YESTERDAY MY HONEY SHOULD ARRIVE, but he did not!!!!

[JenT 0]

At any rate, marriage under a K-1 is no longer possible. The only hope for the OP now is marriage abroad and bringing him into the US as a spouse, not a fiance.

Jen

[chiquita 0]

...If she filed a K3 she would have had to provide a legal marriage certificate, but since it was religious only, there is none.

There most certainly is. A marriage license is required and the marriage certificate is signed by the minister/priest/whomever is officiating the ceremony.

As far as your suggestion that a religious ceremony is not valid.... in the yes of many who believe, it is the only one that DOES matter.

I never said it wasn't VALID. It some countries there is no paperwork done.

For many people the regious ceremnony is before God. That does not mean it is registered with the courts. God is a higher authority. We just now have a lot of legalize added in this time and age.

There is a BIG difference. That is why I said it is a catch 22 situation. I agree it would be in the best interest of the couple to get the marriage legal in the country where they had theie religious ceremony.

However, I think our government needs to reconize the difference. Instead what do they do??? Treat the immigrant as if he or she is a criminal. OMG, how absurd is that???? Of course they will get married here and then it will become legal.

Wearing a ring is considered being legally married? I am just so shocked at all of this ignorance. America tolerate and understanding???? The joke is on you dear immigrant!!!!!!!!

[chiquita 0]

That is sooooooooo stupid...a religious ceremony is not legal. A catch 22 situation and the CBP gets to decide the law!!!!! If she filed a K3 she would have had to provide a legal marriage certificate, but since it was religious only, there is none. And the USA is supposed to be the best country in the world yet they can't figure out the difference between legal and relgious ceremonies?? What happened to separation between religion and state??? GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ LOUISE

In many countries, religious ceremonies are, in fact, treated as de facto legal ceremonies.

The U.S. is not "supposed to be the best country in the world," but as a sovereign nation it does have the power to police its own borders. And the CBP is not, as I mentioned earlier, charged with distinguishing types of wedding ceremonies. If they suspect that a legally binding wedding ceremony, OF ANY TYPE, has taken place, they have the power to deny entry to the K-1 holder. Again, religious ceremonies are legally binding in many countries, which is why Zyggy and others here have often advised K-1 holders to have religious blessings or ceremonies AFTER a legal marriage in the States on the K-1.

Of course every country has the right to protect its borders. I didn't know a man wanting to be with his beloved was someone Americans needed to be protected against. I thought we needed to be protected against terrorist. I missed that one.

If they suspect??? So they are judge, jury and hangman all in one.

It the religious ceremonmy was legal, then there would be paperwork to back it up would there not? There are many ceremonies before God and then there are ceremonies that are made legal in the eyes of whatever country the people live in. I am afraid this country, which is made up almost of all immigrants, is serously lacking in religious understanding.

Many religions prohibit a couple to be together and therfore the need for the religious ceremomy. Our government requires for the couple to meet in person. What a dilema indeed!

[babybunny 2]

I don't know if I am helping, or just speaking out of my a$$, but I want so much to help.

Speaking out of your what???? This is the first time I've seen it spelled this way. HAHAHA. I really needed that laugh. THANKS!!!

Thanks for the website!!!

Seeing what I read.. it appears that the CBP agent was tipped off by seeing a wedding band. Basically by he was seeing a wedding band that indicated marriage, but the alien was stating that he was not married.

Actions speak louder than words. The act of wearing the band outweighed what he was saying, because people will lie to see their own ends... At that point in time, CBP was going to do what ever it took to find out the truth... When he fianlly admitted that he was married (even though it was not a legal ceremony), the damage was done.. He was now caught in a material misrepresentation...

I witnessed a very similar circumstance when I was a CBP agent. Some came to the POE with a K-1 visa, stated they were not married, but had a wedding band on. At that time, the officer and his supervisor got her to admit that she did have a wedding ceremony. She mistakenly assumed that a religious wedding in Canada was not a legal ceremony... (it is). But even if it wasn't, it wouldn't have mattered. She still would have been sent back home...

