RANT: Government Sucks

[trailmix 77]

Maybe this will help:

Missing hyphen complicates name change

Bureaucratic mistake frustrates immigrant but process is in place to correct the error

Apr 05, 2008 04:30 AM

Allan Thompson

Q: I have a problem with name and identity caused by the Canada Immigration office. My legal given name has a hyphen between two syllables. However, Canada Immigration automatically removed the hyphen while processing my immigration application. I was not aware this could be a big issue at the end because I was all excited about getting approved. As a result, I got a Permanent Resident's card with no hyphen in my given name. Lately, I've been trying to change my legal name, but the Ontario office of the Registrar General returned my package and told me there is no hyphen on the PR card I sent them but there is a hyphen in my birth certificate. This makes me very frustrated because I was not the one who removed the hyphen. To change the information on my PR card and landing status would cost much time and money. How do I resolve this situation?

A: It may take some time, but it shouldn't cost you money to ask the immigration department to correct its own error on your documentation. Then you could take the corrected documentation to the provincial Registrar General's office to proceed with your name change. As it happens, the immigration department has an application kit online for just this purpose. Seems you are not the first person to have a name spelled incorrectly because of a typographical error on the part of the immigration department. You should start with the application form to amend an error on your record of landing and confirmation of permanent residence. You can find the application kit at: cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/amend.asp.

This application kit will walk you through the process for requesting an amendment to your record of landing and confirmation of permanent residence to correct errors made by Citizenship and Immigration Canada in recording the information you provided when you applied to come to Canada. The application kit provides clear instructions about the material you need to provide and where to send the form. So this shouldn't cost you more than a postage stamp.

[antda 13]

Hi DeadPoolX,

Thanks for the update about your Canadian SIN, and after all that hassle for you, I hope that you get your SIN card soon.

Yeah, I know what you mean about the SSN being asked everywhere in the US, for pretty much everything. It's basically one's "identification number", used for everything, kind of like one's name, I suppose. Because of all this "identity theft" going around, and with the number being asked so frequently, you would think that the government and/or private organizations would have a better system for idenfiying someone instead of just using a number than anyone can easily "steal". It's scary to think that if one's number is used in the wrong hands, then who knows what bad things can happen....

Funny, that reminds me of a commerical recently of some identity theft company, where some spokesperson actually posted their real SSN for everyone to see to prove how their services worked. I'm sure he had a lot of regrets about doing that, as I bet a lot of people were after him after he jeopardized his identity that way. Oh well, his choice though...

That's interesting to know about the test scores. Hopefully they don't do that anymore in colleges/universities, as that would be a contributor to identity theft indeed. And it's interesting to know too (I didn't know before), that the last 4 digits are personal identification numbers for each individual person. No wonder my husband and his twin have the same numbers, except for the last 4 digits, and yes, it has caused a lot of confusion before since the numbers are so similar. I wonder what the first 5 digits represent then? Are the first 5 digits other identification information in code (for example, birthday, time of application, etc.?)?

Hmm...It would make sense that the SSN cards are on a flimsy piece of paper, as one isn't supposed to carry it around with them. But you would think that they would at least laminate it, or put some plastic cover over it, as paper does fade and fall apart with time, even if it is kept safely and hidden away. For example, I remember going into the SSN office, and an elderly gentlemen had to get his card that he had since after birth replaced because it was literally falling apart, as they showed it to the worker there for a replacement....lol....

It's funny too, how the SSN number in ths USA is usually is required to have for a person shortly after birth. Whereas the Canadian SIN number one usually applies for when they need it for work, and other financial purposes.

I remember I got my Canadian SIN at about 16 or so, when I needed it for a work placement, and before then, nobody even asked or cared that I didn't have a number before. It was quick and simple too, in and out in 10 mins or so when I got my SIN, unlike here with the SSN where I had so much trouble to apply for that.

On the DMV here in the USA, for me, thank goodness, was quick too, in and out in an hour or so, without any testing (lol...spent more time re-filling extra forms, as I was doing a direct transfer and a name change at the same time). As for the MTO in Canada, gee, that was a costly nightmare. What's the deal with the graduated licensing system that they have up there anyways? Does a person really need to go through all that wasted time with the extra road testing?

By the way, DeadPoolX, when you do apply for your driver's license in Canada, you should definitely ask if you can have a direct transfer of your US driver's license. No point in doing the tests (whether written and/or road) if you don't have to. And don't be shocked either, at the higher licensing and registration fees that you have to pay there, compared to here in the USA...

Good luck with the rest of your Canadian immigration process too, DeadPoolX!

