No, Actually, It's that the Economy is Falling Apart

[Empress of Groovy 373]

It is ridiculous to think that there is a country where the majority are silenced yet the few call the shots.

That would be pretty much every country.

[IAMX 3,055]

So you don't think the U.S. government could violate freedom of religion but you think a lot of other (unknown) rights (from an older thread) are already threatened?

The founders could not, in their time, figure out every major civil rights and social issue, but they did guarantee the vocal rights of the minority, secularism, and freedoms. From this, clauses from the first amendment came forth, and likewise for other amendments.

If the government cannot discriminate against gays for handing out licenses, or having a homosexual person as a co-signer of a legal document, it makes no sense at all that gays cannot be handed marriage certificates. Additionally, it only takes an even minute understanding of science to understand homosexuality naturally occurs in the animal kingdom, and genetically. Not just sex, mind you, but companionship and attraction.

In court cases, a basis of rationality is needed in every circumstance. This is a fundamental of law.

The denial of marriage licenses to gays goes beyond the basis of rationality, and denies freedoms several U.S. amendments give to every single citizen of this country.

They haven't had a majority coalition. . . yet.

If one thinks about suppression of blacks and women, consider how many atheists and agnostics are in Congress and how many Atheist Presidents we have. In U.S. History, that number is, if not exactly, close to, zero. Even people who are or may have been agnostic had to make it seem like they were non-denominational or unitarian so much as not to piss off the religious right who insist one must be religious, namely, Christian, to run. You realize the difficulty Keith Ellison had in getting into office? Not from opposition, but this "terrorist" #### thrown his way because he's Muslim. Same stuff Obama is facing, but much worse than Obama, because 80%+ people know Obama is not Muslim.

Again, atheists, blacks and arabs aren't a majority in this nation so they can't do much. Every minority group wants their rights protected from the tranny of the majority but will they protect others when they are in power?

That's something to figure out when it's crossed.

I don't immediately think, well, that person is gay, I think I'll vote for them. If it were, I'd have every reason to vote for Obama, or even the McCain/Palin ticket. However, firsts for me take a backseat to rationality. Just because Obama is black doesn't mean, to me, that he's immediately qualified, or rational. However, it was a high criticism of mine that a black candidate never could even be President, so I'd have one less thing to complain about if it happened and he were President.

If people were indeed treated fairly and equally, there would not be such a push to do so. There are already gay Congressmen/women who have and are serving, and this hasn't signaled any sort of country degeneration. If anything, the religious right is undoing the progress this country has made in terms of freedoms and liberties because some are idealist agenda pushers when it comes to beliefs and applying them to other people.

[Heracles 417]

What is your obsession with that anyway. Who cares about marriage rights for anyone gay. The country has a lot more important issues to deal with than rights issues 24/7. Give them the dam rights and move on. Geeezzzz.

Hint: Blaming the white male is not a solution.

PS The founders of Google you are so fond of are not only white males but nerdy white.

PS^2 The majority of Americans who are religious are Christian. So gee I wonder why they would want a leader with similar beliefs.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Aficionado

[HAL 9000 96]

I'll put it another way. Considering most African Americans are about 5 or 6 generations off from being in Africa, I am sure we could trace back the roots of quite a number of people. I would love to see where their distance cousins and family members are living and their situations. While it is all good and dandy to talk about how bad slavery and segregation is, which absolutely no one is denying. Yet I would also love to see where and what conditions the majority of people would be living in. If people like Obama, Oprah, Will Smith, Mohamed Ali, Spike Lee, Jesse Jackson, Al Shaprton, ancestors had not been brought to America. This is only the only true test which would prove whether this worked out better for them or worse for them.

That is, if the slave trade had never happened and they had all stayed in Africa. For one thing, I know America would be a completely different country. Probably more of a UK, Canada, Australia / Europe.

Genealogy requires historical records to establish familial connection. I could be wrong - but I'd be very surprised if the slave trade kept the sort of detailed records that, say, Ellis Island does.

There are records out there. Al Rocker on the today show as able to track his past.

Al Roker did it... so can you.

[Heracles 417]

If people were indeed treated fairly and equally, there would not be such a push to do so. There are already gay Congressmen/women who have and are serving, and this hasn't signaled any sort of country degeneration. If anything, the religious right is undoing the progress this country has made in terms of freedoms and liberties because some are idealist agenda pushers when it comes to beliefs and applying them to other people.

The left is just as guilty of that. You beat on about this being America and not any other country, duh, but why not learn from nations that are doing something better than us. Why not look at the nations who have the highest standard of living and the greatest equality, aka community spirit, and learn from them. Yet you are suggesting their system is irreverent. Rather, the US should take up your proposed die religion die strategy.