That is sooooooooo stupid...a religious ceremony is not legal. A catch 22 situation and the CBP gets to decide the law!!!!! If she filed a K3 she would have had to provide a legal marriage certificate, but since it was religious only, there is none. And the USA is supposed to be the best country in the world yet they can't figure out the difference between legal and relgious ceremonies?? What happened to separation between religion and state??? GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ LOUISE

guilty until you prove your innocents..

would it have made a diffrence if he had BOTH wedding bands?

I am saying he is comming to marry. so if he had both wedding bands would he still say he is married?

[babybunny 2]

That is sooooooooo stupid...a religious ceremony is not legal. A catch 22 situation and the CBP gets to decide the law!!!!! If she filed a K3 she would have had to provide a legal marriage certificate, but since it was religious only, there is none. And the USA is supposed to be the best country in the world yet they can't figure out the difference between legal and relgious ceremonies?? What happened to separation between religion and state??? GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ LOUISE

In many countries, religious ceremonies are, in fact, treated as de facto legal ceremonies.

The U.S. is not "supposed to be the best country in the world," but as a sovereign nation it does have the power to police its own borders. And the CBP is not, as I mentioned earlier, charged with distinguishing types of wedding ceremonies. If they suspect that a legally binding wedding ceremony, OF ANY TYPE, has taken place, they have the power to deny entry to the K-1 holder. Again, religious ceremonies are legally binding in many countries, which is why Zyggy and others here have often advised K-1 holders to have religious blessings or ceremonies AFTER a legal marriage in the States on the K-1.

Of course every country has the right to protect its borders. I didn't know a man wanting to be with his beloved was someone Americans needed to be protected against. I thought we needed to be protected against terrorist. I missed that one.

If they suspect??? So they are judge, jury and hangman all in one.

It the religious ceremonmy was legal, then there would be paperwork to back it up would there not? There are many ceremonies before God and then there are ceremonies that are made legal in the eyes of whatever country the people live in. I am afraid this country, which is made up almost of all immigrants, is serously lacking in religious understanding.

Many religions prohibit a couple to be together and therfore the need for the religious ceremomy. Our government requires for the couple to meet in person. What a dilema indeed!

uhmmm - I agree. I dont know why the G.Dubya-ment

has to keep a family member APART! They have the Family life act.

but its usless. because, bottom line is they tell you " wahts- wahts"

this banishment is #######. ok the man said he is married but since it was not real he is being hung out to dry.

Axe murders- < she gets suspended sentace because, she is too pretty to be in jail > ultimately gets less sentance than what his man was issued. 5 year bann. from his WIFE/Fiancee!!!

even those same murders get Parole.

[chiquita 0]

[

guilty until you prove your innocents..

would it have made a diffrence if he had BOTH wedding bands?

I am saying he is comming to marry. so if he had both wedding bands would he still say he is married?

So true, we must remember the immigrant has no rights, so lets lock him up without an interpreter until he says what we want! We suspect do we convict!!! No need for a legal document in this case...the joke is on the immigrant.

[babybunny 2]

they could have turned him around and made them re- file.

but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[diadromous mermaid 36]

guilty until you prove your innocents..

would it have made a diffrence if he had BOTH wedding bands?

I am saying he is comming to marry. so if he had both wedding bands would he still say he is married?

So true, we must remember the immigrant has no rights, so lets lock him up without an interpreter until he says what we want! We suspect do we convict!!! No need for a legal document in this case...the joke is on the immigrant.

This is ridiculous discourse, and it is leading nowhere. Chiquita, the border agents are given discretion to make determinations if they witness an entrant using an improper document to enter the country. Much the same as they do when people attempt to enter the USA on VWP, where they really have situations in their lives that would suggest that they might not be intending to elave. In either event, the entrant is not an immigrant, not if he has no immigrant visa. So to suggest that an "immigrant" has no rights is inaccurate. Immigrants once within the borders of this country are protected by the laws just as US citizens are. In the event that an immigrant is the victim of a crime, the laws protect him.

In this case, the OPs fiancé was attempting to enter on a non-immigrant visa (as a fiancé). He had not entered (successfully) with inspection. Unfortunately, his demeanour, his statements, and even his custom of wearing a wedding band refuted the document he was carrying. Regrettably, he failed to overcome the presumption on the part of the POE agent. Not unlike those who fail when visiting.