Ant (SSN, SIN, DMV, MTO,.....Yikes!)

The reason they say "don't carry it with you" is because the American SSN, unlike the Canadian SIN, is used for far more than just employment purposes. Just about every organization -- including credit card companies, health insurance providers, universities and employers -- need to see your SSN. Someone's SSN can, in many cases, identify them (and everything about them, too). Although the U.S government states that "Americans are not identified by social security numbers," that's not true and everyone knows it.

In recent years, many organizations have shied away from using the SSN as a catch-all identifier, since the Internet allows for a greater opportunity to conduct "identity theft." For instance, there was a time (as recent as the 1980s) that universities would post test scores outside classrooms and in hallways, using the SSN to identify each student.

As for getting your SSN on a "flimsy piece of paper," that's normal. No one I've ever met has carried their SSN card on them. I'm not even entirely sure where mine is, other than "somewhere at my dad's house." You basically have to memorize it, which is pretty easy (it's almost as long as a ten-digit telephone number) and you'll be required to use it so often, you probably won't forget it anytime soon. The most important part of any SSN are the last four numbers, as most organizations use those as "proof of identity."

[antda 13]

P.S. Someone should mention that a requirement for living in the USA is: "Remember your SSN number!". As for remembering my SSN, lol...for the most part I have it memorized correctly (about 75% of the time), more so due to necessity and frequent use than anything else. I admit, there have been times that I have actually forgot it correctly and have had to ask my husband to help me out there. Heck, I get confused with my own phone number at times, and I don't remember any else's phone number, unless I write it down. Perhaps it's a "numbers amnesia" thing for me? It's no wonder that I don't use the phone much or deal with anything that has to do with long number sequences. Thank goodness the SSN is the only number that I have to memorize!

I guess I'm just useless when it comes to memorzing numbers....

Now with words and songs, that's a different story, as I remember that easily. Maybe if I make up a song, or something like that, it will help me remember my SSN number easier....

Ant (making up and singing a SSN song... ..)

You basically have to memorize it, which is pretty easy (it's almost as long as a ten-digit telephone number) and you'll be required to use it so often, you probably won't forget it anytime soon.

Edited September 30, 2008 by AntandD

[Marilyn. 340]

i have my hubby's SSN memorized but not mine.. I hardly ever use mine..

[DeadPoolX 9]

UPDATE: Immigration Canada lost my PR Card. I now have to fill out a declaration form stating it's not in my possession and wait to receive it all over again. Hopefully this time, they won't lose it.

That's interesting to know about the test scores. Hopefully they don't do that anymore in colleges/universities, as that would be a contributor to identity theft indeed. And it's interesting to know too (I didn't know before), that the last 4 digits are personal identification numbers for each individual person. No wonder my husband and his twin have the same numbers, except for the last 4 digits, and yes, it has caused a lot of confusion before since the numbers are so similar. I wonder what the first 5 digits represent then? Are the first 5 digits other identification information in code (for example, birthday, time of application, etc.?)?

The Social Security Number is a bit weird, but here's how it breaks down:

• The first three digits usually represent the state in which someone was born; however, since the early 1970s, these first three numbers can also be based off the ZIP Code for the individual's mailing address. In other words, if someone immigrates to the U.S., obtains an SSN and lives in Los Angeles, CA but for whatever reason, their mailing address was in Nashville, TN, the first three digits would be assigned according to the latter.
• The middle two digits are merely "group numbers." They assign the individual to a group and also serve to break the number up into a more easily memorized form.
• The last four digits are "serial numbers" and identify the person themselves.

It's a bit convoluted, but Social Security was originally intended to be a temporary measure during the Great Depression and perhaps shortly thereafter. It was never designed to become a permanent program and last this long, which may explain the difficulties the U.S. is having with it today.

By the way, DeadPoolX, when you do apply for your driver's license in Canada, you should definitely ask if you can have a direct transfer of your US driver's license. No point in doing the tests (whether written and/or road) if you don't have to. And don't be shocked either, at the higher licensing and registration fees that you have to pay there, compared to here in the USA...

I've looked into that and it seems I need to provide "proof" that I've been driving for "two or more years" before I can simply trade in my Texas license; otherwise, I'll be required to retake the tests. My Texas DL doesn't have an issue date; however, these licenses are good for six years and I recently had to renew mine. The DMV here may not know this, and without an issue date, they'd only have my word to go on and the driver's age is meaningless. I've been driving nonstop since I was 15 (I'll be 29 in less than a month), so I think I have the experience. I've requested documented evidence of my driving record from the Texas Department of Transportation, which should be enough.

