Political Threads

[Heracles 417]

It shouldn't be capital punishment in some cases. There are too many cases where innocent men or women have been convicted and, shamefully, put to death. In a flawed system, death is the wrong price to pay. For one, if we're talking just legally here, there is no "justice." How can there be social justice if death is the price?

I don't know about that considering the ridiculous crime rate in the US. Crime is a huge problem here. Yes another one of those issues that are extremely important abroad but on the back burner here for issues such as rights. If someone lives in nice area, sure crime is not a problem. But for everyone else who does not have the privilege, it is a different story. You act as if people stealing pizza slices are put to death. Serial killers and anyone else who has been convicted of committing a heinous crime should be put to death. They have given up their right to function within a free society. And I certainly do not want to pay for them to stay in prison when the money could be better spent helping those who desperately need it; Like the victims and their families who are left suffering for the rest of their lives.

[jundp 191]

I imagine we'll have to agree to disagree as most people outside of my faith community anyway, don't agree with my views on capital punishment and abortion. In fact, most Christians I know, are anti-abortion and pro-capital punishment. Most Democrats I know are pro-choice and anti-death penalty.It boggles my mind.

yes I noticed that too, most republicans and or christians are as you said, anti abortion and pro CP, and most democrats are pro choice, anti death penalty, and I alwys wondered why that was.... pretty interesting!

We may not agree with each other, but it's nice to be able to see the other person's POV.

Although, I suspect we probably agree on more than we think....

[nowhereman 1]

I call em like I see them & although both parties are guilty of misusing labels, rhetoric, distortions of the truth, etc. it's my opinion that Republicans have been much more guilty of this over the past 8 years. Of course the Bush administration is (again in my opinion) largely responsible for this, due to the dirty tactics of scumbags like Karl Rove. Although Rove is a complete scumbag he's a smart one, because he knows that if you throw enough manure on the wall some will stick.

I was a Reagan follower back in the late 80's but the antics of the Bush administration have pushed my views to the left... I would "label" myself a moderate independent at this point. Once the bad taste of the Bush administration leaves my mouth I may vote for some Republicans again, but for the next election I feel that they've lost the right to run this country. Others would argue that the conduct of the Democrats have pushed them farther right & to each his own... it's a free country.

Internal bickering is the cause of failure for quite a number of superpowers throughout history. The United States is clearly heading this way. Or towards another civil war.

I totally disagree with your political views, but we do agree on this. I see the USA going down the same path as the Romans did... falling apart internally due to bickering, corruption & greed. We would strongly disagree on where the lion's share of the blame lies, but we both agree that this is a growing & serious issue.

Aficionado is my kind of guy; he's not intimidated by the OT PC bullies. And he's right, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. There are few conservatives who charge into a thread with both barrels blazing, spewing insults. That is a longtime liberal tactic here, much like what libs do at campus speaking engagements when the speaker is perceived to be conservative. You can't throw pies, so you sling invectives.

It's demonstrable that there are some here who enjoy taunting and insulting those who don't see eye to eye with them. Or, you see yoursselves as crusaders intent on ridding your "space" of those you deem to be undesireable. If you get a group on a thread like this, it's like red meat. The sad fact is, you can't even see how rude, nasty and meaningless your responses are in any other context. You don't even believe you're insulting while trying to beat people into your way of thinking. This is such a trip. You want free speech for yourselves, but not for those who disagree with you.

VW you contradict yourself a lot. You cry like a baby when the so called "OT PC bullies" attack you, but applaud Aficionado for exactly the same tactic. There's a word for this: hypocrite. Furthermore you are dead wrong that the main reason why people react so negatively to your posts is that merely disagree with you. One reason that you get these reactions is because your opinions seem to be based on generalizations and exaggerations. Another reason is that after being "attacked" by the "OT PC bullies" you then turn your rhetoric to this person, completely glossing over any inconsistencies in your argument & ignoring any legitimate criticisms to your points of view. Third you clearly despise "liberals" & you have concluded that anyone on this forum who disagrees with you is naturally a liberal so therefore you despise them.

Do you not see the hypocrisy in the way that you think? According to you it's acceptable for Republicans (like Aficionado) to spew insults but when an (alleged) liberal does the same thing you accuse them of being "rude, nasty and meaningless". If others react negatively to you then (according to you) it's because they disagree with you, but in your response you then attempt to trivialize the other person's point of view (which may include insults & personal attacks). In a nutshell you are doing the exact same thing to others that you complain is being done to you!

[~PalmTreeGurl~ 154]

Abortion is legal. Let's not forget that. People need to stop forcing their religion/beliefs on other people, and stop harassing those who are going through an emotionally difficult - but LEGAL - procedure.

dang, well then it would have to work both ways, those with no religious beliefs need to stop harrassing us with religious beliefs ... bcz again religion always plays in politics ... regardless of what side of the pole your on. . .