Microsoft had that attitude hence why a crappy website like Google is beating bet them. You know the, we are incumbents and nobody can tell us what to do.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Aficionado

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

If you're bringing up Australia again as this supposedly shining example that should be followed - some consideration must be given to the rather controversial treatment that aborigines have received at the hands of successive governments.

There's controversy over there - and you know it.

[HAL 9000 96]

What is your obsession with that anyway. Who cares about marriage rights for anyone gay. The country has a lot more important issues to deal with than rights issues 24/7. Give them the dam rights and move on. Geeezzzz.

Hint: Blaming the white male is not a solution.

PS The founders of Google you are so fond of are not only white males but nerdy white.

PS^2 The majority of Americans who are religious are Christian. So gee I wonder why they would want a leader with similar beliefs.

I think that is what we've been trying to tell you all along.

[IAMX 3,055]

The left is just as guilty of that. You beat on about this being America and not any other country, duh, but why not learn from nations that are doing something better than us. Why not look at the nations who have the highest standard of living and the great equality and learn from them. Yet you are suggesting their system is irreverent.

Their Constitution is not ours, and their problem is not ours. While using relevant accords is useful in judicial interpretations, using other countries as a method of solving our own problems locally is naive at best because Americans refuse to own up to the problems they perpetuate, to start with. So it's a problem that must change from within, not from the imposition of some other country's views. If you've been here long enough you've seen how well Americans take other countries telling them how to deal with internal issues.

Microsoft had that attitude hence why a crappy website like Google is beating bet them. You know the, we are incumbents and nobody can tell us what to do.

Firstly, Microsoft makes desktop/laptop OS's that it makes it's bank from. Google does not sell an operating system on this platform, so they are not in competition there.

Microsoft and Google are primarily directly in competition in the advertising market, where Google is soundly beating Microsoft's a$$ (dollar signs for emphasis). Google also expanded into other areas, like, recently, browsers, but otherwise mapping systems, recently launching a satellite to improve their systems, and other areas like free e-mail, and many others. Moreover, Google is successful because they are wise and change with the times. Microsoft wouldn't change with the times, much like what happens in every facet of trading markets, either at all, or did and was too slow, so they are losing in most other markets.

Likewise, society changes, and, since you like to use evolution, evolves. The evolution is there is no rational Constitutional basis for gays being denied a state-sponsored service which is a marriage license, when the government does not discriminate based upon sexuality, or race, or gender, or anything. If this is false, they must be denied other critical state-sponsored services, like a drivers license.

If you're bringing up Australia again as this supposedly shining example that should be followed - some consideration must be given to the rather controversial treatment that aborigines have received at the hands of successive governments.

There's controversy over there - and you know it.

His excessive zeal and fondness for Australia and how much better it is than everywhere else makes me wonder why he bothered coming here.

Edited September 8, 2008 by SRVT

[HAL 9000 96]

Only 5-6 generations with the first 1-3 generations in a slave system that stripped them of a sense of identity to the African continent.

Someone needs to conduct some research to determine whether the majority of African Americans are better off here after slavery. Or whether they would be bettor off if they had never been sold, in many case by their own people, as slaves. If they would be better of in the various African countries. I rest my case and say we should compensate them all. Yes, every single dam person.

Some of you guys are seriously deluded and brainwashed by the liberal propaganda. You obviously cannot accept reality. You fail to acknowledge the historical link of violence within numerous cultures and its relation with their present day actions. You fail to acknowledge that certain cultures are behaving in a similar violent fashion in various parts of the world they have immigrated to. You only look at the US and disclaim their actions with a whitey, slavery and segregation is to blame. You deny the same cultures who, to this very day, are butchering one another in various parts of the world.

Of course some have established that the white man is solely to blame. Regardless of the time that has passed since he governed certain African nations or its people. Regardless of the condition this white man left those places in, to what they have become.

I ask you Maviwaro, is a white man to blame for a black male going on a drive by shooting killing a 8 month old baby. Is a white man to blame for a black male shooting another black male in front of his wife because he asked him to move his car, which was illegal parallel parked, so he could move his car..

That is also true - when people take umbridge at "Black Culture" they often forget that we have, for example, a Black History Month - because those people had to fight for recognition, and indeed for a collective identity.

Which people? The only people I hear mention it in the media is someone black when it comes to excuse something with a, "You just don't understand black culture". Yeah that must be it..

Well.... You.

For example.

Sorry lad, I never heard of "Black Culture" until it came out of a African American's mouth excusing racism.

Deluded? How about having the forbearance to have relevancy? (Which, btw, is the answer to your question above).