Edited October 11, 2008 by DeadPoolX

[Reba 2]

Check the Texas DMV website and see if you can get a printout of your driving record. We call them "driver abstracts" in Canada, it may be something similar in the US.

Its how I got insurance here when I moved to the US without having to pay exhorbitant premiums.

[antda 13]

Hi DeadPoolX,

Thanks for your reply. Oh my gosh! I can't believe that Immigration Canada actually lost your PR card! I hope that by you filing out a declaration, they should re-send/re-issue you a new replacement one, which you hopefully will get soon. By the way, how exactly does the government lose a card? I've heard of government losing one's paperwork before, but to actually lose a card...wow..

Thanks too, for that interesting information about the breakdown of a Social Security Number. By the way, where did you find out this info, if you don't mind me asking? Yes, it's good to learn something new like this. I'll share this information with my husband too, as we were wondering about his and his twin's numbers before, thinking it was based on birthday or something like that.

Ok, based on the theory of the meaning of the numbers you suggested, I still have to wonder: Why my and my husband's first three digits are different, even though both applied at the same local SSA office (lol..though many years apart, of course)? What exactly is a "group number", and what consitutes an individual being categorized in one group, versus another? Ah, the mysteries of the SSN...

As for your Canadian driver's license, yes, do obtain a record from the Texas DMV about your previous driving record. You definitely have the previous driving experience, so they shouldn't question that. And you definitely do not want to do any driving tests all over again when you don't have to (especially with the MTO in Ontario, where they have a really messed up triple testing graduated licensing system). That's odd that your Texas license doesn't have an issue date. Do all driver's licenses in Texas have no issue dates? Meanwhile, if your US license is still valid, I think you can still drive around in Canada with that, while your PR card is processing and you haven't gotten your Canadian license yet (though check first just to be sure).

Good luck in getting your PR card situation sorted out and Good luck in getting your Texas driving record and in eventually getting your Canadian driving license too.

Ant

UPDATE: Immigration Canada lost my PR Card. I now have to fill out a declaration form stating it's not in my possession and wait to receive it all over again. Hopefully this time, they won't lose it.

The Social Security Number is a bit weird, but here's how it breaks down:

• The first three digits usually represent the state in which someone was born; however, since the early 1970s, these first three numbers can also be based off the ZIP Code for the individual's mailing address. In other words, if someone immigrates to the U.S., obtains an SSN and lives in Los Angeles, CA but for whatever reason, their mailing address was in Nashville, TN, the first three digits would be assigned according to the latter.
• The middle two digits are merely "group numbers." They assign the individual to a group and also serve to break the number up into a more easily memorized form.
• The last four digits are "serial numbers" and identify the person themselves.

It's a bit convoluted, but Social Security was originally intended to be a temporary measure during the Great Depression and perhaps shortly thereafter. It was never designed to become a permanent program and last this long, which may explain the difficulties the U.S. is having with it today.

I've looked into that and it seems I need to provide "proof" that I've been driving for "two or more years" before I can simply trade in my Texas license; otherwise, I'll be required to retake the tests. My Texas DL doesn't have an issue date; however, these licenses are good for six years and I recently had to renew mine. The DMV here may not know this, and without an issue date, they'd only have my word to go on and the driver's age is meaningless. I've been driving nonstop since I was 15 (I'll be 29 in less than a month), so I think I have the experience. I've requested documented evidence of my driving record from the Texas Department of Transportation, which should be enough.

[DeadPoolX 9]

Hi DeadPoolX,

Thanks for your reply. Oh my gosh! I can't believe that Immigration Canada actually lost your PR card! I hope that by you filing out a declaration, they should re-send/re-issue you a new replacement one, which you hopefully will get soon. By the way, how exactly does the government lose a card? I've heard of government losing one's paperwork before, but to actually lose a card...wow..

Thanks too, for that interesting information about the breakdown of a Social Security Number. By the way, where did you find out this info, if you don't mind me asking? Yes, it's good to learn something new like this. I'll share this information with my husband too, as we were wondering about his and his twin's numbers before, thinking it was based on birthday or something like that.

Ok, based on the theory of the meaning of the numbers you suggested, I still have to wonder: Why my and my husband's first three digits are different, even though both applied at the same local SSA office (lol..though many years apart, of course)? What exactly is a "group number", and what consitutes an individual being categorized in one group, versus another? Ah, the mysteries of the SSN...

