What if....

[alienlovechild 75]

I grew up religious and studied the bible extensively. Where does it specify dinosaurs and other planets? Especially that they (or at very least, dinosaurs) could be a few thousand years old.

More like you grew up ignorant and stayed true to your "beliefs". It doesn't specify that Jesus ever defecated but I'm sure he did or was that a miracle as well? The ancients knew about planets because they studied the heavens well for theri agro-priest dominated cultures which predate Abraham. This applies to the Egyptians and Babylonians and some other cultures of the day.

"The 7 Planets of the Ancients

The term "planet" originally meant "wanderer": it was observed long ago that certain points of light wandered (changed their position) with respect to the background stars in the sky. In ancient times, before the invention of the telescope and before one understood the present structure of the Solar System, there were thought to be 7 such wanderers or planets: Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the Moon, and the Sun. This list is different in several respects from our modern list of planets:

The Earth is missing, because it was not understood that the points of light wandering on the celestial sphere and the Earth on which we stood had anything in common.

Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto are missing because they would only be discovered when the telescope made them easily visible.

Uranus is barely visible to the naked eye; it was discovered in 1781.

Neptune and Pluto are too faint to see at all without a telescope; they were discovered in 1846 and 1930, respectively.

The Sun and the Moon were classified as planets because they wandered on the celestial sphere, just like Mars and Jupiter and the other planets.

A central theme of our initial discussion will be how the "7 planets of the Ancients" (only 5 of which are really planets) evolved into our present list of Solar System planets."

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/cl...sification.html

[SteveLaura 0]

It doesn't specify that Jesus ever defecated but I'm sure he did

We prefer the term 'Holy Purge'.

[akdiver 3]

It doesn't specify that Jesus ever defecated but I'm sure he did

We prefer the term 'Holy Purge'.

Which no doubt let to the term, "Holy ####!"

[IAMX 3,055]

I grew up religious and studied the bible extensively. Where does it specify dinosaurs and other planets? Especially that they (or at very least, dinosaurs) could be a few thousand years old.

More like you grew up ignorant and stayed true to your "beliefs". It doesn't specify that Jesus ever defecated but I'm sure he did or was that a miracle as well? The ancients knew about planets because they studied the heavens well for theri agro-priest dominated cultures which predate Abraham. This applies to the Egyptians and Babylonians and some other cultures of the day.

"The 7 Planets of the Ancients

The term "planet" originally meant "wanderer": it was observed long ago that certain points of light wandered (changed their position) with respect to the background stars in the sky. In ancient times, before the invention of the telescope and before one understood the present structure of the Solar System, there were thought to be 7 such wanderers or planets: Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the Moon, and the Sun. This list is different in several respects from our modern list of planets:

The Earth is missing, because it was not understood that the points of light wandering on the celestial sphere and the Earth on which we stood had anything in common.

Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto are missing because they would only be discovered when the telescope made them easily visible.

Uranus is barely visible to the naked eye; it was discovered in 1781.

Neptune and Pluto are too faint to see at all without a telescope; they were discovered in 1846 and 1930, respectively.

The Sun and the Moon were classified as planets because they wandered on the celestial sphere, just like Mars and Jupiter and the other planets.

A central theme of our initial discussion will be how the "7 planets of the Ancients" (only 5 of which are really planets) evolved into our present list of Solar System planets."

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/cl...sification.html

Hey that's a great story you just told me. But you really didn't tell me sh!t about how this relates the bible or your biblical/church teachings regarding planets and the universe. Or even dinosaurs. I'd love to see where it specifically states this. Particularly of the Christian bible, since I'm well versed and have made a killing in showing how people either make #### up or they pick and choose which they want to believe in or distort some vague text to mean something else. If the Earth is only 4000 years old, then that MUST mean the Dinosaurs were around. Maybe Adam met them. Maybe Noah met them. I'm sure with all of your teachings you could elaborate.

[bgreed 0]

Well if you are so well versed then you know (my paraphrase) "a day is like a thousand years"? Meaning quite obviously that the seven days of creation were not literal 24 hour days. Even the most diehard fundamentalists pretty much agree on this point.

