all of this time and have tried so hard to find middle ground and be cooperative and civil with him in the interest of just getting all of this sorted quickly. When I've given him time, I've found out that he has done all these underhanded things with that time. Right now I feel like I have been taken advantage of, and I feel like he might be doing it because expects me to take it, do you understand what I mean?

I already explained this. There is no debt owed to a company or business, I paid out of my own pocket to cover all the bills my ex racked up in my name to keep my credit from getting messed up more than it already had been. What he owes, he owes me and my Mom personally now, not that we'll ever see a penny of it. I really don't think I have any recourse if he refuses to pay those debts because I was the one who trusted him and took accounts out in my name for him, and my Mom did too.

There were never any joint credit cards. I was the only one with credit cards and I never added him. I don't care what state you live in, marriage doesn't entitle your spouse to go using your credit cards behind your back, without your authorization. That is fraud. Same goes for the social security number.