To make this a little simpler, although not exact, lets hypothetically consider a visitor coming to the USA. We all recognise and expect that a visitor must prove ties to his homeland and prove that he intends to leave at the end of his visit; we all understand that unless a visitor successfully overcomes the presumption that he/she will not leave that they will not be allowed to enter. Why is not possible for you to recognise that "overcoming presumption" also is at hand here?

Edited June 5, 2006 by diadromous mermaid

[meauxna 15]

If they suspect??? So they are judge, jury and hangman all in one.

Yes, the CPB is all of those things.

The problem with all the discussion of what America should be etc etc etc is that right this minute, it is what it is. There are rules in place (aka 'laws') and if we want our result, we follow the rules. Coming from the opposite side of the arguement from you, I could chafe at the idea that my gov't "makes me" be married to my partner in order to bring him to live in the US with me. The rules did not/do not allow for that, so I "had to" get married to accomplish my goal/get the benefit offered.

The rules are clearly spelled out to be fair to the majority, not to take into account you personal moral stance. I've read of how other couples have faced the dilemma of the foreign fiance entering as a K-1 but not wanting to live together before they are married---it can be done.

I think you are asking for too narrow an exception to be made, and that is just not the American Way.

uhmmm - I agree. I dont know why the G.Dubya-ment

has to keep a family member APART! They have the Family life act.

but its usless. because, bottom line is they tell you " wahts- wahts"

this banishment is #######. ok the man said he is married but since it was not real he is being hung out to dry.

Axe murders- < she gets suspended sentace because, she is too pretty to be in jail > ultimately gets less sentance than what his man was issued. 5 year bann. from his WIFE/Fiancee!!!

even those same murders get Parole.

He's not hung out to dry. He's not imprisoned. He isn't even barred from re-fiing. And, his "wife"/"fiancee" isn't being kept from him.

It's not ideal, but as I just said, there are rules. If you want to win, you play by them.

Maybe there should be some sort of permanent warning on VJ about this (or maybe it's there and I never saw it). It has come up over and over again. The issue caused me a fair amount of angst last year because we did something similar. That NOLO book does say it's no problem to have a religious ceremony, which is clearly untrue. Maybe there could be a pinned thread about some of the very avoidable pitfalls that have occurred, especially if it has happened to more than one VJ member...

hiya maya

I know that there are a number of people at VJ who will consistantly bring up this warning when someone posts about it. As you can imagine, it's not a very popular position to take and I've been shouted down, name called and chased off for making that, or other unpopular observations. Point is, no amount of warning is going to overcome that deep desire to "get what we want".

You're proof that it can be done. I'm sure thousands have done it. The difference is, you don't go to the border and announce that you're "married" when you are not. The POE is the final check & people do lots of crazy stupid things right up to that moment, including giving the passport+visa to a girlfriend who looks very similar, getting married etc.

By this point, I'm more interested in how gh & company will overcome this; can this petition/visa be salvaged, or is it a re-do + waiver?

[Together4ever 1]

Prepare yourselves, I'm feeling testy these days. I think this thread needs to die. Those of us with beneficiaries in the ME/NA face a wee bit different world then those who do not. Now I know our "resident experts" will poo poo this, but until you stand in the shoes, well just leave it already. This thread will never be satisified.

[diadromous mermaid 36]

Prepare yourselves, I'm feeling testy these days. I think this thread needs to die. Those of us with beneficiaries in the ME/NA face a wee bit different world then those who do not. Now I know our "resident experts" will poo poo this, but until you stand in the shoes, well just leave it already. This thread will never be satisified.

I disagree. I believe this thread has been immensely helpful to many, and although it might be hard to swallow that certain aliens face more scrutiny at times in the process, sadly, it is a consequence of the world we live in.

[meauxna 15]

Prepare yourselves, I'm feeling testy these days. I think this thread needs to die. Those of us with beneficiaries in the ME/NA face a wee bit different world then those who do not. Now I know our "resident experts" will poo poo this, but until you stand in the shoes, well just leave it already. This thread will never be satisified.