Is it not conceivable to you that there were a lot of thing happening during that time other than just the few things mentioned in Genisis? It seems to me that the strict eveloutionists are the ones who have the brain cramp. Very few of the more mainstream Christian religions teach in the way you are mentioning.

Since God is eternal the being and the end is it not coveivable to you that his view of time is quite different than our finite view? For instance we can only see the time that has passed whereas God can see both the past and the future.

I find it pretty amusing for those that say they are so "Well versed" and yet can't think. This is called being educated beyond your intellect.

[akdiver 3]

That's the nice thing about the arguments of bible thumpers. They trot out reason and logic when it suits them, and dogma and literalism when they're focusing on their agenda.

A "day" does not REALLY mean a day - indeed.

Edited September 25, 2008 by akdiver

[JohnSmith2007 353]

Christian faith and maybe others are based on earthlings being the only life-forms in the universe/multiverse.

So, yes, it could get messy.

It is? I must have missed that one in Catechism class, Bible studies, and four years at a Christian liberal arts college

I grew up religious and studied the bible extensively. Where does it specify dinosaurs and other planets? Especially that they (or at very least, dinosaurs) could be a few thousand years old.

Judging from you comments I really doubt that you "grew up religious and studied the bible extensively".

I come from a very religious family. My father is a decon in the Baptist church and a bible study teacher. While I am not particulary religious myself I have had this stuff hammered into me from day one. No where does it say we are the only beings in the universe. My father used to tell me about the creation story when I was a kid. Today even he now admitts that evolution is real (but directed by God) and the earth is billions of years old. Those that still think that the earth was created in 6 24 hour days are very small. I asked him one time what he would do if we ever contacted ET. He said that the universe is a very big place and it would be a waste of space if we were the only ones in it. His faith wouldn't be shaken in the least if ET landed on the white house lawn and said hello. I dare say that very few would have a crisis of faith if that were to happen.

Now let me ask you something. Lets say ET shows up and he religious beliefs very close to ours, maybe even his own version of Jesus. Would you change your mind?

[Scott & Lai 12]

I grew up religious and studied the bible extensively. Where does it specify dinosaurs and other planets? Especially that they (or at very least, dinosaurs) could be a few thousand years old.

More like you grew up ignorant and stayed true to your "beliefs". It doesn't specify that Jesus ever defecated but I'm sure he did or was that a miracle as well? The ancients knew about planets because they studied the heavens well for theri agro-priest dominated cultures which predate Abraham. This applies to the Egyptians and Babylonians and some other cultures of the day.

"The 7 Planets of the Ancients

The term "planet" originally meant "wanderer": it was observed long ago that certain points of light wandered (changed their position) with respect to the background stars in the sky. In ancient times, before the invention of the telescope and before one understood the present structure of the Solar System, there were thought to be 7 such wanderers or planets: Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, the Moon, and the Sun. This list is different in several respects from our modern list of planets:

The Earth is missing, because it was not understood that the points of light wandering on the celestial sphere and the Earth on which we stood had anything in common.

Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto are missing because they would only be discovered when the telescope made them easily visible.

Uranus is barely visible to the naked eye; it was discovered in 1781.

Neptune and Pluto are too faint to see at all without a telescope; they were discovered in 1846 and 1930, respectively.

The Sun and the Moon were classified as planets because they wandered on the celestial sphere, just like Mars and Jupiter and the other planets.

A central theme of our initial discussion will be how the "7 planets of the Ancients" (only 5 of which are really planets) evolved into our present list of Solar System planets."

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/cl...sification.html

Hey that's a great story you just told me. But you really didn't tell me sh!t about how this relates the bible or your biblical/church teachings regarding planets and the universe. Or even dinosaurs. I'd love to see where it specifically states this. Particularly of the Christian bible, since I'm well versed and have made a killing in showing how people either make #### up or they pick and choose which they want to believe in or distort some vague text to mean something else. If the Earth is only 4000 years old, then that MUST mean the Dinosaurs were around. Maybe Adam met them. Maybe Noah met them. I'm sure with all of your teachings you could elaborate.

The Bible wasn't written to tell us everything we ever wanted to know about Everything. If you want to know about the planets, study Astronomy. If you want to know about dinosaurs, study Paleontology. And no where in the Bible does it state that the Earth is only 4000 (or 6000) years old.

