U.S. denies Israel's Requests

[Uncle O 2]

The Syrians or the Lebanese don't have anything that can take down the Israeli planes. The Israeli airforce breaks the sound barrier regularly over Leb and ocassionally over Syria...with complete lack of fear. Jordan has a peace treaty with the Israelis, so they most likely won't violate that airspace.

I think the lobby is still there on the sidelies and we will see them come January.

lol hi Ramthawy dude , all i want is for the world to live in peace and get along with each other. I hope !

and hey , why you didnt come thats day Eh ? lol "Pepsi"

[palilover 1]

The Syrians or the Lebanese don't have anything that can take down the Israeli planes. The Israeli airforce breaks the sound barrier regularly over Leb and ocassionally over Syria...with complete lack of fear. Jordan has a peace treaty with the Israelis, so they most likely won't violate that airspace.

I think the lobby is still there on the sidelies and we will see them come January.

lol hi Ramthawy dude , all i want is for the world to live in peace and get along with each other. I hope !

and hey , why you didnt come thats day Eh ? lol "Pepsi"

you don't think hezballah can strike an israli plane? They sure knocked the ####### out of I think 2 ships 2 years ago.....the world never saw that coming.

Although...after that, I think if Israel were to get into it with Lebanon, they would make sure to hit a lot harder and quicker than before.....

[Uncle O 2]

The Syrians or the Lebanese don't have anything that can take down the Israeli planes. The Israeli airforce breaks the sound barrier regularly over Leb and ocassionally over Syria...with complete lack of fear. Jordan has a peace treaty with the Israelis, so they most likely won't violate that airspace.

I think the lobby is still there on the sidelies and we will see them come January.

lol hi Ramthawy dude , all i want is for the world to live in peace and get along with each other. I hope !

and hey , why you didnt come thats day Eh ? lol "Pepsi"

you don't think hezballah can strike an israli plane? They sure knocked the ####### out of I think 2 ships 2 years ago.....the world never saw that coming.

Although...after that, I think if Israel were to get into it with Lebanon, they would make sure to hit a lot harder and quicker than before.....

This is True 100 % .

[LRA 0]

Navy ships? Can't say I remember that. Seriously you think hizzbullah can touch a F16 or F18. They probably couldn't hit a toy plane. The Israeli airforce owns the skies in the ME...well except for the skies over Iraq.

I would NEVER justify it one bit....but the facts speak for themselves. The Arabs have outdated planes probably from WWII. And surface to air missles.....nothing there either. Maybe Ron Arad's plane was shot down...but that was like 20+ years ago.

[LRA 0]

The Syrians or the Lebanese don't have anything that can take down the Israeli planes. The Israeli airforce breaks the sound barrier regularly over Leb and ocassionally over Syria...with complete lack of fear. Jordan has a peace treaty with the Israelis, so they most likely won't violate that airspace.

I think the lobby is still there on the sidelies and we will see them come January.

lol hi Ramthawy dude , all i want is for the world to live in peace and get along with each other. I hope !

and hey , why you didnt come thats day Eh ? lol "Pepsi"

you don't think hezballah can strike an israli plane? They sure knocked the ####### out of I think 2 ships 2 years ago.....the world never saw that coming.

Although...after that, I think if Israel were to get into it with Lebanon, they would make sure to hit a lot harder and quicker than before.....

This is True 100 % .

Did you see Beruit after the last time they went at it? It was like a 20.1 Richter Scale earthquake hit lebanon. It will take years and years to rebuild Beruit ...what a waste...and what a beautiful city it had become. Almost back to it's days as the Paris of the ME.

[S and S 12]

Its all about Zionism ...! i don't think USA will do this at all .

palilover , there wil be no negotiations between Syria and Israel , because Iran get Syria`s back always .

so uhmm lets say Russia maybe , I agree with Nawal .

Syria would turn their back on Iran if they could get their land back so I wouldn't be so sure.

I definitly agree...given the chance I think Bashar will ** the Iranians to get the Golan back. Just like the cronie Arafat did in Oslo. There never was Pan-Arabism even though people and leaders have these grand ideas that it can still come about. It's everyone for themselves.

