Our Fairy Tale is Over

[JenT 0]

I'm sorry to say this, but IMO this is definately a bridge where there is too much water flowing underneath it too rapidly.

One of your daughters asked you why this (the divorce) had to happen again. Therefore I wonder if you are worrying excessively about 'putting them through' whatever it is that has been happening in your household. Which 'thing' is worse to put them through?

I went through a very verbally abusive and emotionally manipulative relationship for a very long time. So there ARE some things in your and David's relationship that concern me.

On the other hand, there are other things you write which make me wonder if your defenses aren't up unnecessarily too high. This happens sometimes to those of us who have been down a difficult road.

You're right.... my defenses are up very high... I don't know any way around this. We've beaten this bush to death and nothing has changed. I truly believe that we are inherently incompatible. He is not interested in even meeting me half way. He's just not happy here, Becc, and he wants to leave.

As far as what's worse for the girls.... verbal abuse and the continuing battlefield in this house is worse than divorce. Never knowing what to expect when they come home from school... not wanting to have their friends over lest they be embarrassed by something nasty that they overhear David saying to me... seeing me cry... why put them through that anymore? Why put myself through that anymore? They've lost respect for David, as have I. I don't know of any way to rebound from that.

[tom&tata 2]

Will it hurt you more if you try to extend peace to him & he refuses? Will it make it easier for you to let go if you do that?

I doubt he would refuse... he has been trying to be reasonable and is just staying out of my way.

It's different approach for different people I would say. My husband never made peace with his ex-gf. He could not care less if he ever had in contact with her anymore. It worked for him.

I would say do whatever makes you feel better - if making peace with him is a way to let go, you will be able to do that in your own time. Now, it might be too soon.

[rebeccajo 14]

If he is unhappy, then he is unhappy. Some people don't know how to make the best of a situation until it does turn around. And some people are just inherently miserable and nothing will ever satisfy them. I have no way of knowing if David is this type of person or if he's just having a very difficult time adjusting.

It's sad if this is not a case of being inherently compatible, but instead a couple of people who had different expectations on different timetables.

[JenT 0]

I wouldn't categorize David as 'inherently miserable'. I would categorize him as a 'glass is half empty' person and one who cannot see beyond the past. As a result, he is never able to really forgive (himself or others) and move on. He has freely admitted that to me. He does not 'see' hope for the future based on the issues he's had with adjustment. He doesn't 'see' how he can get past them.

I will always have children and a career, we would have been living in this town for *at least* 5 more years, and this town will never have the sort of culture/nightlife/etc that he was used to in Germany. There would always have been an ocean between him and his daughter, and the friends/family he left behind. I have a house and vehicles which require maintenance, animals which require attention, and we're essentially a one-income household. Any discussion with me, or with the therapist, about these issues he has miscontrued as manipulation... and he thinks that we don't really (how could we possibly) understand his side of things, no matter how much we repeat them back to him.

He doesn't feel as if he's been a priority but he hasn't given our life together a chance to settle into some sort of normalcy. We would go a week, at most, without some big blow up and then we'd be in seperate corners for God-knows-how-long... the intimacy disappeared along with the respect, and the verbal abuse took over because of his frustration. He lives in his own little world, and in it, HE is the center of attention and should not have to do any more 'work' than he feels like doing. He was unwilling to assume any responsibility or be any sort of partner... how does someone cope with all of that? Answer: not well.

[Yaads 0]

Jen - although I won't always have the right words to say to make you feel better please know that I will always be here to give you a big hug

[pushbrk 12,883]

I wouldn't categorize David as 'inherently miserable'. I would categorize him as a 'glass is half empty' person and one who cannot see beyond the past. As a result, he is never able to really forgive (himself or others) and move on. He has freely admitted that to me. He does not 'see' hope for the future based on the issues he's had with adjustment. He doesn't 'see' how he can get past them.