As for your Canadian driver's license, yes, do obtain a record from the Texas DMV about your previous driving record. You definitely have the previous driving experience, so they shouldn't question that. And you definitely do not want to do any driving tests all over again when you don't have to (especially with the MTO in Ontario, where they have a really messed up triple testing graduated licensing system). That's odd that your Texas license doesn't have an issue date. Do all driver's licenses in Texas have no issue dates? Meanwhile, if your US license is still valid, I think you can still drive around in Canada with that, while your PR card is processing and you haven't gotten your Canadian license yet (though check first just to be sure).

Good luck in getting your PR card situation sorted out and Good luck in getting your Texas driving record and in eventually getting your Canadian driving license too.

Ant

I honestly have no clue how they lost my PR Card. Apparently, Immigration Canada is blaming the whole ordeal on Canada Post (although they originally attempted to somehow blame me). I'm not quite sure why I'd try to lose my own PR Card -- especially with Thanksgiving coming up in the U.S. -- but they pointed at me first.

I even got asked the question, "Are you sure you didn't overlook or fail to recognize your card?" Granted, I've never immigrated to another country before, but I could probably figure out what my PR Card looks like, especially since it'd come in some sort of package or envelope marked by the government.

I learned the SSN info mostly through various websites online. The explanations are all there, but it's still a little confusing. That's probably because no one really knows what's going on.

There could be many reasons why you and your husband's SSN don't match. One possibility is that since the first three digits can be based off the individual's mailing address (and not the office itself), your husband may have lived in a different ZIP Code at the time of his birth. His parents might have merely acquired his SSN a short time later. For all we know, that office could have been the closest one nearby or maybe the ZIP Codes changed through the years. That's far less common, but it can happen.

I've already requested documentation from the DPS (the Texan version of the DMV) and it's arrived at my dad's house. He'll be sending it up to me shortly. I don't know why Texan licenses lack an issue date. Perhaps they feel everyone will know that a DL is only good for six months, so if someone needs to know that info, they could subtract six from the expiration date. I can legally drive on my American DL for a total of three months (in whichever province I live in), after which I must switch to a Canadian DL if I wish to drive. Technically speaking, I could jump from one province to the next and extend the lifespan of my U.S. driver's license, but that's more trouble than it's worth (and a temporary measure, at best).

[antda 13]

Hi DeadPoolX,

Thanks for your reply. Yup, that’s what all government agencies and businesses do…shift the blame onto the “customer”. Yes, Canada Post has been known to lose and/or misdirect mail before (lol…I’m saying this based on personal experience…thank goodness I live in the USA now and find that dealing with USPS is so much better and less expensive). But in the case, I don’t think that Canada Post is to blame. And likewise, you’re not to blame either, as “Why would someone lose something as important thing as a PR card on purpose and then report it missing?” By the way, without your PR card, can you still carry around your “Record of Landing” papers (I think that’s what it’s still called) to prove your Canadian Permanent Residency while you’re still waiting for your PR card? I agree, they shouldn’t delay this for you anymore, as you need it for traveling and other purposes. Lol…by the way, it’s “Canadian Thanksgiving” this week, so maybe they “went on holiday” and hence “delayed” processing your card?

Funny, I remember when I was a Canadian immigrant/permanent resident (like you I “immigrated” to Canada too, but instead as a child from another country), there was no such thing as a PR Card. So to show permanent residency status, we only had the “Record of Landing” paperwork to prove such (which I still kept as a souvenir, along with my Canadian Naturalization Certificate and Card). It must be a recent thing that Canadian Permanent Residents have a PR Card now, since they didn’t have such before. Lol…my guess is that they copied the US with that idea, as they were the first ones with the “Permanent Resident Card” in the first place.

Funny too, how Canadians have both Naturalization Cards and Certificates for Citizenship, and the US only has Naturalization Certificates for Citizenship. Maybe the US can pick up a thing or to from the Canadians there, as it’s not as convenient (and probably not safe and not recommended to do) to carry around a Naturalization Certificate to prove US Citizenship, without having to pay extra for a US passport and/or passport card. By the way, are you going to pursue Canadian Citizenship in the future (4 years later)?

And no, “Canadian PR Cards” are not hard to miss either (lol…It’s the red/pink one with the maple leaf, holograms, and the words “Permanent Resident” on it, right?), so I don’t know as to why they would say “Did you fail to miss it?” and blame you for it. And yes, an envelope marked with the words “Immigration Canada” should more likely than not contain your card in it, which you wouldn’t throw away (lol…who would throw away such a thing?).

That’s interesting that you learned SSN information through various websites online. With information online especially government information is all confusing and hard to understand. But I guess when one does their research they will eventually find the information they need. For example, here on VJ, I’ve certainly learned a lot of information about the immigration process, which I never knew about before.