The thing is that Syria can't beat Israel on the ground or in the air and they know it. They ally themselves with Iran because that is the last holdout with any real threat to Israel. Egypt signed its peace treaty decades ago. Jordan signed theirs. Iraq is out of the game. Lebanon is still a mess. Syria has a chance to get its land back and I think Israel wants to secure that border so they can focus on Iran. Syria is mostly sunni and the president is neither sunni or shia so he doesn't have any real loyalty to Iran on the religious aspect. Syria has a lot to gain by signing a peace treaty with Isreal and not a lot to lose. The main contentions are that Syria harbors terrorists and isn't easily giving up on that. The other thing is water. Isreal wants to continue having water rights to areas in the Golan Heights and Syria wants it back. If they can work this out, I think the treaty could work. Which then leaves Israel free to deal with Iran without having to watch its back so much. I can't blame Israel for wanting to work that out. They have a lot to gain by it too.

[Nasturtium 500]

Navy ships? Can't say I remember that. Seriously you think hizzbullah can touch a F16 or F18. They probably couldn't hit a toy plane. The Israeli airforce owns the skies in the ME...well except for the skies over Iraq.

I would NEVER justify it one bit....but the facts speak for themselves. The Arabs have outdated planes probably from WWII. And surface to air missles.....nothing there either. Maybe Ron Arad's plane was shot down...but that was like 20+ years ago.

Shooting down a military jet and shooting/bombing a ship are two different tings... you may possess an explosive that would down a plane if it contacted it, but that's the problem right there-- contacting it.

OTOH, there is nothing to prevent Syria from making peace with Israel long enough to get what it wants and then re-grouping and coming back at them breaking a treaty. Israel has the best fire-power, but numbers really do speak. Syria wanted Lebanon back and basically got it... then Iran and Syria link up and if they can get a USA-free Iraq under Shi'ia control/influence/distraction to be a corridor, they've got a straight ground-route. Add that to the possibility of Russian arms help, and Israel is far-outnumbered while lulled into a security of a treaty. Of course, they would realize the treaty is being broken, but I don't see Israel being able to wipe out an army that large all on its own if someone wouldn't come and help.

The thing is that Syria can't beat Israel on the ground or in the air and they know it. They ally themselves with Iran because that is the last holdout with any real threat to Israel. Egypt signed its peace treaty decades ago. Jordan signed theirs. Iraq is out of the game. Lebanon is still a mess. Syria has a chance to get its land back and I think Israel wants to secure that border so they can focus on Iran. Syria is mostly sunni and the president is neither sunni or shia so he doesn't have any real loyalty to Iran on the religious aspect. Syria has a lot to gain by signing a peace treaty with Isreal and not a lot to lose. The main contentions are that Syria harbors terrorists and isn't easily giving up on that. The other thing is water. Isreal wants to continue having water rights to areas in the Golan Heights and Syria wants it back. If they can work this out, I think the treaty could work. Which then leaves Israel free to deal with Iran without having to watch its back so much. I can't blame Israel for wanting to work that out. They have a lot to gain by it too.

I think people forget this about Syria. The government doesn't have a religious unity with anyone-- but they do have goals and are not opposed to using whoever is handy to achieve them.

[S and S 12]

OTOH, there is nothing to prevent Syria from making peace with Israel long enough to get what it wants and then re-grouping and coming back at them breaking a treaty. Israel has the best fire-power, but numbers really do speak. Syria wanted Lebanon back and basically got it... then Iran and Syria link up and if they can get a USA-free Iraq under Shi'ia control/influence/distraction to be a corridor, they've got a straight ground-route. Add that to the possibility of Russian arms help, and Israel is far-outnumbered while lulled into a security of a treaty. Of course, they would realize the treaty is being broken, but I don't see Israel being able to wipe out an army that large all on its own if someone wouldn't come and help.

Good point and I agree that could happen though I hope it doesn't. It is the one major concern I have about the US pulling out of Iraq. I want to see Iraq keep itself together and prosper, not fall into the wrong hands or be misused.

[Nasturtium 500]

OTOH, there is nothing to prevent Syria from making peace with Israel long enough to get what it wants and then re-grouping and coming back at them breaking a treaty. Israel has the best fire-power, but numbers really do speak. Syria wanted Lebanon back and basically got it... then Iran and Syria link up and if they can get a USA-free Iraq under Shi'ia control/influence/distraction to be a corridor, they've got a straight ground-route. Add that to the possibility of Russian arms help, and Israel is far-outnumbered while lulled into a security of a treaty. Of course, they would realize the treaty is being broken, but I don't see Israel being able to wipe out an army that large all on its own if someone wouldn't come and help.

Good point and I agree that could happen though I hope it doesn't. It is the one major concern I have about the US pulling out of Iraq. I want to see Iraq keep itself together and prosper, not fall into the wrong hands or be misused.