I will always have children and a career, we would have been living in this town for *at least* 5 more years, and this town will never have the sort of culture/nightlife/etc that he was used to in Germany. There would always have been an ocean between him and his daughter, and the friends/family he left behind. I have a house and vehicles which require maintenance, animals which require attention, and we're essentially a one-income household. Any discussion with me, or with the therapist, about these issues he has miscontrued as manipulation... and he thinks that we don't really (how could we possibly) understand his side of things, no matter how much we repeat them back to him.

He doesn't feel as if he's been a priority but he hasn't given our life together a chance to settle into some sort of normalcy. We would go a week, at most, without some big blow up and then we'd be in seperate corners for God-knows-how-long... the intimacy disappeared along with the respect, and the verbal abuse took over because of his frustration. He lives in his own little world, and in it, HE is the center of attention and should not have to do any more 'work' than he feels like doing. He was unwilling to assume any responsibility or be any sort of partner... how does someone cope with all of that? Answer: not well.

Sounds like you have a good handle on understanding the situation and challenges.

What do you wish you (collectively) would have done differently?

[JenT 0]

What do you wish you (collectively) would have done differently?

That's a good question. Let me give it some thought and I'll answer in a while.

Jen

[William33 110]

What do you wish you (collectively) would have done differently?

That's a good question. Let me give it some thought and I'll answer in a while.

Jen

I will offer my perspective that may be totally unrelated, but in my mind, it makes sense in this situation. Hopefully Jen, it will help you my friend.

Before meeting my Indonesian wife, I had been married for 12 years to an American woman. When we first met and decided to marry, all the stars were aligned, or so I thought. Over 12 years time, we both changed in terms of maturity, beliefs and life perspective. Sadly, that relationship resulted in a harsh divorce. There were children involved, the saddest part of the equation.

When people meet and fall in love from different countries, I believe this negative effect can occur in exponential fashion, given the significant differences in culture and circumstances, which the beneficiary is subjected to in this type of relationship.

Sometimes the adjustment can be made successfully, sometimes not. Visa Journey’s are a gamble for sure and are not for the faint of heart.

Jen, you gave it your all and sadly, it did not work out. Never forget that your old friends on VJ are here for you always.

William

[JenT 0]

What do you wish you (collectively) would have done differently?

That's a good question. Let me give it some thought and I'll answer in a while.

Jen

Things I would have done differently… well…. For starters, I would have made time for a honeymoon. His daughter was here from Germany and my family was here for the wedding…. Then came the holidays and money was tight, so we never took a trip together. The closest we got to being away (and alone) on a trip was to Chicago. I had a business meeting there so we drove and spent an extra day walking around. I regret that we did not take more time to be away from the house, alone.

David had his own room in our finished basement which was intended to be his space. Until he arrived, I used it for extra storage. Some of the things I wanted to save, some give away, some were fit for eBay. There was other organizing I needed to do in the unfinished areas to make room for all of that stuff and I only had time to work on it a little at a time but it was not fast enough for David... so he always bemoaned not having his own 'real' space. Same with closet room. So he never had his things in one place. He's obsessive about many things, his clothes being one of them. Ironing was always a priority. So…. Instead of watching videos and spending time with him when we could make the time, I guess I should have been cleaning the basement… Did he offer to help? Nope. Having space he could call his own was important.

I have quite a collection of stuff for eBay, actually, and since he wasn't working for the first 18 months of his being here, I asked him to look into it and see what we could do to earn some extra money. Never happened. But having a job sooner would have helped him feel as though he were contributing more, would have given him a reason to be out of the house, and would have helped him make some social contacts. Hindsight being 20/20, he should have updated his resume and begun looking for jobs here LONG BEFORE he arrived. But again, since he admits he can only concentrate on one thing at a time, he wouldn't have been able to do that and get ready for his move at the same time.

