If it wasn't for immigration

[SapphireDreams 71]

We actually are pretty much taking our time and have been dating for over 5 years now... so I don't really feel rushed. We're not even officially engaged yet. While we are on a timeline persay, but we don't really consider that timeline our 'official' timeline. He knows he has to propose at some point before our interview but I always joke that we'll probably be married before we're engaged..

Dating long distance for 5+ years takes a lot of commitment and dedication, so that really helped us to both seal the deal for us. Also, while I wouldn't say I'm extremely religious or anything, we were both raised Catholic and so marriage is a natural step for us and our beliefs. I do feel connected to my faith and interested in receiving all of the sacraments.

[Melissa&Vadim 0]

This is a thought-provoking topic!

As for us, we came from two different worlds in every way. Vadim had never been married. I had been with my son's father for over ten years. My first marriage was such a terrible relationship that when I met Vadim, I had already been separated for a long time (yeah, family court, orders of protection, you name it) and definitely NOT looking for a new relationship. All in all, with trying to earn enough money to support my son and I, and trying to make enough money to pay the divorce lawyer for over a year (before we could even apply for a K1), Vadim and I had a lot of time to get to know each other as much as two people can in a long distance relationship. I don't regret that part, because it gave me enough time to get over the past and get ready for a new future. We were able to have a total of four trips in two years together, which was priceless.

I have to admit though, when we learned about what we would have to do in order to be together, it was overwhelming. When he started to mention the idea of marriage, there were times when I had panic attacks. I remember once, actually just hanging up the phone because I just panicked...not the behavior one would expect from the person my coworkers have called "the calmest person they know". Obviously, I was not at all ready yet to even think of marriage. Because of that, I don't feel too badly about having to wait for our K1. Now, I have no doubts about making the right decision. So, in the end, would I have gotten married any sooner or later if not for the immigration process? I don't know. I don't know if I would have ever gotten married again. If I hadn't met Vadim, who showed infinite patience and understanding, I'm pretty sure the answer would be No, never, not at all!

Melissa

[Sprailenes 47]

Yea its a really hard question but I just wasn't the type to want to get married. I always thought being with someone didn't require vows, or a ring or a certificate.

In fact after I got married I was really happy, but a part of me kind of felt sad, and I know that sounds funny, but when we were at our court house wedding, and the judge said: "Husband and wife" I suddenly felt dizzy and I wanted to faint, I felt like I was giving something up. Kind of a cynical way of looking at things. But thats another reason I kept my maiden name, I didn't want to feel like I was losing my entire self. I think too much...over thinking...always. Its my downfall.

Though now that I look back, I feel that I gained something. Mike comes from a traditional family, so I am pretty sure he would have eventually wanted to get married, while I was just happy being with someone without all of the legalities.

Though when we went to weddings, I kind of deep down inside thought it would be nice to have a big party like that with a cake.

I lurrrve cake.

[Carlawarla 1]

Gene and I weren't looking for love when we first started chatting, but it grew and blossomed from us being best on-line friends. We found the trials and tribulations of security clearances from Gene's work the hardest part to get through. Two years of not knowing if he'd have to leave his employ or not. Once we were through that, the immigration wait didn't seem so long. We knew we were destined to be together, and nothing but marriage would suffice. Gene had never been married, but that is what he wanted...I had a horrible marriage, but never even thought about anything other than marriage to Gene. If we would have been in the same country when we met, we would have been married far sooner than we were. Maybe that comes from our age.

[Reba 2]

If it hadn't been a requirement for immigration that we be married then no, we probably would not have got married. We would have been quite happy just living together, had the law allowed it.

[KiminON 0]

i never thought i'd get married and it was never important to me to have the fairytale wedding and all. (and i didn't)

but, if i lived near to my now husband, we'd still be married as he's an old fashioned southern boy. we just wouldn't have done it so soon i'm sure.

[Caladan 19]

Ooh, good question.

Thinking about it honestly, I think immigration might actually have delayed when we could get married. I didn't want to rush into anything, and we'd been dating three and a half years when C. proposed. But if there hadn't been a border, he probably would have moved here much sooner, so we might have felt ready to be married sooner. In any case, I didn't want to rush into a marriage just to get him here.

[Sprailenes 47]

I remember when he came to live with me in Canada about a year after we met in person, he lived with me for two years and we talked about marriage so that he could stay in Canada. But we never did it. I don't know why, perhaps we really weren't ready. We wasted two years in Canada, and didn't really do anything...sometimes I regret it because now look where I am.

I don't mind it as much anymore though, I am getting used to it.