That makes sense too, that the first three digits of my husband’s and my SSN’s don’t match, as when we applied for SSNs it was many years apart, and my husband’s address at birth is a different address from where we are living at now. The ZIP codes haven’t changed, nor has the local SSA office (lol…which is not local at all really for us), as they are still the same before many years ago and now. So it’s maybe more so time that makes the difference there.

That’s odd that in Texas the DMV would be called the DPS (lol…sounds like DHS), that they don’t have licenses with an issue date, and that licenses are only good for six months (versus other states that have licenses valid for years at a time, heck my DL is even valid for longer than my current green card is…lol…) A Texan would probably know that a Texas license is valid for 6 months only. But anyone else probably wouldn’t know that, and in some cases, such as immigration, would need proof of such. It sure sounds inconvenient too, that one would have to renew their driver’s license every 6 months, and hopefully they don’t charge a lot in Texas to do that. That’s good that you got your DL documentation sent to your Dad’s house to send to you, so when you’re ready to transfer your US DL for a Canadian one, you can do such quickly without any problems. I guess for the next three months, you can drive with your US license. (three months from the time/date of your “legal residency”, as stated on your PR card, I assume?) so you won’t have to worry about that for awhile. And meanwhile since you don’t have the PR card and “legal Canadian status” yet, can you still drive as a “visitor”, which will extend your US license even more? Not sure if “jumping around” form one province to the next would extend your US license, but if it works temporarily and not to much trouble, I suppose you can do that too.

Good luck in getting your PR Card situation sorted out and in getting your Canadian driver’s license later on too, DeadPoolX.

Ant

I honestly have no clue how they lost my PR Card. Apparently, Immigration Canada is blaming the whole ordeal on Canada Post (although they originally attempted to somehow blame me). I'm not quite sure why I'd try to lose my own PR Card -- especially with Thanksgiving coming up in the U.S. -- but they pointed at me first.

I even got asked the question, "Are you sure you didn't overlook or fail to recognize your card?" Granted, I've never immigrated to another country before, but I could probably figure out what my PR Card looks like, especially since it'd come in some sort of package or envelope marked by the government.

I learned the SSN info mostly through various websites online. The explanations are all there, but it's still a little confusing. That's probably because no one really knows what's going on.

There could be many reasons why you and your husband's SSN don't match. One possibility is that since the first three digits can be based off the individual's mailing address (and not the office itself), your husband may have lived in a different ZIP Code at the time of his birth. His parents might have merely acquired his SSN a short time later. For all we know, that office could have been the closest one nearby or maybe the ZIP Codes changed through the years. That's far less common, but it can happen.

I've already requested documentation from the DPS (the Texan version of the DMV) and it's arrived at my dad's house. He'll be sending it up to me shortly. I don't know why Texan licenses lack an issue date. Perhaps they feel everyone will know that a DL is only good for six months, so if someone needs to know that info, they could subtract six from the expiration date. I can legally drive on my American DL for a total of three months (in whichever province I live in), after which I must switch to a Canadian DL if I wish to drive. Technically speaking, I could jump from one province to the next and extend the lifespan of my U.S. driver's license, but that's more trouble than it's worth (and a temporary measure, at best).

[DeadPoolX 9]

I don't know when Canada created the PR Card, but I need it to be allowed back into the country if traveling by a commercial carrier. In other words, if I were to use a train, ship, or airline, I'd need it. Technically speaking, I should be able to use my own car and drive back-and-forth without needing the PR Card, but I wouldn't want to chance it. I've found that more than half the time government employees don't know their own rules and policies (and even if they do, they don't bother following them).

My Record of Landing is not a "travel worthy" document. It even says so on it. I'd imagine this is mostly for commercial carriers again, in the event I decided to suddenly take West Jet to Las Vegas for the weekend. I find it funny that I could, theoretically, drive down to the closest major airport in the U.S. and fly from there. But once again, I'd be taking a chance that CBSA would let me back in (as a PR) and the whole process would probably be very hectic, time consuming and cost much more.

As for the DPS, it stands for "Department of Public Safety." Why isn't it called the DMV? Who knows? Texans like to be unique. I also made a glaring error before about driver's licenses in Texas. For some reason, I wrote "six months" when I meant "six years." There's obviously a small difference involved.

[trailmix 77]

The PR Card came in to being about 6 years ago - prior to that the IMM 1000 was all the immigrant had to prove their PR status. I must say it was a tad annoying to have to fill out all that paperwork again and do the photos and guarantor thing when we had only done the immigration package a couple of years before that - plus having to pay another fee.