There's a book called The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman. I'm a firm believer in the theories he presents. The idea is that everyone has their own 'love language' that makes them feel special and loved. If we are oblivious to the other's language, we miss the mark and may 'think' we are showing love for that person when in reality, they do not perceive it that way at all. My love language is 'acts of service'. I like to know that my partner is just as willing to commit sweat equity as I am… and that frees up more time to be together and do things we really want to do together. David's love language is 'quality time'. He's very touchy-feely and wants to be the center of attention. So you can imagine that the more one has to do in terms of tasks around the house, the less time/energy there is for quality time. David commented often that he felt like he was being treated like 'Cinderella' when dishes were left in the sink. No one expected him to do them… it would have been nice had he done them but no one asked… but he didn't do the dishes out of spite. He'd do his own dishes and leave the rest. So you can see how things just spiraled…. It wasn't as if I was asking him to build an addition onto the house. Simply changing a light bulb or a roll of toilet paper without being asked would have sufficed.

I would have made more of an effort to find something for us to do that was 'just ours', like bowling or ballroom dancing. The lack of time together really put a strain on the relationship. That time was even more exacerbated because I was SO busy, and he was not busy at all…..

He was very sensitive about the kids and resentful of the time I'd spend with them. He was also very critical of my parenting… I'm not sure what I could have done in that space. My kids are a priority…. He knew that. He has a daughter of his own so I 'thought' he'd understand. But as I said, I learned that his idea of parenting was VERY different from mine. We should have made it a priority for him to visit his daughter. Seeing her once a year was not enough. But again, with money being tight and him not working, even if I used frequent flyer miles to get him there, he still had to afford to BE there….

I tried to support his music interests as much as possible. There was a lot of music we agreed on and a lot we didn't. As I said, his muse for playing his saxophone vanished once he arrived here, and I was at fault. I encouraged him to practice but there was always an excuse. I made contacts for him which he didn't follow up on… he has a very arrogant attitude when it comes to music - what he will play, who he will play with. As I said, we are not in the jazz capital of the world. I'm not sure what else I could have done to support his hobby.

As far as schedules went, he complained that he never knew what was going one, so I would sit down and go through the weeks one by one. It got to the point where he didn't want to sit down together anymore because the calendar activities were all mine and the girls… his calendar was blank. What was I supposed to do about that?

I could have tried to be more patient about his questions and the fact that I'd have to answer them 5 times a day… I was frustrated and thought that a 51-year-old man who was 'worldly' and spoke the same language as I (although now that is quite debatable) would pick up on things a little faster than he did. I truly felt like I had another child in the house and that was one of the specific things that I told him I DIDN'T want before we got married… another child in the house. I know some of the small things made him feel so inferior… at first it was a joke that I could do 'everything', but then it ceased to be a joke and grew to be a huge blow to his ego.

I would have insisted upon joint counseling as soon as he arrived… with a therapist I had no history with…. A fresh start, so to speak. And I would have sought a male therapist so that he had someone he might better be able to relate to...

I've hesitated posting this because I have really tried to refrain from appearing as though I am 'trashing' David…. That's not my intent. These are some of the things I could have had control over…. However, I can't change who he is, how motivated he is, or how he communicates…. All of these 'hindsight being 20/20' things may have made a difference, or they may have just prolonged the inevitable.

What do you wish you (collectively) would have done differently?

That's a good question. Let me give it some thought and I'll answer in a while.

Jen

I will offer my perspective that may be totally unrelated, but in my mind, it makes sense in this situation. Hopefully Jen, it will help you my friend.

Before meeting my Indonesian wife, I had been married for 12 years to an American woman. When we first met and decided to marry, all the stars were aligned, or so I thought. Over 12 years time, we both changed in terms of maturity, beliefs and life perspective. Sadly, that relationship resulted in a harsh divorce. There were children involved, the saddest part of the equation.

When people meet and fall in love from different countries, I believe this negative effect can occur in exponential fashion, given the significant differences in culture and circumstances, which the beneficiary is subjected to in this type of relationship.