That's the nice thing about the arguments of bible thumpers. They trot out reason and logic when it suits them, and dogma and literalism when they're focusing on their agenda.

A "day" does not REALLY mean a day - indeed.

We use "day" in many ways, not just to mean 24 hours. Day can mean one rotation of the Earth, it can mean the period of daylight between two periods of night (a varying time period, btw), it can mean a 24 hour period (the actual rotaional time of Earth rounded up), it can mean daylight, it can mean the rotational period of other celestial bodies, whether or not that is 24 hours, it can mean an era.... So why is it so hard to accept that "Day" in Genesis 1 could mean something other than 24 hours, as we measure them?

Edited September 26, 2008 by Scott & Lai

[IAMX 3,055]

Judging from you comments I really doubt that you "grew up religious and studied the bible extensively".

Doubt all you like, friend, baptized twice, attended church (Presbyterian) regularly and was an outstanding member (even attended church events which was fun, and made plenty of friends) until I grew up. In more ways than one. Kept the friends, lost the religion. If it makes you feel better to think someone wasn't truly religious, by all means, you can (and will) believe whatever you like. Doesn't matter to me in the slightest.

I come from a very religious family. My father is a decon in the Baptist church and a bible study teacher. While I am not particulary religious myself I have had this stuff hammered into me from day one. No where does it say we are the only beings in the universe. My father used to tell me about the creation story when I was a kid. Today even he now admitts that evolution is real (but directed by God) and the earth is billions of years old. Those that still think that the earth was created in 6 24 hour days are very small. I asked him one time what he would do if we ever contacted ET. He said that the universe is a very big place and it would be a waste of space if we were the only ones in it. His faith wouldn't be shaken in the least if ET landed on the white house lawn and said hello. I dare say that very few would have a crisis of faith if that were to happen.

Now let me ask you something. Lets say ET shows up and he religious beliefs very close to ours, maybe even his own version of Jesus. Would you change your mind?

If evolution is directed by god, that's great. Being agnostic, I don't care for the god argument. Maybe there's a god, maybe there's not. There's absolutely no ###### way tell. So I don't worry about that.

I respect Christian beliefs. I was with one in my previous relationship. I can attend their church and won't bat an eye. Ironically, my voting precinct is in a church (ironically, SDA), and I go in there (not always, but I do have a lot of metal attire since I attend concerts regularly) with heavy metal shirts (of those who spat in the face of religion) and I get comments of how cool those bands are. I've got no problem with people being tolerant and I don't go in there and tell them bad things. In fact, I give them support since they're just genuinely nice people wanting to live their life and enjoy their god. Nothing wrong with this whatsoever. On the other hand, I will not go softly on the fundamentalist types who think they get to tell everyone else who can love who, ho can be with who, and how much of an abomination two people loving each other is. Even lesser tolerate idiots telling gays they can't marry because of one's own religious beliefs which are hypocritical and cherrypicking as it is. These people should be put in the public view, scrutinized, and assailed as often as possible.

Now, if an ET shows up and has religious beliefs, that means nothing to me. I mean, to one who's gullible it may give an ounce of credibility if they believe the same, if they don't they can just make excuses, maybe even call ET the devil, but for similar beliefs, maybe even satisfaction or self-righteousness. Maybe this ET can explain all of the inconsistent messages in the bible, about turning the other cheek, love/honor thy neighbor, your parents, then turn around and kill kids, kill murderers, kill non-followers/disbelievers, and the cherrypicking used regarding the Old Testament, while using them historically as true, but not socially/morally as true, while the New Testament says you MUST follow the Old Testament as Moses law has every ounce of credibility. I bet you if ET's religious it won't have the same bible as you, and if ET could reach here he'd probably have picked a hell of a lot better and smarter religion. And that's even playing this game despite there being no evidence there has been aliens visiting us.

[IAMX 3,055]

The Bible wasn't written to tell us everything we ever wanted to know about Everything. If you want to know about the planets, study Astronomy. If you want to know about dinosaurs, study Paleontology. And no where in the Bible does it state that the Earth is only 4000 (or 6000) years old.

Biblical scholars mostly use the 4,000 and 6,000 number.