[aravis227 1]

I guess I'm kind of a traditional girl. I always knew I wanted to find that guy who made me want to be married. It wasn't necessarily that I wanted the ring and the dress and the paper...I wanted to find someone that I loved enough to WANT to make that commitment. I also really want kids, and being the traditional girl that I am...that means marriage first. I absolutely think Dennis and I would have ended up married either way...however, I think we would have waited a little bit longer before doing it.

[rae_and_scott 1]

...I always joke that we'll probably be married before we're engaged..

I used to joke about that too until it happened; Scott never actually proposed. I'm actually really not happy about that fact, but it is what it is, and I am happy in my marriage, and I know that's more important.

We definitely would be married, but the timing of it was forced by immigration. Sometimes I think we would have been married earlier had we not been separated for 3 years (not waiting for the K for 3 years, but we were just trying to figure out how to be together for a long time before we decided marriage was the route we'd go). So we were together for almost 6 years when we got married. But then, my husband does seem to move slowly, so maybe we wouldn't be married yet if we were a "normal" couple who are allowed to live together in the same country. But I definitely think it's the path we were on, since from the beginning of our relationship we talked about feeling that we felt we were the "right ones" for each other.

I am one of those girls dreaming of that perfect wedding, and I'm planning it now, b/c we had to go to City Hall to do the legal thing the way we did (and we want the real one to be in Montreal). I love being married, but it's starting to get confusing. As I start talking with vendors I'm referring to my husband as my fiance just b/c it's easier than explaining the whole situation!

[JenT 0]

I never wanted to be married again and I would not have married David had it not been a 'condition' of us being together in the US. We will soon be divorced... I posted about this in the "Effects" forum... and I will never, EVER do this again (immigration and/or marriage).

Jen

[thetreble 19]

Ah Jen...I wrote to you in that forum. I'm so sorry, once again.

[JenT 0]

Ah Jen...I wrote to you in that forum. I'm so sorry, once again.

Thank you I did appreciate your post.

[SpiritAlight 1]

Marriage and Love

~ Emma Goldman, written in 1917 (or before)

The popular notion about marriage and love is that they are synonymous, that they spring from the same motives, and cover the same human needs. Like most popular notions this also rests not on actual facts, but on superstition.

Marriage and love have nothing in common; they are as far apart as the poles; are, in fact, antagonistic to each other. No doubt some marriages have been the result of love. Not, however, because love could assert itself only in marriage; much rather is it because few people can completely outgrow a convention. There are today large numbers of men and women to whom marriage is naught but a farce, but who submit to it for the sake of public opinion. At any rate, while it is true that some marriages are based on love, and while it is equally true that in some cases love continues in married life, I maintain that it does so regardless of marriage, and not because of it.

On the other hand, it is utterly false that love results from marriage. On rare occasions one does hear of a miraculous case of a married couple falling in love after marriage, but on close examination it will be found that it is a mere adjustment to the inevitable. Certainly the growing-used to each other is far away from the spontaneity, the intensity, and beauty of love, without which the intimacy of marriage must prove degrading to both the woman and the man.

Marriage is primarily an economic arrangement, an insurance pact. It differs from the ordinary life insurance agreement only in that it is more binding, more exacting. Its returns are insignificantly small compared with the investments. In taking out an insurance policy one pays for it in dollars and cents, always at liberty to discontinue payments. If, however, woman's premium is her husband, she pays for it with her name, her privacy, her self-respect, her very life, "until death doth part." Moreover, the marriage insurance condemns her to life-long dependency, to parasitism, to complete uselessness, individual as well as social. Man, too, pays his toll, but as his sphere is wider, marriage does not limit him as much as woman. He feels his chains more in an economic sense.

Thus Dante's motto over Inferno applies with equal force to marriage. "Ye who enter here leave all hope behind."

That marriage is a failure none but the very stupid will deny. One has but to glance over the statistics of divorce to realize how bitter a failure marriage really is. Nor will the stereotyped Philistine argument that the laxity of divorce laws and the growing looseness of woman account for the fact that: first, every twelfth marriage ends in divorce; second, that since 1870 divorces have increased from 28 to 73 for every hundred thousand population; third, that adultery, since 1867, as ground for divorce, has increased 270.8 per cent.; fourth, that desertion increased 369.8 per cent.

Added to these startling figures is a vast amount of material, dramatic and literary, further elucidating this subject. Robert Herrick, in TOGETHER; Pinero, in MID-CHANNEL; Eugene Walter, in PAID IN FULL, and scores of other writers are discussing the barrenness, the monotony, the sordidness, the inadequacy of marriage as a factor for harmony and understanding.