Sometimes the adjustment can be made successfully, sometimes not. Visa Journey’s are a gamble for sure and are not for the faint of heart.

Jen, you gave it your all and sadly, it did not work out. Never forget that your old friends on VJ are here for you always.

William

Thank you William.... you were one of my first true friends here on VJ and I appreciate your being here for me.

Jen

[*JG* 2]

What do they say....it is better to have loved and have lost then to never have loved at all. You just never know till you take that chance.

Not every relationship is meant to be or to last. But, if you are able to take something out of it....some lesson....some hope.....some dream.....just some positive experiences....I think that means it was worth it.

[Mags 112]

Jen, just letting you know that I have been reading this and I think you are actually handling this really well. You probably don't think you are, but the way you write things down here in such a clear fashion is admirable. You are open and willing to hear other points of view and thats what makes you different to many who post in this section of the forum. Many only read what they want to read and ignore the rest.

You are willing to look deeper within yourself for answers.

My point of view on why you are crying over the silliest things is it's not only because of the break up, you are mourning for what life you thought you were going to have with this man. That path of your life now seems closed and therefore you are grieving for what might have been.

With regards to keeping in touch with David: do you think it will make things harder to deal with by staying in touch? Would the break up be easier with no contact?

Huge hugs for you, as always. (((((Jen)))))

[pushbrk 12,883]

Things I would have done differently… well…. For starters, I would have made time for a honeymoon. His daughter was here from Germany and my family was here for the wedding…. Then came the holidays and money was tight, so we never took a trip together. The closest we got to being away (and alone) on a trip was to Chicago. I had a business meeting there so we drove and spent an extra day walking around. I regret that we did not take more time to be away from the house, alone. ..... snip

The main reason I asked the question was because from your other writings, I had the impression you would have some meaningful thoughts on the subject. You did/do.

Blended families are always a huge challenge as we all know. I snipped the rest just to conserve space but what I was thinking before your answer was that there were probable things the two of you could have done in preparation early on that could have made a big difference. Notice I said "the two of you". While your response was introspective, honest and pretty comprehensive, it concentrated mostly on what you had control over rather than what the two of you could have done differently. He's as responsible for what was and wasn't done as you are.

Understanding and managing expectations is pretty difficult in almost any relationship for various reasons. If the rest of us, including those still separated, can learn from your story, it would seem to be the need to put a greater focus on understanding, setting and managing expectations during the time preceding our time living together.

Honeymoons are important. I had the luxury of needing to move to a larger place only a few days before my wife and daughter's arrival. As a result, I unpacked as little as possible and left closet arrangement, kitchen setup and most other household arranging to my wife, rather than having to make space in my home for her. This was a great blessing most don't have.

Fortunately, we were able to have two short honeymoon-like visits in China after our marriage there. To this day, there are still "fitting them into my life" issues we face and no shortage of problems managing expectations, mostly due to difficulties in communication. We've been fortunate, but it's not easy. Neither of us thought it would be.

Thanks for sharing your story. I hope it helps you to do so.

[JenT 0]

What do they say....it is better to have loved and have lost then to never have loved at all. You just never know till you take that chance.

Not every relationship is meant to be or to last. But, if you are able to take something out of it....some lesson....some hope.....some dream.....just some positive experiences....I think that means it was worth it.

Very true, Kelly.... I learned early on that the best way to repeat the same mistakes is by not understanding the sequence of events leading up to them. I also learned that every relationship teaches us more about ourselves and what we need in a partner/friend. Those needs are also very dynamic because we change over time too.

This may sound silly, but after my divorce, I created a list of qualities that I DID NOT want in my next relationship. Since that sounded too negative, I turned the list into a positive.... of course, such an ideal person does not exist, but I'd hoped the list would keep me from making bad decisions in the 'heat' of the moment. There were also some things on that list that I was more willing to compromise on than others... The list is very personal and it's not in any sort of 'priority order' but here's an excerpt:

I don't want someone who needs a mommy, a sister, a housekeeper, or a best buddy. I need an equal partner who can share intimately on every level of life. No one wants to be taken for granted and every relationship needs to be nurtured and given sufficient priority such that one always knows where they stand with the other.