Other than that its more of the same from you- cultures (as you define them) that seem to have riches that only you see, yet performing incredible acts of violence wherever they go. Reality, indeed.

If people were indeed treated fairly and equally, there would not be such a push to do so. There are already gay Congressmen/women who have and are serving, and this hasn't signaled any sort of country degeneration. If anything, the religious right is undoing the progress this country has made in terms of freedoms and liberties because some are idealist agenda pushers when it comes to beliefs and applying them to other people.

The left is just as guilty of that. You beat on about this being America and not any other country, duh, but why not learn from nations that are doing something better than us. Why not look at the nations who have the highest standard of living and the greatest equality, aka community spirit, and learn from them. Yet you are suggesting their system is irreverent. Rather, the US should take up your proposed die religion die strategy.

Microsoft had that attitude hence why a crappy website like Google is beating bet them. You know the, we are incumbents and nobody can tell us what to do.

Ironically that these countries have nationalized services that 'people like you' tend to classify as socialist and, *sigh* left wingish.

[IAMX 3,055]

Ironically that these countries have nationalized services that 'people like you' tend to classify as socialist and, *sigh* left wingish.

No convenience at all to that, eh?

[alienlovechild 75]

If the government cannot discriminate against gays for handing out licenses, or having a homosexual person as a co-signer of a legal document, it makes no sense at all that gays cannot be handed marriage certificates. Additionally, it only takes an even minute understanding of science to understand homosexuality naturally occurs in the animal kingdom, and genetically. Not just sex, mind you, but companionship and attraction.

Gay marriage was only first recognized in the Netherlands in 2001 so don't blame it all on the U.S.. Only about 9 evil, (mostly) white countries recognize gay marriage. I wouldn't base policies on animal behavior or we'll get back to polygamy, pedophilia and bestiality for starters.

If one thinks about suppression of blacks and women, consider how many atheists and agnostics are in Congress and how many Atheist Presidents we have. In U.S. History, that number is, if not exactly, close to, zero. Even people who are or may have been agnostic had to make it seem like they were non-denominational or unitarian so much as not to piss off the religious right who insist one must be religious, namely, Christian, to run.

There are a few Jews in Congress and Liberman was the Democrtic VP nominee in 2004 and Romney is a Mormon (not considered Christian by some) so your Christian only premise is false. There's also a couple of Buddhists as well.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith...n_on_capit.html

If anything, the religious right is undoing the progress this country has made in terms of freedoms and liberties because some are idealist agenda pushers when it comes to beliefs and applying them to other people.

The facts say otherwise with far more interracial marriages, one the first countries (two states) recognizing gay marriage, first black president or female VP. . . there's plenty of "progress" so I don't see any rescinding of these trends. Btw, there are a lot of secular people who don't like minorities or gays and Christians preaching tolerance.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Believe it or not - Brother Boo-Yah classifies himself as a Federalist.

[HAL 9000 96]

Ironically that these countries have nationalized services that 'people like you' tend to classify as socialist and, *sigh* left wingish.

No convenience at all to that, eh?

Silence! That has nothing to do, for the people in those countries being so cool!

Its all about their innate culture.

[Heracles 417]

I think that is what we've been trying to tell you all along.

and I have been trying to tell you guys these issues are irrelevant and have been the downside of the United States since the 60's. This is why most other cities around the world are expanding and moving forward while American cities are 2nd world grade at best. Focus on the real issues and not the BS like rights.

Focus on creating jobs and getting people out pf poverty rather than blaming the white man.

For example:

Pentominium Dubai - 2,028 feet

Burj Dubai: 2,600 feet

This is the sort of stuff that not only gets people out of poverty but creates a hell of a lot of jobs and buzz for a city and brings a country into the 21st century.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Aficionado

[HAL 9000 96]

I think that is what we've been trying to tell you all along.

and I have been trying to tell you guys these issues are irrelevant and have been the downside of the United States since the 60's. This is why most other cities around the world are expanding and moving forward while American cities are 2nd world grade at best. Focus on the real issues and not the BS like rights.

Focus on creating jobs and getting people out pf poverty rather than blaming the white man.

For example:

Pentominium Dubai - 2,028 feet

Burj Dubai: 2,600 feet

This is the sort of stuff that not only gets people out of poverty but creates a hell of a lot of jobs and buzz for a city and brings a country into the 21st century.

Remember your rights next time someone violates them for you- should you be so lucky.

And still I find quite astonishing your deep knowledge of all things American.

And yes... the blame game (which you continue to peg as a *blame white man* issue) gets you nowhere. Move along. Create those jobs. Teach those DC kids all about those equal opportunities they have equal access to just like everyone else in Suburbia.