The thoughtful social student will not content himself with the popular superficial excuse for this phenomenon. He will have to dig deeper into the very life of the sexes to know why marriage proves so disastrous.

Edward Carpenter says that behind every marriage stands the life-long environment of the two sexes; an environment so different from each other that man and woman must remain strangers. Separated by an insurmountable wall of superstition, custom, and habit, marriage has not the potentiality of developing knowledge of, and respect for, each other, without which every union is doomed to failure.

Henrik Ibsen, the hater of all social shams, was probably the first to realize this great truth. Nora leaves her husband, not--as the stupid critic would have it--because she is tired of her responsibilities or feels the need of woman's rights, but because she has come to know that for eight years she had lived with a stranger and borne him children. Can there be anything more humiliating, more degrading than a life-long proximity between two strangers? No need for the woman to know anything of the man, save his income. As to the knowledge of the woman--what is there to know except that she has a pleasing appearance? We have not yet outgrown the theologic myth that woman has no soul, that she is a mere appendix to man, made out of his rib just for the convenience of the gentleman who was so strong that he was afraid of his own shadow.

Perchance the poor quality of the material whence woman comes is responsible for her inferiority. At any rate, woman has no soul--what is there to know about her? Besides, the less soul a woman has the greater her asset as a wife, the more readily will she absorb herself in her husband. It is this slavish acquiescence to man's superiority that has kept the marriage institution seemingly intact for so long a period. Now that woman is coming into her own, now that she is actually growing aware of herself as being outside of the master's grace, the sacred institution of marriage is gradually being undermined, and no amount of sentimental lamentation can stay it.

From infancy, almost, the average girl is told that marriage is her ultimate goal; therefore her training and education must be directed towards that end. Like the mute beast fattened for slaughter, she is prepared for that. Yet, strange to say, she is allowed to know much less about her function as wife and mother than the ordinary artisan of his trade. It is indecent and filthy for a respectable girl to know anything of the marital relation. Oh, for the inconsistency of respectability, that needs the marriage vow to turn something which is filthy into the purest and most sacred arrangement that none dare question or criticize. Yet that is exactly the attitude of the average upholder of marriage. The prospective wife and mother is kept in complete ignorance of her only asset in the competitive field--sex. Thus she enters into life-long relations with a man only to find herself shocked, repelled, outraged beyond measure by the most natural and healthy instinct, sex. It is safe to say that a large percentage of the unhappiness, misery, distress, and physical suffering of matrimony is due to the criminal ignorance in sex matters that is being extolled as a great virtue. Nor is it at all an exaggeration when I say that more than one home has been broken up because of this deplorable fact.

If, however, woman is free and big enough to learn the mystery of sex without the sanction of State or Church, she will stand condemned as utterly unfit to become the wife of a "good" man, his goodness consisting of an empty brain and plenty of money. Can there be anything more outrageous than the idea that a healthy, grown woman, full of life and passion, must deny nature's demand, must subdue her most intense craving, undermine her health and break her spirit, must stunt her vision, abstain from the depth and glory of sex experience until a "good" man comes along to take her unto himself as a wife? That is precisely what marriage means. How can such an arrangement end except in failure? This is one, though not the least important, factor of marriage, which differentiates it from love.

Ours is a practical age. The time when Romeo and Juliet risked the wrath of their fathers for love, when Gretchen exposed herself to the gossip of her neighbors for love, is no more. If, on rare occasions, young people allow themselves the luxury of romance, they are taken in care by the elders, drilled and pounded until they become "sensible."

The moral lesson instilled in the girl is not whether the man has aroused her love, but rather is it, "How much?" The important and only God of practical American life: Can the man make a living? can he support a wife? That is the only thing that justifies marriage. Gradually this saturates every thought of the girl; her dreams are not of moonlight and kisses, of laughter and tears; she dreams of shopping tours and bargain counters. This soul poverty and sordidness are the elements inherent in the marriage institution. The State and Church approve of no other ideal, simply because it is the one that necessitates the State and Church control of men and women.

Doubtless there are people who continue to consider love above dollars and cents. Particularly this is true of that class whom economic necessity has forced to become self-supporting. The tremendous change in woman's position, wrought by that mighty factor, is indeed phenomenal when we reflect that it is but a short time since she has entered the industrial arena. Six million women wage workers; six million women, who have equal right with men to be exploited, to be robbed, to go on strike; aye, to starve even. Anything more, my lord? Yes, six million wage workers in every walk of life, from the highest brain work to the mines and railroad tracks; yes, even detectives and policemen. Surely the emancipation is complete.