[IAMX 3,055]

yes I noticed that too, most republicans and or christians are as you said, anti abortion and pro CP, and most democrats are pro choice, anti death penalty, and I alwys wondered why that was.... pretty interesting!

Simple. However much I agree or disagree with abortion (it's irrelevant anyways), it's the woman's body, not mine, no one else's. Her body, her choice. In the death penalty, however much I value or don't value justice or vengeance, the fact that the government has and continues to convict innocent people tells me the system is flawed and has no purpose putting people to death itself representing all of us. One is the government's doing, the other is an individual's doing.

Suicide is also an independent choice however it is far more complicated and difficult to put a precise enough marker on when a person is sane or mentally ill. We've made it a point to suggest any behavior not performed by the masses is an illness. Then that would be used to stop a choice of ending one's own life from occurring.

[Heracles 417]

Is BY still obsessed by not being able to utter the word '***'? What a dumb ####!

What are you talking about you witty fool..

Edited September 22, 2008 by Aficionado

[PlatyPius 5]

dang, well then it would have to work both ways, those with no religious beliefs need to stop harrassing us with religious beliefs ... bcz again religion always plays in politics ... regardless of what side of the pole your on. . .

Do you see ME with a bunch of Pro-Atheist mumbo-jumbo in my signature? No, you don't. I'm not forcing my beliefs on anyone or being obnoxious with them. People who fill up their siggy quota with Jeebus #######, on the other hand.....

[jundp 191]

You act as if people stealing pizza slices are put to death. Serial killers and anyone else who has been convicted of committing a heinous crime should be put to death. They have given up their right to function within a free society. And I certainly do not want to pay for them to stay in prison when the money could be better spent helping those who desperately need it; Like the victims and their families who are left suffering for the rest of their lives.

No, I really don't act like that. If you read my posts you will see that I don't advocate crime or criminals, nor do I think we just randomly kill prisoners either. But you and I, BY, I suspect will never be able to agree on this. Or even agree to disagree. Death is death and murder is murder, plain and simple, in my book, be it abortion or state-mandated killing (which is what capital punishment really is).

There is available a multitude of data and statistics to prove that executions aren't cheaper than life in prison or rehabilitation. There is also a multitude of data to say otherwise.....

I deal with families in need as part of my job running a high school conference of an international charity organization. We've worked with everyone from teen mothers to former prisoners. I would never attempt to minimize what they have experienced as victims, but I still don't think state-mandated killing is effective. It doesn't stop violent crime and if anything it perpetuates the cycle of violence. It's like hitting your child because he hit another child...

[Heracles 417]

No, I really don't act like that. If you read my posts you will see that I don't advocate crime or criminals, nor do I think we just randomly kill prisoners either. But you and I, BY, I suspect will never be able to agree on this. Or even agree to disagree. Death is death and murder is murder, plain and simple, in my book, be it abortion or state-mandated killing (which is what capital punishment really is).

There is available a multitude of data and statistics to prove that executions aren't cheaper than life in prison or rehabilitation. There is also a multitude of data to say otherwise.....

I deal with families in need as part of my job running a high school conference of an international charity organization. We've worked with everyone from teen mothers to former prisoners. I would never attempt to minimize what they have experienced as victims, but I still don't think state-mandated killing is effective. It doesn't stop violent crime and if anything it perpetuates the cycle of violence. It's like hitting your child because he hit another child...

The status quo appeasement clearly is not working either. Appeasement does not stop the ####### that is going on in America. Like an 8 month old child being killed a few weeks ago due to drive by. As was a young guy when he asked the owner of a double parked car to move, so he could get out. This one of a handful of murders every week. What should we do in these cases, just let the murders live in prison. In a prison where the prisoners have more rights and luxuries than many on the streets. But hey, when it comes to prisoners we are all woried about treating them humanely. When it comes to fetuses then it is a case of #### em. Let the girl choose right. Choose like some animal with no conscience.

Abortion for me is an ethical issue, not a religious one. While I think it should be available for numerous reasons, it certainly should not be another easy way out for kids. It is not a contraception and should never be allowed to be promoted or used as one. Otherwise where do we draw the line in society.

Simple. However much I agree or disagree with abortion (it's irrelevant anyways), it's the woman's body, not mine, no one else's. Her body, her choice. In the death penalty, however much I value or don't value justice or vengeance, the fact that the government has and continues to convict innocent people tells me the system is flawed and has no purpose putting people to death itself representing all of us. One is the government's doing, the other is an individual's doing.

Suicide is also an independent choice however it is far more complicated and difficult to put a precise enough marker on when a person is sane or mentally ill. We've made it a point to suggest any behavior not performed by the masses is an illness. Then that would be used to stop a choice of ending one's own life from occurring.