I don't want someone who is dependent upon me for happiness. I need someone who can create their own happiness and feel comfortable sharing that with me.

I didn't compare every relationship to that list, or give 'grades' based on compatibility, but rather used it as guide for myself. I did share the list with David as our relationship progressed and he did seem to have many of the qualities I was looking for in a partner. I now know that much of it was because I 'wished' it so...

And based on this failed relationship, I will be re-visiting that list and probably revising it, again. I've learned that more time needs to elapse in a relationship to know whether my needs would really be met. I encouraged David to think about the things that he needed... not necessarily to write them as I did, but to be sure I was really The One. He/We didn't spend enough time thinking/talking that through.

[JenT 0]

Jen, just letting you know that I have been reading this and I think you are actually handling this really well. You probably don't think you are, but the way you write things down here in such a clear fashion is admirable. You are open and willing to hear other points of view and thats what makes you different to many who post in this section of the forum. Many only read what they want to read and ignore the rest.

You are willing to look deeper within yourself for answers.

My point of view on why you are crying over the silliest things is it's not only because of the break up, you are mourning for what life you thought you were going to have with this man. That path of your life now seems closed and therefore you are grieving for what might have been.

With regards to keeping in touch with David: do you think it will make things harder to deal with by staying in touch? Would the break up be easier with no contact?

Huge hugs for you, as always. (((((Jen)))))

Hi Mags,

I'm glad you've been reading this.. your insight is important to me. You are correct about my grieving. Nothing but time will heal that... it's easier to keep him at arm's length, especially now, because I am very vulnerable. I do not want to be divorced, but neither of us is willing to maintain status quo... there are things were are both not willing to compromise on (my children being my example, his being his 'independence' and his desire to come and go as he pleases without any accountability whatsoever). I was alone for 3 years when we met, and he'd been alone for 9. Sharing a life as a married couple is difficult enough with that sort of history, and only amplified due to the culture shock/blending of families.

Who I am right now is not "me"... it's not the person I want to be. As I said, we bring out the worst in each other, and that's not a recipe for a successful relationship. I think it will make it harder to stay in touch... I'm afraid we might 'forget' what drove us apart in the first place, and I do not want to go through this again.

Jen

[JenT 0]

...what I was thinking before your answer was that there were probable things the two of you could have done in preparation early on that could have made a big difference. Notice I said "the two of you". While your response was introspective, honest and pretty comprehensive, it concentrated mostly on what you had control over rather than what the two of you could have done differently. He's as responsible for what was and wasn't done as you are...

I took this excerpt from what you wrote to explain a bit further... you're absolutely right in that we both contributed to the failure of this marrige. As I was writing my response, I was careful to include the things that I DID have control over because those are the only things I can speak of in all fairness. I've tried to represent David as fairly as I could but I will not speak for him in terms of what he thinks should have been different. My response did include things we both could have done differently and I am certain that he would not dispute them. Some of those things came up repetitively in our arguments so I felt comfortable sharing them with you here. Anything more would have been directed toward things that David DID have control over but chose not to act upon: his verbal abuse, lack of initiative, criticism, resentment, approach to his music, etc.. I cannot change who he is as a person and although he was always contrite after a blow up, his behavior never changed. I gave up accepting his apologies because I didn't consider them genuine. A genuine apology, IMHO, is followed by actions to support it.... otherwise the apology rings hollow.

The main thing that prompted me to finally file was the fact that not only did I see no changes but I saw no desire to make any changes.... had he been true to his word about not wanting a divorce and wanting to work on our relationship by backing up his words with actions, I would have kept trying.