Yet with all that, but a very small number of the vast army of women wage workers look upon work as a permanent issue, in the same light as does man. No matter how decrepit the latter, he has been taught to be independent, self-supporting. Oh, I know that no one is really independent in our economic treadmill; still, the poorest specimen of a man hates to be a parasite; to be known as such, at any rate.

The woman considers her position as worker transitory, to be thrown aside for the first bidder. That is why it is infinitely harder to organize women than men. "Why should I join a union? I am going to get married, to have a home." Has she not been taught from infancy to look upon that as her ultimate calling? She learns soon enough that the home, though not so large a prison as the factory, has more solid doors and bars. It has a keeper so faithful that naught can escape him. The most tragic part, however, is that the home no longer frees her from wage slavery; it only increases her task.

According to the latest statistics submitted before a Committee "on labor and wages, and congestion of population," ten per cent. of the wage workers in New York City alone are married, yet they must continue to work at the most poorly paid labor in the world. Add to this horrible aspect the drudgery of housework, and what remains of the protection and glory of the home? As a matter of fact, even the middle-class girl in marriage can not speak of her home, since it is the man who creates her sphere. It is not important whether the husband is a brute or a darling. What I wish to prove is that marriage guarantees woman a home only by the grace of her husband. There she moves about in HIS home, year after year, until her aspect of life and human affairs becomes as flat, narrow, and drab as her surroundings. Small wonder if she becomes a nag, petty, quarrelsome, gossipy, unbearable, thus driving the man from the house. She could not go, if she wanted to; there is no place to go. Besides, a short period of married life, of complete surrender of all faculties, absolutely incapacitates the average woman for the outside world. She becomes reckless in appearance, clumsy in her movements, dependent in her decisions, cowardly in her judgment, a weight and a bore, which most men grow to hate and despise. Wonderfully inspiring atmosphere for the bearing of life, is it not?

But the child, how is it to be protected, if not for marriage? After all, is not that the most important consideration? The sham, the hypocrisy of it! Marriage protecting the child, yet thousands of children destitute and homeless. Marriage protecting the child, yet orphan asylums and reformatories overcrowded, the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children keeping busy in rescuing the little victims from "loving" parents, to place them under more loving care, the Gerry Society. Oh, the mockery of it!

Marriage may have the power to bring the horse to water, but has it ever made him drink? The law will place the father under arrest, and put him in convict's clothes; but has that ever stilled the hunger of the child? If the parent has no work, or if he hides his identity, what does marriage do then? It invokes the law to bring the man to "justice," to put him safely behind closed doors; his labor, however, goes not to the child, but to the State. The child receives but a blighted memory of his father's stripes.

As to the protection of the woman,--therein lies the curse of marriage. Not that it really protects her, but the very idea is so revolting, such an outrage and insult on life, so degrading to human dignity, as to forever condemn this parasitic institution.

It is like that other paternal arrangement--capitalism. It robs man of his birthright, stunts his growth, poisons his body, keeps him in ignorance, in poverty, and dependence, and then institutes charities that thrive on the last vestige of man's self-respect.

The institution of marriage makes a parasite of woman, an absolute dependent. It incapacitates her for life's struggle, annihilates her social consciousness, paralyzes her imagination, and then imposes its gracious protection, which is in reality a snare, a travesty on human character.

If motherhood is the highest fulfillment of woman's nature, what other protection does it need, save love and freedom? Marriage but defiles, outrages, and corrupts her fulfillment. Does it not say to woman, Only when you follow me shall you bring forth life? Does it not condemn her to the block, does it not degrade and shame her if she refuses to buy her right to motherhood by selling herself? Does not marriage only sanction motherhood, even though conceived in hatred, in compulsion? Yet, if motherhood be of free choice, of love, of ecstasy, of defiant passion, does it not place a crown of thorns upon an innocent head and carve in letters of blood the hideous epithet, #######? Were marriage to contain all the virtues claimed for it, its crimes against motherhood would exclude it forever from the realm of love.

Love, the strongest and deepest element in all life, the harbinger of hope, of joy, of ecstasy; love, the defier of all laws, of all conventions; love, the freest, the most powerful moulder of human destiny; how can such an all-compelling force be synonymous with that poor little State and Church-begotten weed, marriage?

Free love? As if love is anything but free! Man has bought brains, but all the millions in the world have failed to buy love. Man has subdued bodies, but all the power on earth has been unable to subdue love. Man has conquered whole nations, but all his armies could not conquer love. Man has chained and fettered the spirit, but he has been utterly helpless before love. High on a throne, with all the splendor and pomp his gold can command, man is yet poor and desolate, if love passes him by. And if it stays, the poorest hovel is radiant with warmth, with life and color. Thus love has the magic power to make of a beggar a king. Yes, love is free; it can dwell in no other atmosphere. In freedom it gives itself unreservedly, abundantly, completely. All the laws on the statutes, all the courts in the universe, cannot tear it from the soil, once love has taken root. If, however, the soil is sterile, how can marriage make it bear fruit? It is like the last desperate struggle of fleeting life against death.