Here it is from a pro-Christian website.

http://www.icr.org/articles/view/1137/303/

How Old Is The Earth According To The Bible?

The Institute for Creation Research has always taught, as an integral part of its ministry, the concept of the young earth. We have never put an absolute date on the age of the earth. We feel that the Bible doesn't provide all the information necessary for certainty, as shown by the fact that almost every Bible scholar who has ever tried to discern the exact date has come to slightly different conclusions. Maybe all the information is there but we just don't understand it fully yet.

However, lest we be too concerned, every honest attempt to determine the date, starting with a deep commitment to the inerrancy of God's Word, has calculated a span of just a few thousand years, most likely close to 6000 years, since creation. The largest figure I've ever seen from a trustworthy scholar is approximately 15,000 years, but even this seems to stretch the Biblical data too far.

To calculate the date one must first employ the genealogical data given in Genesis, I & II Chronicles, the Gospels, and elsewhere. Information gleaned from Judges, I & II Kings, Daniel, Acts, and other books must be included as well. Since dates are fairly well established archaeologically beginning at about the time of David, these can be a big help. This is because so many Biblical events are referenced to the reigns of individual kings. Obviously, the job is difficult.

Of course the genealogies only begin with the creation of Adam, so the question of time before Adam remains. As has been well noted on these pages, the six days of Creation Week must be of the same length as our days. We recognize, however, that the Hebrew word yom, translated "day," can have a variety of meanings, including an indefinite period of time. Thus, some have suggested that these six days might then be equated with the billions of years claimed by geologists.

Whenever a word in Scripture can have a variety of meanings, we must go to the context to determine what it does mean and not be content with what it might mean. And when we do, we find that the first time yom is used, it is defined as a solar day (Genesis 1:3), and then a total day/night cycle (1:3).

Furthermore, yom is modified by "evening and morning," which in Hebrew can only mean a literal day. It is also modified by an ordinal number (first, second, etc.), a construction limited in Hebrew to that of a literal day. Elsewhere the six days of creation are equated with the six days of our work week (Exodus 20:11), a formula incorporated in the fourth of the Ten Commandments regarding the Sabbath rest. We should mention that the use of a numeral to modify "days," in this case "6," is again reserved for a literal day in Hebrew, as is the use of the plural word "days."

Suffice it to say that no one could conclude that Scripture specifically places Creation any longer ago than a few thousand years, and to my knowledge no one does. Many do hold to an older position, but not for Scriptural reasons. They are convinced by radioisotope dating, perhaps, or maybe the molecular clock of mutation rates, or some other line of thinking, but not from Scripture.

Scripture teaches a young earth, and the time has come for Christians to stop twisting Scripture to fit the evolutionary and uniformitarian speculations of some scientists about the unobserved past. We suggest it's time for such Christians to stop calling themselves "Bible-believing" Christians and start using some such name as "world-believing" Christians.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_date.htm

Most estimates based on a literal interpretation of the Bible, and in particular the belief that the Hebrew word : "yom" in Genesis refers to a 24 hour day, cluster around 6,000 years :± 2,000 years for both the age of the Earth and of the rest of the universe. These estimates are promoted by young-Earth creationists, and by the vast majority of Christian para-church organizations which specialize in origins. In 1738, De Vignoles stated that he had accumulated no fewer than 200 computations of the date of creation, all based upon various diverse interpretations of the Bible.

Most conservative groups within Christianity still follow the estimate of Dr. John Lightfoot, a 17th century Anglican clergyman. He estimated that creation occurred during 4004 BCE. Bishop James Ussher in the 17th century made the same estimate a decade later, and got almost all the credit.

This of course cites Genesis numerous times in several points. Taking Genesis literally. So if it was factual, wonder why they keep screwing it up.

Of course, when you also talk about morality, they want to bypass Genesis.

Hence, cherrypicking.

Edited September 26, 2008 by SRVT

[alienlovechild 75]

Hey that's a great story you just told me.

How would you know? You had no idea what I was referring to or couldn't figure out at least come with a at least a half-hearted retort.

But you really didn't tell me sh!t about how this relates the bible or your biblical/church teachings regarding planets and the universe. Or even dinosaurs. I'd love to see where it specifically states this. Particularly of the Christian bible, since I'm well versed and have made a killing in showing how people either make #### up or they pick and choose which they want to believe in or distort some vague text to mean something else.