Well, and strategically, wouldn't that be the way to go for an Iranian army? Because if Iran wanted to wipe out the government of Israel (we're talking hypotheticals here based on terrain and climate), isn't it easier to cross Iraq and pass through Syria and then down into Israel... I'm thinking temperatures and water availability is making that much more attractive a prospect than passing through Jordan... Also, it's much easier to hide along the way. Turkey would work too, but take a bit more work in the coercing department.

[S and S 12]

OTOH, there is nothing to prevent Syria from making peace with Israel long enough to get what it wants and then re-grouping and coming back at them breaking a treaty. Israel has the best fire-power, but numbers really do speak. Syria wanted Lebanon back and basically got it... then Iran and Syria link up and if they can get a USA-free Iraq under Shi'ia control/influence/distraction to be a corridor, they've got a straight ground-route. Add that to the possibility of Russian arms help, and Israel is far-outnumbered while lulled into a security of a treaty. Of course, they would realize the treaty is being broken, but I don't see Israel being able to wipe out an army that large all on its own if someone wouldn't come and help.

Good point and I agree that could happen though I hope it doesn't. It is the one major concern I have about the US pulling out of Iraq. I want to see Iraq keep itself together and prosper, not fall into the wrong hands or be misused.

Well, and strategically, wouldn't that be the way to go for an Iranian army? Because if Iran wanted to wipe out the government of Israel (we're talking hypotheticals here based on terrain and climate), isn't it easier to cross Iraq and pass through Syria and then down into Israel... I'm thinking temperatures and water availability is making that much more attractive a prospect than passing through Jordan... Also, it's much easier to hide along the way. Turkey would work too, but take a bit more work in the coercing department.

That is a good point. I had thought of Iran using Iraq, but I hadn't thought of them going through Syria. That really is disturbing to think about. I noticed a lot of Iranian tourists there when I visited last. They were everywhere.

Anyway, the sad part is that Syria could really prosper if they just gave up their vendetta against Israel. There could be a lot to gain by having peace. The only thing that I could see that would hurt Syria by peace with Israel is the terrorist groups. I think the only thing holding terrorists back in Syria is that the government doesn't mess with them so long as the groups don't attack on Syrian soil.

[Nasturtium 500]

That is a good point. I had thought of Iran using Iraq, but I hadn't thought of them going through Syria. That really is disturbing to think about. I noticed a lot of Iranian tourists there when I visited last. They were everywhere.

Anyway, the sad part is that Syria could really prosper if they just gave up their vendetta against Israel. There could be a lot to gain by having peace. The only thing that I could see that would hurt Syria by peace with Israel is the terrorist groups. I think the only thing holding terrorists back in Syria is that the government doesn't mess with them so long as the groups don't attack on Syrian soil.

I love hypothetical conversations about strategy.

From what I understand, Syria is basically self-sufficient, aren't they? They have their own oil, own refineries, own factories, great climate, and really are set up quite well for independance. I imagine this helps them in their foreign policies since independance and non-reliance on others would basically mean you wouldn't care who stopped trading with you, etc. I agree about terrorism/Syria.. and also would add probably their allowance of support and support they give themselves probably keeps people out. Also, they have a pretty no-nonsense tortuous reputation for dealing with people they catch, fates worth than death and all... I can see that keeping the faint of heart on their good side.

I think if Syria were properly motivated, they would let an Iranian army pass through and that Iran probably would respect the peace for common goals, do you? I mean, we're not talking any pan-Arabian anything, we're talking allies working for a common goal.. kind of like France, Uk, etc letting the USA pass through and base there during WWII, WWI.

ETA: also, jsut because the goal itself may be politcally motivated (or whatever the motivation may be) doesn't mean that will be the motivation passed on to the people doing the fighting by the upper-ups. The Crusades is a great example of that, basically unifying a huge group of people across the countries of Europe under religious auspices for mostly the foot soldiers, although motivations for the nobles would be different. That's why I was thinking about the basic "Shi'ia corridor" that could be created by an Iraq which somehow was disorganized enough or just plain under Shi'ia control.

Edited September 12, 2008 by julianna

[Nasturtium 500]

Syria and Lebanon are technically not Shi'ia, but with the allowances given to Hezbollah, one could see them giving pass to the situation.

[S and S 12]

That is a good point. I had thought of Iran using Iraq, but I hadn't thought of them going through Syria. That really is disturbing to think about. I noticed a lot of Iranian tourists there when I visited last. They were everywhere.