Love needs no protection; it is its own protection. So long as love begets life no child is deserted, or hungry, or famished for the want of affection. I know this to be true. I know women who became mothers in freedom by the men they loved. Few children in wedlock enjoy the care, the protection, the devotion free motherhood is capable of bestowing.

The defenders of authority dread the advent of a free motherhood, lest it will rob them of their prey. Who would fight wars? Who would create wealth? Who would make the policeman, the jailer, if woman were to refuse the indiscriminate breeding of children? The race, the race! shouts the king, the president, the capitalist, the priest. The race must be preserved, though woman be degraded to a mere machine,--and the marriage institution is our only safety valve against the pernicious sex awakening of woman. But in vain these frantic efforts to maintain a state of bondage. In vain, too, the edicts of the Church, the mad attacks of rulers, in vain even the arm of the law. Woman no longer wants to be a party to the production of a race of sickly, feeble, decrepit, wretched human beings, who have neither the strength nor moral courage to throw off the yoke of poverty and slavery. Instead she desires fewer and better children, begotten and reared in love and through free choice; not by compulsion, as marriage imposes. Our pseudo-moralists have yet to learn the deep sense of responsibility toward the child, that love in freedom has awakened in the breast of woman. Rather would she forego forever the glory of motherhood than bring forth life in an atmosphere that breathes only destruction and death. And if she does become a mother, it is to give to the child the deepest and best her being can yield. To grow with the child is her motto; she knows that in that manner alone can she help build true manhood and womanhood.

Ibsen must have had a vision of a free mother, when, with a master stroke, he portrayed Mrs. Alving. She was the ideal mother because she had outgrown marriage and all its horrors, because she had broken her chains, and set her spirit free to soar until it returned a personality, regenerated and strong. Alas, it was too late to rescue her life's joy, her Oswald; but not too late to realize that love in freedom is the only condition of a beautiful life. Those who, like Mrs. Alving, have paid with blood and tears for their spiritual awakening, repudiate marriage as an imposition, a shallow, empty mockery. They know, whether love last but one brief span of time or for eternity, it is the only creative, inspiring, elevating basis for a new race, a new world.

In our present pygmy state love is indeed a stranger to most people. Misunderstood and shunned, it rarely takes root; or if it does, it soon withers and dies. Its delicate fiber can not endure the stress and strain of the daily grind. Its soul is too complex to adjust itself to the slimy woof of our social fabric. It weeps and moans and suffers with those who have need of it, yet lack the capacity to rise to love's summit.

Some day, some day men and women will rise, they will reach the mountain peak, they will meet big and strong and free, ready to receive, to partake, and to bask in the golden rays of love. What fancy, what imagination, what poetic genius can foresee even approximately the potentialities of such a force in the life of men and women. If the world is ever to give birth to true companionship and oneness, not marriage, but love will be the parent.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

me: So yes, I have a problem with the "institution of marriage".

It carries so much negative energy from days old.

The immigration process for allowing people who want to be together, needs updating.

Look at the divorce stats.

Why force the hand of marriage?

And don't get me started on the silliness (disrespectful, unaccountable, and illogical process) of immigration.

Perhaps, if we were allowed to live and work and be a resident (just because you want to live there, and for no other reason) in any country, and we could choose to marry or not, then things would make sense...and be respectful to each of our individual needs.

Know what I mean, jelly bean?

In the end, no one is truly forced to do anything, however coercion might be a better word.

Ha!

Excuse this tremendously long post.

I thought some of you might be interested in some feminist history!

Edited September 29, 2008 by SpiritAlight

[Cassie 8]

Interesting article, but I must respectfully disagree, particularly this paragraph and particularly the bolded:

Marriage is primarily an economic arrangement, an insurance pact. It differs from the ordinary life insurance agreement only in that it is more binding, more exacting. Its returns are insignificantly small compared with the investments. In taking out an insurance policy one pays for it in dollars and cents, always at liberty to discontinue payments. If, however, woman's premium is her husband, she pays for it with her name, her privacy, her self-respect, her very life, "until death doth part." Moreover, the marriage insurance condemns her to life-long dependency, to parasitism, to complete uselessness, individual as well as social. Man, too, pays his toll, but as his sphere is wider, marriage does not limit him as much as woman. He feels his chains more in an economic sense.

I don't see myself condemned to uselessness at all!