You could hold to reality long enough to recognize what I wrote. I didn't write jack about dinosaurs or the Bible. I pointed out quite clearly the ancients knew about the planets INDEPENDENT of the Biblical. Do you know anything about the history of Egypt or Mesopotamia? I fail to see how you could be well-versed in anything or how you made a killing with stuff a 4th grader could up with.

Ok, there were these people called Hebrews and they around a long time before Jesus. They noticed planets move differently than stars. They had a hang up with people worshipping things other than Yahweh so they didn't study the heavens. They didn't need to because they didn't to deal with annual flooding unlike those cultures along the Nile or the Tigris and Euphrates. I know I just lost you because you saw too many Flintstone episodes and want me to explain how Dino and Fred could live in the same house.

Anyway. . . I found more on the subject in five minutes than you did in years of study.

"The planets

"Mazzalot"[12] as already indicated, can refer to the planets collectively. But only two planets are named in the Old Testament:

Saturn, called "Chiun" in Amos 5:26, closely related to the Assyrian "Kévan" or "kaiwanu."

Venus, called "Meleket ha-Shamayim," "the queen of heaven," in Jeremiah 7:18 and elsewhere. That the latter means Venus is shown by the cakes which are said to have been baked for her. Among the Assyrians and Babylonians the cake offerings were called "the bread of Ishtar."

"Helel," the "son of the morning," in Isaiah 14:12, is also thought by some to be the morning star (Venus when visible before dawn). This identification is better known to many English speakers as Lucifer, the "light-bearer."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_astronomy

If the Earth is only 4000 years old, then that MUST mean the Dinosaurs were around. Maybe Adam met them. Maybe Noah met them. I'm sure with all of your teachings you could elaborate.

You want to bring that up with your imaginary friend or another poster because I didn't advance that idea.

[akdiver 3]

Now let me ask you something. Lets say ET shows up and he religious beliefs very close to ours, maybe even his own version of Jesus. Would you change your mind?

Let's say ET shows up, lands his space craft on the White House lawn and says he IS Jesus. Let's further suppose that he says he made up the whole God thing, and that the Jesus we know is just him, here 2000 years ago doing some research on primitive cultures, and things got a little out of hand. What then?

[JohnSmith2007 353]

Now let me ask you something. Lets say ET shows up and he religious beliefs very close to ours, maybe even his own version of Jesus. Would you change your mind?

Let's say ET shows up, lands his space craft on the White House lawn and says he IS Jesus. Let's further suppose that he says he made up the whole God thing, and that the Jesus we know is just him, here 2000 years ago doing some research on primitive cultures, and things got a little out of hand. What then?

What if the moon was made out of green cheese? This is your flight of fancy not mine. Ask me again when the mother ship arrives.

[IAMX 3,055]

Hey that's a great story you just told me.

How would you know? You had no idea what I was referring to or couldn't figure out at least come with a at least a half-hearted retort.

But you really didn't tell me sh!t about how this relates the bible or your biblical/church teachings regarding planets and the universe. Or even dinosaurs. I'd love to see where it specifically states this. Particularly of the Christian bible, since I'm well versed and have made a killing in showing how people either make #### up or they pick and choose which they want to believe in or distort some vague text to mean something else.

You could hold to reality long enough to recognize what I wrote. I didn't write jack about dinosaurs or the Bible. I pointed out quite clearly the ancients knew about the planets INDEPENDENT of the Biblical. Do you know anything about the history of Egypt or Mesopotamia? I fail to see how you could be well-versed in anything or how you made a killing with stuff a 4th grader could up with.

Ok, there were these people called Hebrews and they around a long time before Jesus. They noticed planets move differently than stars. They had a hang up with people worshipping things other than Yahweh so they didn't study the heavens. They didn't need to because they didn't to deal with annual flooding unlike those cultures along the Nile or the Tigris and Euphrates. I know I just lost you because you saw too many Flintstone episodes and want me to explain how Dino and Fred could live in the same house.

Anyway. . . I found more on the subject in five minutes than you did in years of study.

