What if....

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

There's absolutely no proof of alien life whatsoever. All we have is mathematical probability.

[SpiritAlight 1]

I grew up religious and studied the bible extensively. Where does it specify dinosaurs and other planets? Especially that they (or at very least, dinosaurs) could be a few thousand years old.

More like you grew up ignorant and stayed true to your "beliefs". It doesn't specify that Jesus ever defecated but I'm sure he did or was that a miracle as well? The ancients knew about planets because they studied the heavens well for theri agro-priest dominated cultures which predate Abraham. This applies to the Egyptians and Babylonians and some other cultures of the day.

"The 7 Planets of the Ancients

The term "planet" originally meant "wanderer": it was observed long ago that certain points of light wandered (changed their position) with respect to the background stars in the sky. In ancient times, before the invention of the telescope and before one understood the present structure of the Solar System, there were thought to be 7 such wanderers or planets: Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the Moon, and the Sun. This list is different in several respects from our modern list of planets:

The Earth is missing, because it was not understood that the points of light wandering on the celestial sphere and the Earth on which we stood had anything in common.

Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto are missing because they would only be discovered when the telescope made them easily visible.

Uranus is barely visible to the naked eye; it was discovered in 1781.

Neptune and Pluto are too faint to see at all without a telescope; they were discovered in 1846 and 1930, respectively.

The Sun and the Moon were classified as planets because they wandered on the celestial sphere, just like Mars and Jupiter and the other planets.

A central theme of our initial discussion will be how the "7 planets of the Ancients" (only 5 of which are really planets) evolved into our present list of Solar System planets."

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/cl...sification.html

Certainly man/womankind discovered other planets...a loooong time ago.

Faith (which means believe without proof, without asking questions) is that supposedly the one god created life here on this Earth, and that is all.

Where did you miss that?

Edited September 26, 2008 by SpiritAlight

[Emancipation 2]

Faith (which means believe without proof, without asking questions) is that supposedly the one god created life here on this Earth, and that is all.

Where did you miss that?

Spirit, respectfully, I disagree. Faith is not belief without proof... that's the assumption by many, but true faith is never void of evidence, it's just a definition that people without it use to dismiss faith altogether. Also, Faith does not state that God created life here on earth and that is all.. I think you'll find there is the heavenly realms as well that was created.. what that entails is a long drawn out discussion.

(totally unrelated to Spirit's comments)....

I think if you truly want answers to these questions everyone needs to start listening.. the most frustrating thing for people like me who actually have something to say in threads like this is when you see people who do not believe what I believe attempt to speak for me, or when an answer is given concerning faith and belief a follow up question (without guile and condensation) is not asked.. instead some presumptuous counter statement is given to dismiss what was just said. It honestly makes me not want to even engage in threads like this at all, because the point (as it seems to me) is to belittle anyone with a different view, not to listen and try to understand another perspective.

Edited September 26, 2008 by Emancipation

[alienlovechild 75]

Certainly man/womankind discovered other planets...a loooong time ago.

That's what I said. SRVT claimed there was no mention of planets in the Bible so no one knew about them but that is simply not the case as demonstrated by several civilizations. The sphinx isn't mentioned either but it was surely there when the Hebrews were in Egypt.

Faith (which means believe without proof, without asking questions) is that supposedly the one god created life here on this Earth, and that is all.

Where did you miss that?

You can have faith even with questions. Haven't you ever heard of the "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin" discussion? I don't know many religious people that don't ask questions but choose to have their beliefs anyway.

It really doesn't matter and I'm still baffled why people who aren't religious would be so obsessed with the subject. I don't believe in a lot of stuff but I don't feel the need to go out of my way to antagonize others about it. I don't believe in astrology but I don't post messages everyday heckling people who believe in it.

[Emancipation 2]

Certainly man/womankind discovered other planets...a loooong time ago.

That's what I said. SRVT claimed there was no mention of planets in the Bible so no one knew about them but that is simply not the case as demonstrated by several civilizations. The sphinx isn't mentioned either but it was surely there when the Hebrews were in Egypt.

Faith (which means believe without proof, without asking questions) is that supposedly the one god created life here on this Earth, and that is all.

Where did you miss that?

You can have faith even with questions.

Let me clarify.. i'm not saying there are not people out there that don't question their faith ... i know people personally who just accept things.. but I also know many many many others who have solid rational reasons for faith.. You can't just dismiss us all IMO that is ridiculous and short sighted.

[alienlovechild 75]

Certainly man/womankind discovered other planets...a loooong time ago.

That's what I said. SRVT claimed there was no mention of planets in the Bible so no one knew about them but that is simply not the case as demonstrated by several civilizations. The sphinx isn't mentioned either but it was surely there when the Hebrews were in Egypt.

