Things Liberals Believe in

[Peikko 1,575]

Are you arguing your point or mine? Where did muslim extremism come into this?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

There has already been an example of the US military repressing US Citizens - the internment of 120,000 Japanese/Asian Americans in WW2.

[Peikko 1,575]

What I don't understand is why this is so difficult to admit is possible, given a very limited set of extreme circumstances.

[*Robert* 2]

I guess my question here is whether you honestly think that we have moved beyond fringe politics, that its totally incomprehensible that a situation could arise (given the right circumstances) for a dictatorship to arise even in this country and for the military to be sucked into it.

I don't think it is possible for a dictatorship to ever arise in this country either, nor for the military to get sucked in.

Again - I don't think there's any reason to suppose that the US military (or at least elements of it) could not be duped into harming US citizens on the basis that doing so is deemed in the national interest.

And I totally agree with you.

Lets face it... on thing that sets our country apart from any other, is....

Rednecks!!!

You know, the ones that cling to their weapons and religion. Good luck going in after them!

[Empress of Groovy 373]

I believe in:

1. cupcakes

2. the sanctity of ground coffee

3. neatsfoot oil

4. phallic rock formations, but only those found in the Orient

5. the rooster on the French national soccer team's shirt

[Peikko 1,575]

Ms Agnes, do you have hooves?

[nowhereman 1]

Are you arguing your point or mine? Where did muslim extremism come into this?

I'm trying to explain to you that you can't compare what happened in WWI to today because it's apples & oranges. Also in Response to both you and Paul I am not saying that our military is incapable of comitting horrible acts... to make this assertion would be absurd. What I am saying that our soldiers have inherently different beliefs than most other countries because of the values that most Americans grow up with & that the culture of our military is also different than most other militaries. We do have the notion of right & wrong, lawful & unlawful orders, etc. Most non-western militaries don't have these ideals.

Again look up "Army Values" and you will see what I'm taking about... I don't think Al Qaeda has similar values.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I guess my question here is whether you honestly think that we have moved beyond fringe politics, that its totally incomprehensible that a situation could arise (given the right circumstances) for a dictatorship to arise even in this country and for the military to be sucked into it.

I don't think it is possible for a dictatorship to ever arise in this country either, nor for the military to get sucked in.

Well again - I think history is against that argument. The Weimar Republic of Germany had one of the most democratically respected constitutions ever written - it took just a few years for it to be torn up and completely done away with.

Again - I don't think there's any reason to suppose that the US military (or at least elements of it) could not be duped into harming US citizens on the basis that doing so is deemed in the national interest.

And I totally agree with you.

Lets face it... on thing that sets our country apart from any other, is....

Rednecks!!!

You know, the ones that cling to their weapons and religion. Good luck going in after them!

Well I don't think its rednecks that are the problem - as much as the fact that we get mediocre politicians who pander to mediocrity. Its interesting that education was mentioned earlier as one of the things that separates modern soldiers from those of the past. That's true to an extent - but then why do we have politicians who push arguments that higher education is a bastion of sinister liberalism and that higher educated people are elitists?

Edited October 23, 2008 by Paul Daniels

[Empress of Groovy 373]

Ms Agnes, do you have hooves?

Not yet, but I'm working on it!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Are you arguing your point or mine? Where did muslim extremism come into this?

I'm trying to explain to you that you can't compare what happened in WWI to today because it's apples & oranges. Also in Response to both you and Paul I am not saying that our military is incapable of comitting horrible acts... to make this assertion would be absurd. What I am saying that our soldiers have inherently different beliefs than most other countries because of the values that most Americans grow up with & that the culture of our military is also different than most other militaries. We do have the notion of right & wrong, lawful & unlawful orders, etc. Most non-western militaries don't have these ideals.

Again look up "Army Values" and you will see what I'm taking about... I don't think Al Qaeda has similar values.

But then this kind of contradicts what you were saying about Abu Ghraib. There may well have been incompetent or weak leadership in that situation, but going by what you said earlier shouldn't the individual soldiers have known better? What happened to the individual soldiers' innate moral compass?

Edited October 23, 2008 by Paul Daniels

[Peikko 1,575]

What you are saying, is what I asked, is there something specific about the US military that sets it apart from other military institutions. Now you are saying, that indeed there is. Nevertheless I don't think this notion of a moral compass, a strong sense of 'right and wrong' is a very good argument - I have explained my reasons why hence the allusion to the actions of the foot soldiers of the German armies during the two world wars. These men were moral, upright and understood justice and from a very long standing culture and yet they were still persuaded to do things in the name of good that were absolutely abominable.

The lawful and unlawful orders is the intersting question. My question to you is, how does a foot soldier determins an unlawful order? If a unit was presented with a situation where they were told lies that were presented as truth, how would they see through that?

I still don't see what this has to do with muslims by the way.

[nowhereman 1]

Are you arguing your point or mine? Where did muslim extremism come into this?

I'm trying to explain to you that you can't compare what happened in WWI to today because it's apples & oranges. Also in Response to both you and Paul I am not saying that our military is incapable of comitting horrible acts... to make this assertion would be absurd. What I am saying that our soldiers have inherently different beliefs than most other countries because of the values that most Americans grow up with & that the culture of our military is also different than most other militaries. We do have the notion of right & wrong, lawful & unlawful orders, etc. Most non-western militaries don't have these ideals.

Again look up "Army Values" and you will see what I'm taking about... I don't think Al Qaeda has similar values.

But then this kind of contradicts what you were saying about Abu Ghraib. There may well have been incompetent or weak leadership in that situation, but going by what you said earlier shouldn't the individual soldiers have known better? What happened to the individual soldiers' innate moral compass?

They were a bunch of dumbass rednecks from West Virginia

[Peikko 1,575]

Ms Agnes, do you have hooves?

Not yet, but I'm working on it!

Neatsfoot oil will render them extremely shiny should you achieve your goal

[Empress of Groovy 373]

Ms Agnes, do you have hooves?

Not yet, but I'm working on it!

Neatsfoot oil will render them extremely shiny should you achieve your goal

Indeed! I place my faith in neatsfoot oil, personal philosophies be damned!

[nowhereman 1]

What you are saying, is what I asked, is there something specific about the US military that sets it apart from other military institutions. Now you are saying, that indeed there is. Nevertheless I don't think this notion of a moral compass, a strong sense of 'right and wrong' is a very good argument - I have explained my reasons why hence the allusion to the actions of the foot soldiers of the German armies during the two world wars. These men were moral, upright and understood justice and from a very long standing culture and yet they were still persuaded to do things in the name of good that were absolutely abominable.

The lawful and unlawful orders is the intersting question. My question to you is, how does a foot soldier determins an unlawful order? If a unit was presented with a situation where they were told lies that were presented as truth, how would they see through that?

I still don't see what this has to do with muslims by the way.

Be careful, I am not making derogatory comments about Muslims... I served a year in Iraq & some of them are friends of mine to this day. I'm not at home or I would give you the name of an author that explains what I am trying to say a lot better than I apparently am (the author essentially argued that cultural differences is one of the main reasons why large scale wars happen today). Western culture vs muslim culture is the main conflict we're dealing with right now & that's my I mentioned extreme muslims (i.e. terrorists).

As for the second part we agree that American troops are capable of committing horrible acts, but we disagree on the idea that our military is inherently different than many other militaries. All I can say is that I've served 21 years in the Army & yea I've seen some things I disagreed with but overall I'm proud of our military & although its far from perfect it's the best in the world.