"The planets

"Mazzalot"[12] as already indicated, can refer to the planets collectively. But only two planets are named in the Old Testament:

Saturn, called "Chiun" in Amos 5:26, closely related to the Assyrian "Kévan" or "kaiwanu."

Venus, called "Meleket ha-Shamayim," "the queen of heaven," in Jeremiah 7:18 and elsewhere. That the latter means Venus is shown by the cakes which are said to have been baked for her. Among the Assyrians and Babylonians the cake offerings were called "the bread of Ishtar."

"Helel," the "son of the morning," in Isaiah 14:12, is also thought by some to be the morning star (Venus when visible before dawn). This identification is better known to many English speakers as Lucifer, the "light-bearer."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_astronomy

If the Earth is only 4000 years old, then that MUST mean the Dinosaurs were around. Maybe Adam met them. Maybe Noah met them. I'm sure with all of your teachings you could elaborate.

You want to bring that up with your imaginary friend or another poster because I didn't advance that idea.

Ahh, but, of course, this doesn't mention years, or anything historically AT ALL. It just means people named stuff, which actually the Greeks did, especially in a more sophisticated manner (taken from ancient Rome, not Hebrews), sans religion. People only even noted planets because people worshiped them as idolaters much like people worship all kinds of stupid sh!t like plants or statues. Yet again this means nothing regarding the historical value of the bible and how it at all means it's historically accurate. Your worthless attempt has failed again. Keep looking. I'll give you all the time you need.

[alienlovechild 75]

If it makes you feel better to think someone wasn't truly religious, by all means, you can (and will) believe whatever you like. Doesn't matter to me in the slightest.

Bullshirt, you go off on religion with great regularity whether anyone else brings it up or not.

If evolution is directed by god, that's great. Being agnostic, I don't care for the god argument. Maybe there's a god, maybe there's not. There's absolutely no ###### way tell. So I don't worry about that.

Another blatant falsehood. You claim to not to argue about a subject which on you claim disinterest.

I respect Christian beliefs. I was with one in my previous relationship. I can attend their church and won't bat an eye. Ironically, my voting precinct is in a church (ironically, SDA), and I go in there (not always, but I do have a lot of metal attire since I attend concerts regularly) with heavy metal shirts (of those who spat in the face of religion) and I get comments of how cool those bands are.

Still not over the childhood trauma stage yet? Who goes to heavy metal concerts anymore? You'll find a few dinosaurs there.

On the other hand, I will not go softly on the fundamentalist types who think they get to tell everyone else who can love who, ho can be with who, and how much of an abomination two people loving each other is. Even lesser tolerate idiots telling gays they can't marry because of one's own religious beliefs which are hypocritical and cherrypicking as it is. These people should be put in the public view, scrutinized, and assailed as often as possible.

Tolerate ain't your persona online, sorry. You may be different in person but I'll never know.

Now, if an ET shows up and has religious beliefs, that means nothing to me. I mean, to one who's gullible it may give an ounce of credibility if they believe the same, if they don't they can just make excuses, maybe even call ET the devil, but for similar beliefs, maybe even satisfaction or self-righteousness.

Here we go again. Who is slamming ET as the devil. Have ever felt the urge to tilt at windmills thinking one is Cheney or another must be a Christian fundementalist?

Maybe this ET can explain all of the inconsistent messages in the bible, about turning the other cheek, love/honor thy neighbor, your parents, then turn around and kill kids, kill murderers, kill non-followers/disbelievers, and the cherrypicking used regarding the Old Testament, while using them historically as true, but not socially/morally as true, while the New Testament says you MUST follow the Old Testament as Moses law has every ounce of credibility.

You know more about the Bible but you don't understand the concept of the "Fall"? Christians are supposed to be sinners or the temptation wouldn't exist.

I do appreciate you giving us your background and I don't disbelieve your experience. I've met a lot of anti-religous types who got a knee-jerk attitude because they were forced into some form of religion in their youth so they feel the need to assert their independence and retaliate against the perception of being "surrounded" by enemies real or imagined.

The irony is I'm about to watch the movie, Holy Mountain. It's as sacrilegious as you can get and you'd probably like it. Oh, it was made in 1973 so it's not new.

Edited September 26, 2008 by alienlovechild