Faith (which means believe without proof, without asking questions) is that supposedly the one god created life here on this Earth, and that is all.

Where did you miss that?

You can have faith even with questions.

Let me clarify.. i'm not saying there are not people out there that don't question their faith ... i know people personally who just accept things.. but I also know many many many others who have solid rational reasons for faith.. You can't just dismiss us all IMO that is ridiculous and short sighted.

Um, there's no "us" so you are you talking to? You do claim you're speaking for? Who I'm I dismissing when you're the one with the blanket statements at the outset though you later qualified your earlier post?

[Emancipation 2]

Certainly man/womankind discovered other planets...a loooong time ago.

That's what I said. SRVT claimed there was no mention of planets in the Bible so no one knew about them but that is simply not the case as demonstrated by several civilizations. The sphinx isn't mentioned either but it was surely there when the Hebrews were in Egypt.

Faith (which means believe without proof, without asking questions) is that supposedly the one god created life here on this Earth, and that is all.

Where did you miss that?

You can have faith even with questions.

Let me clarify.. i'm not saying there are not people out there that don't question their faith ... i know people personally who just accept things.. but I also know many many many others who have solid rational reasons for faith.. You can't just dismiss us all IMO that is ridiculous and short sighted.

Um, there's no "us" so you are you talking to? You do claim you're speaking for? Who I'm I dismissing when you're the one with the blanket statements at the outset though you later qualified your earlier post?

hold the phone there.. i was speaking in general terms.. not specifically addressing you .. sorry if it came off that way.. I'm just saying I'm getting tired of everyone with "faith" being lumped in to the same pigeon hole in general.. i see it in so many aspects of my life.. in politics, in the media, on VJ.. it was a personal rant.. i didn't mean to make it personal to anyone specifically in this thread. Apologies if I mispoke.

[Scott & Lai 12]

Certainly man/womankind discovered other planets...a loooong time ago.

Faith (which means believe without proof, without asking questions) is that supposedly the one god created life here on this Earth, and that is all.

Where did you miss that?

Where did you get those ideas? I've been a Christian all my life, and have known many Christians. None have said that Christianity is based on or requires the belief that God could not have created life on any other planet. And I have never heard actual Christians define faith as "believing without proof, without asking questions," though I have often (especially on VJ) seen the claim by non-Christians that that is what Christians mean by "faith." Those are not the teachings of my church, and I have never found them in the Bible.

[SpiritAlight 1]

To Emancipation, Alienlovechild and Scott & Lai,

I take back my harsh (exaggerated) stance on the word "faith".

Although I do not believe in man-made religions, I do have faith about things that one cannot see.

Do I need proof that there is such a thing as intuition? (as one simple example)

It is something that cannot be proven and I believe it.

So, faith is still in my opinion something that needs no proof...just a belief.

I happen to believe that we all create our reality.

In other words, we can manifest what we think of, dream of.

Look around.

Humans have killed over 100 million humans in the 20th century.

We are all guilty...and still.

Insanity?

Yes.

Where am I going with this?

If humans do not check their tendencies to create havoc, life on earth will not change.

We will remain in chaos.

Do I believe there is life on other planets, in other worlds?

How could I believe that one tiny planet in a small solar system of one universe of many universes (multiverse) has the only life forms?

That would be like believing there is only one religion.

Hahaha!

We are human, therefore totally fallible.

Accept!

Surrender to it...the vulnerability of it all!

Edited September 26, 2008 by SpiritAlight

[IAMX 3,055]

That's what I said. SRVT claimed there was no mention of planets in the Bible so no one knew about them but that is simply not the case as demonstrated by several civilizations. The sphinx isn't mentioned either but it was surely there when the Hebrews were in Egypt.

Uh, no, I did not claim there are no mentions of planets (although I'm highly suspect it could have just been made up to mean Saturn, biblical texts are good at doing that, especially new biblical revisions), it is entirely to do with the ORIGINAL discussion which you deviated from in your defense of the bible which is the age of the Earth, because carbon/fossil dating places dinosaurs at well over 50 million years old, and up to something like nearly 300 million years. As in, the age of planets and the age of dinosaurs is entirely contradictory to the literal historical way Christians perceive the world based upon the bible. Looking at the stars is entirely plausible, but almost half of the planets could not be seen with the naked eye (Saturn's rings could not be), hence why there's an obvious limit as to how many planets were named, and the Hebrews weren't the first, as Saturn was seen during prehistoric times. Your explanation really means nothing that wasn't already known, and still has yet to point out the planets and how this has anything to do with the universe, or age of it, as pointed out, as well as dinosaurs, which is why both were pointed out. You may explain now.