Anyway, the sad part is that Syria could really prosper if they just gave up their vendetta against Israel. There could be a lot to gain by having peace. The only thing that I could see that would hurt Syria by peace with Israel is the terrorist groups. I think the only thing holding terrorists back in Syria is that the government doesn't mess with them so long as the groups don't attack on Syrian soil.

I love hypothetical conversations about strategy.

From what I understand, Syria is basically self-sufficient, aren't they? They have their own oil, own refineries, own factories, great climate, and really are set up quite well for independance. I imagine this helps them in their foreign policies since independance and non-reliance on others would basically mean you wouldn't care who stopped trading with you, etc. I agree about terrorism/Syria.. and also would add probably their allowance of support and support they give themselves probably keeps people out. Also, they have a pretty no-nonsense tortuous reputation for dealing with people they catch, fates worth than death and all... I can see that keeping the faint of heart on their good side.

I think if Syria were properly motivated, they would let an Iranian army pass through and that Iran probably would respect the peace for common goals, do you? I mean, we're not talking any pan-Arabian anything, we're talking allies working for a common goal.. kind of like France, Uk, etc letting the USA pass through and base there during WWII, WWI.

ETA: also, jsut because the goal itself may be politcally motivated (or whatever the motivation may be) doesn't mean that will be the motivation passed on to the people doing the fighting by the upper-ups. The Crusades is a great example of that, basically unifying a huge group of people across the countries of Europe under religious auspices for mostly the foot soldiers, although motivations for the nobles would be different. That's why I was thinking about the basic "Shi'ia corridor" that could be created by an Iraq which somehow was disorganized enough or just plain under Shi'ia control.

From what I saw and know, Syria is mostly self-sufficient. They are able to grow most of the fruits and vegetables they need, they have coastal areas for fishing, they manufacture many of their own things like pepsi. They have oil, but it is expected that they will have to start importing within ten years as the amount of oil they are able to drill each year is on the decline.

Their reputation isn't a good one, but I think they feed off of the reputation Iraq and Sadam got. Difference being that Syria is definitely not as bad as Iraq. No check points inside the city of Damascus. People for the most part didn't walk around in total fear. There are some undertones of people knowing to watch themselves, but I can't say for sure there was any abject fear. Then again, who knows. They Syrians I know here in the US don't complain of how evil their government was if you did something bad, but they have a healthy respect for the authority.

The key is Syria being motivated. I think it would take a lot to motivate them to allow Iranian soldiers on their soil though. That could be risky for them as Iran could just keep Syria on its way to conquest. Of course this is all just hypothetical converstation anyway, lol.

[Nasturtium 500]

From what I saw and know, Syria is mostly self-sufficient. They are able to grow most of the fruits and vegetables they need, they have coastal areas for fishing, they manufacture many of their own things like pepsi. They have oil, but it is expected that they will have to start importing within ten years as the amount of oil they are able to drill each year is on the decline.

Their reputation isn't a good one, but I think they feed off of the reputation Iraq and Sadam got. Difference being that Syria is definitely not as bad as Iraq. No check points inside the city of Damascus. People for the most part didn't walk around in total fear. There are some undertones of people knowing to watch themselves, but I can't say for sure there was any abject fear. Then again, who knows. They Syrians I know here in the US don't complain of how evil their government was if you did something bad, but they have a healthy respect for the authority.

The key is Syria being motivated. I think it would take a lot to motivate them to allow Iranian soldiers on their soil though. That could be risky for them as Iran could just keep Syria on its way to conquest. Of course this is all just hypothetical converstation anyway, lol.

That's what I had heard about their self-sufficiency. I think Syria could be motivated, but like you said, it would take a lot. Syria has a bad reputation with its neighbors... not the country or the people, but the government. Every once in a while things go really sour between Syria and Jordan and Syria decides to imprison Jordanian students. My BIL was one of those and he refuses to leave Jordan to this day-- though that was over 20 years ago. He spent 6 months in a prison there and won't talk about what happened, although his family has seen glimpses of the scars he now has.

[Ban Hammer 13,501]

Navy ships? Can't say I remember that. Seriously you think hizzbullah can touch a F16 or F18. They probably couldn't hit a toy plane. The Israeli airforce owns the skies in the ME...well except for the skies over Iraq.

I would NEVER justify it one bit....but the facts speak for themselves. The Arabs have outdated planes probably from WWII. And surface to air missles.....nothing there either. Maybe Ron Arad's plane was shot down...but that was like 20+ years ago.

israel does not have f-18's.

a f-16 in ground attack can be taken down with a sa-7. throw a few of those up in the air and pilots will be too busy ducking and weaving to do anything.