Why should someone be allowed to post mis-information just because it's in a regional forum? How much *more* do you want to isolate yourselves? The rules are generally uniform; the stuff I know applies to you as much as it did to me. And, believe it or not, I follow stories like this for all kinds of countries, because I have an interest. There are lots of regional oddities, and the experiences of others can benefit you, too.

And isn't that the ultimate race card, to say to me that because I'm not ME/NA I don't get to have a say in the conversation? That my information or knowledge is useless to you?

btw, I agree that the thread should die, but for different reasons.

[chiquita 0]

The fact of the situation is the man was detained for wearing a ring!!!!

Then was denied to have an interpreter after asking for one.

He was put in jail for over a day until he was so worn out and scared he confessed to what they wanted to hear??.

Was told he would be hung up if he discussed with his fiance what the problem was on the phone.

This is the American way? OMG.

Ok ok so he has no American rights...

BUT WHAT ABOUT HIS HUMAN RIGHTS???

Does he have none of those either???

To me that is the WHOLE issue of this thread.

HUMAN DIGNITY AND RESPECT

Of which this man did not receive from our governemnt employees.

The petiton was approved by USCIS with the knowledge of a religious ceremony, the CO issued the visa with the knowledge of a religious ceremomey.

Yet at the POE, he was detained for a ring???

Doesn't POE know what religion is? It is a personal relationship between a human being and their God. Does that have to be legalized???

Looks like that is the trend to me. If that is so, why does't our governemnt get on the same page with this issue? Because it appears neither department knows what the other is doing.

If this thread dies, it will be so sad for all those K couples who want to live their life according to their religious beliefs.

Please all the K couples...spread the word in all the forums and groups you participate with. This is the only way to protect against this happening.

The biggest problem with this thread (IMHO) is those who are so harsh and lack of compassion by a few who have posted. There are ways to give out information without being so critical. I know I got so angry over some of the postings I just let it all out!!! I was so angry over how things were said. I am cooled down but boy please try to sofen the reality of the advice. This is such a stressful situation to be in.

And we are looking for answers not critisim.

chi

[chiquita 0]

By this point, I'm more interested in how gh & company will overcome this; can this petition/visa be salvaged, or is it a re-do + waiver?

Yes, I am very interested in GH outcome as well. I am hoping it can be resolved quickly, but knowing how the governemnt works I really doubt it.

[diadromous mermaid 36]

The fact of the situation is the man was detained for wearing a ring!!!!

and unfortunately stating he was married, and carrying an inappropriate document

Then was denied to have an interpreter after asking for one.

He was put in jail for over a day until he was so worn out and scared he confessed to what they wanted to hear??.

Was told he would be hung up if he discussed with his fiance what the problem was on the phone.

I'm not sure that after the POE had determined that misrepresentation had already occurred he'd be afforded these opportunities. I guess that is a good question for an immigration attorney.

To me that is the WHOLE issue of this thread.

HUMAN DIGNITY AND RESPECT

Of which this man did not receive from our governemnt employees.

We don't know that he wasn't offered dignity prior to the point when they determined that he'd violated the terms of the visa. After that he refused to sign a paper. We don't know how or if he was flustered, or annoyed, we simply don't know.

The petiton was approved by USCIS with the knowledge of a religious ceremony, the CO issued the visa with the knowledge of a religious ceremomey.

It's already been suggested that there is ample time after a visa is issued for any alien, so inclined, to actually marry. Not that the OPs fiance did, but there was amplet ime to and how would a POE agent know for sure that it hadn't been done?

The biggest problem with this thread (IMHO) is those who are so harsh and lack of compassion by a few who have posted. There are ways to give out information without being so critical. I know I got so angry over some of the postings I just let it all out!!! I was so angry over how things were said. I am cooled down but boy please try to sofen the reality of the advice. This is such a stressful situation to be in.

And we are looking for answers not critisim.

chi

I haven't seen much criticism of the couple involved on this thread at all! I've seen a heck of a lot of criticism of the government agents of CBP and of members of VJ who are trying to aid in inspiring goldenheart to get some clear, unemotional immigration advice.