It really doesn't matter and I'm still baffled why people who aren't religious would be so obsessed with the subject. I don't believe in a lot of stuff but I don't feel the need to go out of my way to antagonize others about it. I don't believe in astrology but I don't post messages everyday heckling people who believe in it.

Because, as addressed before, and will continue to be, because people are using these beliefs as a cause for stripping the rights of others. I will be voting on yet another goddamn amendment, made by religious bigots, to tell gays how to have a relationship based upon other people's beliefs regarding homosexuality being a sin and Sodom and Gomorrah, affecting gays and their relationship, even though they never asked Christians, nor do they care or need to, for permission to love one another.

So if you don't want the bible criticized, people need to stop using the bible as justification to do stupid sh!t to others. When you learn this concept of keeping beliefs to yourself and that the Constitution overrides your beliefs (and the bible) when it comes to the rights of individuals, then things can move forward. Otherwise, deal with the conflict, and deal with people scrutinizing the bible for what it is -- a bad story, a mass of contradiction, virtually nothing educational or useful in life that common sense couldn't tell you (for the few things that are useful in life), and that's it. Historically, this text has unfortunately been used to enslave blacks (says slavery is ok), make women subservient, and of course it has evolved to where people simply pick and choose what they want to take literally or symbolically, as if truth comes down to belief or vote.

This aside, I don't care about what you believe in, it's not my business. It is my business when it affects the rights of others. That's all.

[Not Available 0]

It annoys the hell out of me when people actually tell us Christians what we believe... we can speak for ourselves, thanks. And no, we all don't have the same outlook so stop categorizing us.

Ok I needed to let that out, I'm done.

Continue.

[IAMX 3,055]

Oook then, back to the debate.

[alienlovechild 75]

You earlier. . .

I grew up religious and studied the bible extensively. Where does it specify dinosaurs and other planets? Especially that they (or at very least, dinosaurs) could be a few thousand years old.

Uh, no, I did not claim there are no mentions of planets (although I'm highly suspect it could have just been made up to mean Saturn, biblical texts are good at doing that, especially new biblical revisions), it is entirely to do with the ORIGINAL discussion which you deviated from in your defense of the bible which is the age of the Earth, because carbon/fossil dating places dinosaurs at well over 50 million years old, and up to something like nearly 300 million years.

First you claimed there's no mention of planets then deny it or dismiss all evidence from ancient civilizations. Then you keep going over stuff about dinosaurs and the age of the Earth I never talked about. Find my quotes saying otherwise. The thread was about ETs not dinosaurs.

As in, the age of planets and the age of dinosaurs is entirely contradictory to the literal historical way Christians perceive the world based upon the bible. Looking at the stars is entirely plausible, but almost half of the planets could not be seen with the naked eye (Saturn's rings could not be), hence why there's an obvious limit as to how many planets were named, and the Hebrews weren't the first, as Saturn was seen during prehistoric times. Your explanation really means nothing that wasn't already known, and still has yet to point out the planets and how this has anything to do with the universe, or age of it, as pointed out, as well as dinosaurs, which is why both were pointed out. You may explain now.

You finally got a grasp of the subject. Many ancient people knew planets were different than stars. The fact not every planet visible with the naked eye wasn't mentioned didn't mean the Hebrews didn't know about them. It's silly to point out that people living in Biblical times didn't have advanced knowledge of the universe. They also didn't have carbon dating either so pointing they didn't get the age of planet right isn't exactly shocking.

It really doesn't matter and I'm still baffled why people who aren't religious would be so obsessed with the subject. I don't believe in a lot of stuff but I don't feel the need to go out of my way to antagonize others about it. I don't believe in astrology but I don't post messages everyday heckling people who believe in it.

Because, as addressed before, and will continue to be, because people are using these beliefs as a cause for stripping the rights of others. I will be voting on yet another goddamn amendment, made by religious bigots, to tell gays how to have a relationship based upon other people's beliefs regarding homosexuality being a sin and Sodom and Gomorrah, affecting gays and their relationship, even though they never asked Christians, nor do they care or need to, for permission to love one another.

What do gays on planet Earth have to do with ET?

Going out of the way to piss off religious people isn't going to win to them over either.

So if you don't want the bible criticized, people need to stop using the bible as justification to do stupid sh!t to others. When you learn this concept of keeping beliefs to yourself and that the Constitution overrides your beliefs (and the bible) when it comes to the rights of individuals, then things can move forward. Otherwise, deal with the conflict, and deal with people scrutinizing the bible for what it is -- a bad story, a mass of contradiction, virtually nothing educational or useful in life that common sense couldn't tell you (for the few things that are useful in life), and that's it. Historically, this text has unfortunately been used to enslave blacks (says slavery is ok), make women subservient, and of course it has evolved to where people simply pick and choose what they want to take literally or symbolically, as if truth comes down to belief or vote.

