McCain campaign promises to cut Medicare and Medicaid budgets by $1.3 TRILLION

[SpiritAlight 1]

There may be two things holding back universal health care in the U.S.

1. USians think socialist means communist....and they are frightened.

2. Money spent on "the war effort" (basically occupying various places on the planet to make sure it does what the U.S. wants/needs), can be allocated to healthcare for the people. The people think that that would "harm our freedoms" and so they are frightened.

"He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither."

Well its safe to say that we probably aren't going to get any sort of healthcare reform in the next term - with the economy the way it is, not to mention the expensive wars that we're still paying for, there's nothing left.

I suspect it may take one term of office (at the very least) to reverse some of the damage that the current administration has done.

It makes one want to cry doesn't it?

So close and yet so far.

What we needed (and need) was a 21st century FDR. What we got was a total buffoon and incompetent (GWB).

I don't know if Obama will provide the sort of turnaround we need (I don't even think Clinton could have done to be honest) - in all seriousness he probably can't. And I think people like the idea of what Obama represents more than what he can realistically deliver (as Tony Blair did), but anything has to be better than more of the same.

Oh the short attention span of all of us.

Didn't Obama say that he would do something great with healthcare when he first hit the scene (for prez)?

And now...well he had to change his tune...forced to conform like all politicians.

They all go to the same school dontcha know!!!

Yeah, the one that says cover your assssss.

Still, I am not slagging him. He is forced to change his viewpoints because there are some things that the true powers that be will never allow to change.

People, it is high time for a revolution.

Get on da bus!!!!

Edited October 7, 2008 by SpiritAlight

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Well to be honest - he kind of has to. You make healthcare a centrepiece of your campaign and then just before the election the economy crashes into the toilet. Not his fault of course - not that this makes much difference from the people who want to sneer at "flip-flops" or even the merest hint of perceived weakness, but I don't think its unreasonable to point out the obvious - that changing economic conditions will inevitably alter policy plans.

[SpiritAlight 1]

Well to be honest - he kind of has to. You make healthcare a centrepiece of your campaign and then just before the election the economy crashes into the toilet. Not his fault of course - not that this makes much difference from the people who want to sneer at "flip-flops" or even the merest hint of perceived weakness, but I don't think its unreasonable to point out the obvious - that changing economic conditions will inevitably alter policy plans.

Yup.

Unfortunate?

Timing?

Hmmmm....it is all quite interesting to note these things.

The game is too big for us to understand it or to know it at all.

We get crumbs from corporate media, and most of them are illusions.

[mawilson 2,133]

I always wonder when the 'suck at the teat of the government handout' people spout their mantra, what exactly they expect to happen should the government ever actually heed their words (Not going to happen, but let's just imagine for one moment) and closed all 'handout' programs? It's as if they imagine that all these people either suddenly cease to exist or that somehow they are going to magically transform themselves into people who have the $x to pay for whatever it happens to be that they recieve their 'handouts' for currently.

They will have no choice but to transform themselves or die in the streets.

Unlike in third-world countries, transforming oneself is not impossible in America.

[HAL 9000 96]

I always wonder when the 'suck at the teat of the government handout' people spout their mantra, what exactly they expect to happen should the government ever actually heed their words (Not going to happen, but let's just imagine for one moment) and closed all 'handout' programs? It's as if they imagine that all these people either suddenly cease to exist or that somehow they are going to magically transform themselves into people who have the $x to pay for whatever it happens to be that they recieve their 'handouts' for currently.

They will have no choice but to transform themselves or die in the streets.

Unlike in third-world countries, transforming oneself is not impossible in America.

What kind of transformation would that be? I'm curious.

[Peikko 1,575]

It is impossible if the current flawed health care and school systems are retained. The 'American Dream' is currently broken.

[mawilson 2,133]

It is impossible if the current flawed health care and school systems are retained. The 'American Dream' is currently broken.

Perhaps, but if poor immigrants can make it here (and most of them do), poor Americans really have no excuse.

[HAL 9000 96]

It is impossible if the current flawed health care and school systems are retained. The 'American Dream' is currently broken.

Perhaps, but if poor immigrants can make it here (and most of them do), poor Americans really have no excuse.

What kind of [poor] immigrants? I know that most probably do, and sorry for the Socratic questioning and all... but really... I do think that those 'poor immigrants' tend to be of the illegal type since US Visa requirements on their own tend to be quite skewed towards non-poor immigrants and those that come in on family visas need to come in living hypothetically above the poverty line.

And I really doubt that illegals are making it all that much.

[Peikko 1,575]

Mark's just being silly. He knows perfectly well that an incoming immigrant and the 'poor American' aren't going to be on the same level of the playing field.

[mawilson 2,133]

It is impossible if the current flawed health care and school systems are retained. The 'American Dream' is currently broken.

Perhaps, but if poor immigrants can make it here (and most of them do), poor Americans really have no excuse.

What kind of [poor] immigrants? I know that most probably do, and sorry for the Socratic questioning and all... but really... I do think that those 'poor immigrants' tend to be of the illegal type since US Visa requirements on their own tend to be quite skewed towards non-poor immigrants and those that come in on family visas need to come in living hypothetically above the poverty line.

And I really doubt that illegals are making it all that much.

Legal, illegal - how many legal immigrants do you know that rely on their "sponsors" for support?

"Affidavits of support" are usually signed by friends or relatives as a favor; taking advantage of them

is a pretty shitty thing to do.

[mawilson 2,133]

Mark's just being silly. He knows perfectly well that an incoming immigrant and the 'poor American' aren't going to be on the same level of the playing field.

Not really... poor Americans have it easy compared to illegal immigrants from Mexico, many of whom

risk their lives to get here, only to find it impossible to do anything here without a Social Security number

and government-issued ID.

[HAL 9000 96]

It is impossible if the current flawed health care and school systems are retained. The 'American Dream' is currently broken.

Perhaps, but if poor immigrants can make it here (and most of them do), poor Americans really have no excuse.

What kind of [poor] immigrants? I know that most probably do, and sorry for the Socratic questioning and all... but really... I do think that those 'poor immigrants' tend to be of the illegal type since US Visa requirements on their own tend to be quite skewed towards non-poor immigrants and those that come in on family visas need to come in living hypothetically above the poverty line.

And I really doubt that illegals are making it all that much.

Legal, illegal - how many legal immigrants do you know that rely on their "sponsors" for support?

"Affidavits of support" are usually signed by friends or relatives as a favor; taking advantage of them

is a pretty shitty thing to do.

Well, until they can legally work... they got sponsor $ to cover them quite well.

[Peikko 1,575]

In many ways, an incoming immigrant has a clean slate, no debts, no ties, no medical worries and very often a higher education level. Simply no equivelancy.

[Peikko 1,575]

Ah, we are talking illegal immigrant. Still no equivelancy. Interesting diversion though, I like it.

[mawilson 2,133]

In many ways, an incoming immigrant has a clean slate, no debts, no ties, no medical worries and very often a higher education level. Simply no equivelancy.

You're thinking of immigrants from the UK/Europe/Canada/Australia.

There are plenty of immigrants here from third-world countries with no education.