This anything goes status quo does not seem to be working to well for the United States, far from it actually. Whereas the countries with the highest standard of living tend to draw the line somewhere. The results speaks for itself. I have never ever heard someone from an OECD nation say I wish we could have the first amendment or separation of church and state, where one is basically aloud to piss on the other person's beliefs and views. Quite the contrary actually.

Edited September 22, 2008 by Aficionado

[IAMX 3,055]

This anything goes status quo does not seem to be working to well for the United States, far from it actually. Whereas the countries with the highest standard of living tend to draw the line somewhere. The results speaks for itself. I have never ever heard someone from an OECD nation say I wish we could have the first amendment or separation of church and state, where one is basically aloud to piss on the other person's beliefs and views. Quite the contrary actually.

Well, given people already piss on others rights based upon beliefs and views which you're clearly trying to give too much credence toward, what the OECD nations say really wouldn't mean sh!t.

[Scott & Lai 12]

While we're bringing up abortion and gay rights...if you're talking about Pro Life issues, let's also lump Capital Punishment in there.

It rankles me to see people b!tch about abortion yet not bat an eye at capital punishment. Either you are pro life or you aren't. Don't tell me there's a difference because life is life. When you start saying one is more important than the other, then you are playing God. I do believe there's only one God in my religion who has the right to that judgment. If one believes in the New Testament then I don't know how one can justify this.

From the New Testament, specifically Romans 13:

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

"Bearing the sword" is a clear referrence to the death penalty. This is just one example from the New Testament.

I imagine we'll have to agree to disagree as most people outside of my faith community anyway, don't agree with my views on capital punishment and abortion. In fact, most Christians I know, are anti-abortion and pro-capital punishment. Most Democrats I know are pro-choice and anti-death penalty.It boggles my mind.

yes I noticed that too, most republicans and or christians are as you said, anti abortion and pro CP, and most democrats are pro choice, anti death penalty, and I alwys wondered why that was.... pretty interesting!

Being anti abortion and anti CP based on the idea that all human life is sacred at least makes sense on the face of it. Otoh, I can't see the logical sense in being for the killing of an innocent baby based simply on its location (inside its mother versus outside) while being against executing someone who has unjustly killed someone.

[IAMX 3,055]

I can't see the logical sense in being for the killing of an innocent baby based simply on its location (inside its mother versus outside) while being against executing someone who has unjustly killed someone.

If this is your logic you're not arguing against pro-choice, but merely a stance on "killing innocent babies".

Who here is pro "killing innocent babies"? I venture nigh zero compared to pro-choice.

Edited September 22, 2008 by SRVT

[PlatyPius 5]

I can't see the logical sense in being for the killing of an innocent baby based simply on its location (inside its mother versus outside) while being against executing someone who has unjustly killed someone.

If this is your logic you're not arguing against pro-choice, but merely a stance on "killing innocent babies".

Who here is pro "killing innocent babies"? I venture nigh zero compared to pro-choice.

It's part of the whole smear campaign. Pro-Choice sounds intelligent, accommodating, and only says that the person supports the right of other people to choose. That isn't "evil" enough for the Pro-Lifers. They should technically be called the "Anti-Choicers" or "No Choicers". That keeps the actual issue on a level playing field. Pro-Choice people are not necessarily pro-abortion. I for one am Pro-Choice as a whole, but would not want Mags to have an abortion. The issue is about the right of the mother to decide if she is able, ready and willing to have a child. "We" say it is up to her. "They" say it is up to them.

[nowhereman 1]

I can't see the logical sense in being for the killing of an innocent baby based simply on its location (inside its mother versus outside) while being against executing someone who has unjustly killed someone.

If this is your logic you're not arguing against pro-choice, but merely a stance on "killing innocent babies".

Who here is pro "killing innocent babies"? I venture nigh zero compared to pro-choice.

It's part of the whole smear campaign. Pro-Choice sounds intelligent, accommodating, and only says that the person supports the right of other people to choose. That isn't "evil" enough for the Pro-Lifers. They should technically be called the "Anti-Choicers" or "No Choicers". That keeps the actual issue on a level playing field. Pro-Choice people are not necessarily pro-abortion. I for one am Pro-Choice as a whole, but would not want Mags to have an abortion. The issue is about the right of the mother to decide if she is able, ready and willing to have a child. "We" say it is up to her. "They" say it is up to them.

I'm for the death penalty in cases where the crime was particularly heinous & the evidence is overwhelming (don't want to execute the wrong guy). I'm also Pro Choice under certain conditions (like the mother was raped, etc). If she gets pregnant under "normal" circumstances and doesn't want the kid she can put the baby up for adoption.

Edit: I also wouldn't have people on death row for years... the guy (or gal) gets one appeal & if he/she loses it they are executed exactly a year after being found guilty.

Edited September 22, 2008 by nowhereman

[Ban Hammer 13,355]

After the elections, I'm thinking about how the rioting will go. Does everyone know where they will be rioting yet?

not in my yard, i'll have everything loaded.