Freedom speech ring a liberty bell? There's nothing in the Constitution limiting speech based on the religion of the speaker.

The comment about the Bible having nothing of value reflects more than your usual level of ignorance. The idea common sense overrides any book learning flies in the face of our entire educational system.

"Some people[who?] use the phrase to refer to beliefs or propositions that — in their opinion — most people would consider prudent and of sound judgment, without reliance on esoteric knowledge or study or research, but based upon what they see as knowledge held by people "in common". Thus "common sense" (in this view) equates to the knowledge and experience which most people allegedly have, or which the person using the term believes that they do or should have."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense

The Bible is great work of literature at the very least and was the sole source of reading material for centuries for most people. It furthered the cause of literacy and helped foster individual religious beliefs without the interpretation of priests. The anti-slavery movements were led by Christians before it was fashionable to do so years later and women right's are more advanced in nations that are Christian in general.

This aside, I don't care about what you believe in, it's not my business. It is my business when it affects the rights of others. That's all

.

Somehow I doubt whether the republic's future hangs on you playing Internet Superman "defending" the rights of the downtrodden all the while bashing the "wrong" brand of Christianity whether the issue come up or not.

Edited September 26, 2008 by alienlovechild

[Ban Hammer 13,337]

It annoys the hell out of me when people actually tell us Christians what we believe... we can speak for ourselves, thanks. And no, we all don't have the same outlook so stop categorizing us.

Ok I needed to let that out, I'm done.

Continue.

[IAMX 3,055]

First you claimed there's no mention of planets then deny it or dismiss all evidence from ancient civilizations. Then you keep going over stuff about dinosaurs and the age of the Earth I never talked about. Find my quotes saying otherwise. The thread was about ETs not dinosaurs.

The age of the Earth was MY point of contention from the start. Don't blame me for your inability to read. You just got defensive and instead tried to one-up someone who knows about the religion they criticize when it's necessary.

From me:

If the Earth is only 4000 years old, then that MUST mean the Dinosaurs were around. Maybe Adam met them. Maybe Noah met them. I'm sure with all of your teachings you could elaborate.

You never elaborated.

You finally got a grasp of the subject. Many ancient people knew planets were different than stars. The fact not every planet visible with the naked eye wasn't mentioned didn't mean the Hebrews didn't know about them. It's silly to point out that people living in Biblical times didn't have advanced knowledge of the universe. They also didn't have carbon dating either so pointing they didn't get the age of planet right isn't exactly shocking.

Once again, I don't care how people then used the bible in relation to looking at planets. This was never up for debate. However, people today (note how I argue something actually worth a #######) use the bible to take as if it's supposed to be taken literally as historically accurate (how many mentions of this in the topic?), with the gaping holes like TIME, and yet pick and choose the moral precepts they want to use from both the Old and New Testament.

What do gays on planet Earth have to do with ET?

What does ET have to do with candy?

Going out of the way to piss off religious people isn't going to win to them over either.

Not interested in winning over religious people. Evidently you failed to read yet another quote of mine regarding beliefs.

Freedom speech ring a liberty bell? There's nothing in the Constitution limiting speech based on the religion of the speaker.

The comment about the Bible having nothing of value reflects more than your usual level of ignorance. The idea common sense overrides any book learning flies in the face of our entire educational system.

Our educational system is bible-free, and does perfectly fine on it's own. You'll have to show how the bible is educational, other than from the Christian perspective of things, which actually flies in the face of social and scientific progress.

And free speech and religion is two ways. Notice how I'm not telling anyone to shut up, or to stop practicing their religion. I am telling them to give their sh!t a rest when it comes to exercising it upon others. Unless your belief is freedom of religion and speech only applies to religions you agree with.

The Bible is great work of literature at the very least and was the sole source of reading material for centuries for most people. It furthered the cause of literacy and helped foster individual religious beliefs without the interpretation of priests. The anti-slavery movements were led by Christians before it was fashionable to do so years later and women right's are more advanced in nations that are Christian in general.

Well, unfortunately for you, the bible was used in this country for purposes of elimination of women's rights, enslaving blacks, and even today, banning gays from the equal right of marriage. So evidently Christians still have some way to go to catch up.

Somehow I doubt whether the republic's future hangs on you playing Internet Superman "defending" the rights of the downtrodden all the while bashing the "wrong" brand of Christianity whether the issue come up or not.

There needs to be someone to counter the "defending" of those Christians (or anyone else, but this is about religion, particularly Christianity) who are bigots and feel the need to suppress others. I find it ironic you whine about freedom of religion or beliefs or speech while two loving men or two loving women aren't even able to marry because of Christian and their imposing of beliefs.